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  1. #21
    I believe the OP's point was totally lost because of the way he spoke of things.

    OP's initial post was somewhat offensive towards PvE warlocks by totally removing their say in the matter or simply making it feel like PvE has no regards towards the matter,regardless of the consequences it would impose the PvE warlock aspect if these changes were taken.

    I will try to correct his statement, in the way he intended.

    Affliction has been a core aspect of the warlock gameplay since times immemorial, though some stated that the OP wishes that other "viable" specs should be nerfed so that affliction should be changed or somewhat go back to the way it was , is not his actual intention.

    What he meant was, affliction has gone through a paradigm shift, where the multi dot / mobility / tankish'ness playstyle is no longer existent, instead now our dots are somewhat weak ( in regards to the current evolution of damage in general) , and the previous amount of "pressure" that affliction could produce has been halved or more , with it's core power shifting in design towards malefic grasp this has significantly reduced the multidot pressure, since channeling is considered taboo in pvp due to many reasons, primarily involved in a certain psychological weakness where interruption of the shadow school would be demeaning , and secondly totally demolishing the mobility that was previously held by affliction.

    Although many "old" warlocks have gotten used to the playstyle, this sudden change in mechanics simply feels weird, although it is refreshing ESPECIALLY in the PvE aspect, I do not think what the OP meant in regards of changes was implied in the way that it SHOULD be changed in that fashion, simply stated he wanted to say what he felt like affliction has lost and that he misses the previous playstyle, though his statement of change had drifted and his intention has gone amiss.

    To conclude, the OP meant that he fears for the incoming nerfs to demo and that our only viable spec ( although strange) might be demolished , leaving us with half broken specs and truly impossible mechanics to deal with in high rated pvp, which was asked by a change or fix to affliction so that the spec could be played again with it's previous intention and power.

    This does not mean that PvE affliction should be affected, he merely wanted the change to help PvP affliction without really touching the PvE aspect ( or so he thought with the changes he demanded), although those changes might not have had the intended ideal solution to the question at hand.
    Last edited by wholol; 2012-11-22 at 02:25 AM.

  2. #22
    Lol no ty.

    Btw, looking at the big pcture ain't a bad idea: incoming nerfs on Frost mages burst, Frost DK, wars and hunters. Healing will be tuned down as well.

    Hopefully this should smooth the differences between each spec.

    p.s.: i'd like to Q in 3v3 without ALWAYS been hard countered by warriors. Looks like a nightmare, no matter if i'm pvping with my priest or my lock, just a ton of wars training me all day long :\

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Gootgot View Post
    It would be worthless now.
    What exactly would you do with it ?

    Point of it was long multidot potential with mana drain in tank spec. Todays arena is about burst and cds.
    Sarcasm. 10chars

  4. #24
    Banned TheGravemind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wholol View Post
    I believe the OP's point was totally lost because of the way he spoke of things.

    OP's initial post was somewhat offensive towards PvE warlocks by totally removing their say in the matter or simply making it feel like PvE has no regards towards the matter,regardless of the consequences it would impose the PvE warlock aspect if these changes were taken.

    I will try to correct his statement, in the way he intended.

    Affliction has been a core aspect of the warlock gameplay since times immemorial, though some stated that the OP wishes that other "viable" specs should be nerfed so that affliction should be changed or somewhat go back to the way it was , is not his actual intention.

    What he meant was, affliction has gone through a paradigm shift, where the multi dot / mobility / tankish'ness playstyle is no longer existent, instead now our dots are somewhat weak ( in regards to the current evolution of damage in general) , and the previous amount of "pressure" that affliction could produce has been halved or more , with it's core power shifting in design towards malefic grasp this has significantly reduced the multidot pressure, since channeling is considered taboo in pvp due to many reasons, primarily involved in a certain psychological weakness where interruption of the shadow school would be demeaning , and secondly totally demolishing the mobility that was previously held by affliction.

    Although many "old" warlocks have gotten used to the playstyle, this sudden change in mechanics simply feels weird, although it is refreshing ESPECIALLY in the PvE aspect, I do not think what the OP meant in regards of changes was implied in the way that it SHOULD be changed in that fashion, simply stated he wanted to say what he felt like affliction has lost and that he misses the previous playstyle, though his statement of change had drifted and his intention has gone amiss.

    To conclude, the OP meant that he fears for the incoming nerfs to demo and that our only viable spec ( although strange) might be demolished , leaving us with half broken specs and truly impossible mechanics to deal with in high rated pvp, which was asked by a change or fix to affliction so that the spec could be played again with it's previous intention and power.

    This does not mean that PvE affliction should be affected, he merely wanted the change to help PvP affliction without really touching the PvE aspect ( or so he thought with the changes he demanded), although those changes might not have had the intended ideal solution to the question at hand.
    Although I wouldn't have worded it that way, that's essentially what I meant, yes. +1 kudos

  5. #25
    Mechagnome Kildragon's Avatar
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    What are these incoming demo pvp nerfs I keep hearing about? The only changes to demo I've seen are the doom buff and the meta auto attack removal. Hardly a pvp nerf and nothing crippling.

    OT: Affliction isn't broken, pvp design is broken. Affliction multi dotting wasn't destroyed it was just brought in line and for good reason. The issue is healer mana being through the roof, heals healing for too much in regards to health pools and damage, and defensive CDs being too prevalent. Last expansion, the current afflic design would have been amazingly strong which shows the issue doesn't lie with the spec.

    Multi dotting in general is not viable anymore. Dispels getting rid of all DoTs is huge as establishing pressure can be very hard. Cata afflic would've had the same problems now.

    Healers regen mana too fast which means they never stay oom. Multi dotting is about overwhelming your healers with spread damage so they go oom or can't keep up with the damage. Since they regen mana so fast it's nearly impossible to keep them oom. Watch the Shanghai championship VODs and pay attention to healer mana. They would dip really low but always regen with just a little bit of peeling.

    Another issue is the size of heals. Three GHW, DL, or regrowths top the entire team. "Rotting" is essentially pointless since getting the entire team to 50% isn't much of a victory with so few heals topping everyone. This destroys that entire facet of gameplay and again, cata affliction would've done just as poorly if not worse.

    Defensive CDs are yet another thing that lower the effectiveness of DoTs since they make people less healer reliant. Separating your kill target from the healer while low on health used to be an almost guaranteed kill but not anymore. It's all about 3-4 second burst since anything else isn't dangerous. The commentators used to consider a kill attempt to 30% very good, now they shrug at it.

    To make my point clear again, pvp design, especially heal design are the reason afflic isn't strong, not some change made in mop. Burst is the only way to go now and until that's changed afflic will be worthless. So please advocate for the right changes, not just changes in general without thinking it through.

  6. #26
    Kildragon pretty much nailed it. Healers and the mana-pool mechanics this XPac are in need of fixing.

    P.S. One thing I'd add on that list is getting our passive defenses back. Soul Link doesn't work for PvP and our Demon/Fel Armor change is crap IMO, leaving all of our defenses CD based.

  7. #27
    The Lightbringer Seezer's Avatar
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    There has to be a happy medium. But it also affects affliction's pve capabilities as well. There is no reason that a dot spec should not be strong in multidotting. But since so much dot damage is tied to MG and haunt, you're just wasting globals dotting more than two targets. And the fact that you're not MG'ing your main target while dotting other targets also hurts. Too much damage is tied to MG and Haunt, and that is the problem.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-22 at 08:47 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Kildragon View Post
    What are these incoming demo pvp nerfs I keep hearing about? The only changes to demo I've seen are the doom buff and the meta auto attack removal. Hardly a pvp nerf and nothing crippling.

    OT: Affliction isn't broken, pvp design is broken. Affliction multi dotting wasn't destroyed it was just brought in line and for good reason. The issue is healer mana being through the roof, heals healing for too much in regards to health pools and damage, and defensive CDs being too prevalent. Last expansion, the current afflic design would have been amazingly strong which shows the issue doesn't lie with the spec.

    Multi dotting in general is not viable anymore. Dispels getting rid of all DoTs is huge as establishing pressure can be very hard. Cata afflic would've had the same problems now.

    Healers regen mana too fast which means they never stay oom. Multi dotting is about overwhelming your healers with spread damage so they go oom or can't keep up with the damage. Since they regen mana so fast it's nearly impossible to keep them oom. Watch the Shanghai championship VODs and pay attention to healer mana. They would dip really low but always regen with just a little bit of peeling.

    Another issue is the size of heals. Three GHW, DL, or regrowths top the entire team. "Rotting" is essentially pointless since getting the entire team to 50% isn't much of a victory with so few heals topping everyone. This destroys that entire facet of gameplay and again, cata affliction would've done just as poorly if not worse.

    Defensive CDs are yet another thing that lower the effectiveness of DoTs since they make people less healer reliant. Separating your kill target from the healer while low on health used to be an almost guaranteed kill but not anymore. It's all about 3-4 second burst since anything else isn't dangerous. The commentators used to consider a kill attempt to 30% very good, now they shrug at it.

    To make my point clear again, pvp design, especially heal design are the reason afflic isn't strong, not some change made in mop. Burst is the only way to go now and until that's changed afflic will be worthless. So please advocate for the right changes, not just changes in general without thinking it through.
    Affliction multi dotting was not brought in line. Shadow priests destroy us in multidotting. While afflic is laughable.
    "1 in 4 Americans are skeptical on climate change...who gives a shit? That doesn't matter. You don't need other people's opinions on a fact. You may as well have a poll asking: Which number is bigger? 5 or 15? Do Owls exist? Are there hats?"

  8. #28
    Disclaimer : i couldn't care less for PVP.

    Please don't change a penny to the demonology tree.

    I've never been so happy playing my demo lock.

  9. #29
    Honestly OP, your ability to dissect the class is off a bit.

    Affliction has one issue in PvP, its not livability, its not damage, its dispel protection in the form of Unstable Affliction. A warlock can hold amazing pressure if his dots stay up, but as a disc priest I simply bubble and dispel constantly, it does no damage to me.

    The easiest fix for Affliction is to make the Glyph of Unstable Affliction baseline, it should crit and silence both the dispeller and the dispellee, in addition Unstable Affliction should be an instant cast, making Haunt, MG, and Drain Soul our only cast time abilities. This PvE change is a slight buff (for when you're reapplying UA) but not so much that its game breaking, saving maybe 5 full seconds off a six minute fight.

    It's simple, its quick, and it applies a lot more pressure considering losing 14% of my total life AND getting silenced is not the same as losing 14% of my life or 7% with a silence.
    Soulburn: Unstable Affliction. A boy can dream.

  10. #30
    Bloodsail Admiral Cassidin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyopz View Post
    Right, but this is a PvP oriented post. I really don't care about the PvE perspective personally since I don't understand why the iconic Warlock PvP spec since the creation of Warlocks must be crippled just so that you can enjoy pushing a few buttons during a monotonous boss encounter. You have Demonology and Destruction to play with, both of which are perfectly viable right now.
    First I totally take your point and understand where you are coming from. Having said that you do realise that there is a MUCH greater number of PVE players than there are (competitive) PVP players don't you? This game IS a PVE game with some PVP bolted on after all. From my personal standpoint I don't "mind" PVP when I am in the mood for it, although I am no good at it at all. However I am a PVE player. Not a great PVE player I admit - but I have fun and don't do TOO terribly. I have two warlocks and during most of Cata I just couldn't play them at all because I couldn't work out how to do any damage with them. In Wrath I was Affliction and although I tried destruction I hated it. I still don't like any spec apart from Affliction, why should I be forced to play a spec I hate - or stop playing my locks just so you can get what you want for PVP? I realise that if I was in a competitive raiding guild I would have to spec the way my guild wanted me to - but I am not. I am in a super casual guild that I started with friends years ago.

    What I mean is that neither you or I should have to play a spec we dont like because its the only viable one. They all should be viable for PVE and PVP. I realise that this is utopia but that's how it SHOULD be. Ruining a spec for PVE which is played by more people than PVP so that PVP can have that spec isnt a solution. One solution would be for all specs (of all classes) to work slightly differently in PVP than PVE - maybe change multipliers for example based on if you are in an arena or bg or not.

    Either way... as its always been.... Blizzard will not please both parties. One of us will always feel neglected. Its just the way of warcraft.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Brauhm View Post
    Honestly OP, your ability to dissect the class is off a bit.

    Affliction has one issue in PvP, its not livability, its not damage, its dispel protection in the form of Unstable Affliction. A warlock can hold amazing pressure if his dots stay up, but as a disc priest I simply bubble and dispel constantly, it does no damage to me.

    The easiest fix for Affliction is to make the Glyph of Unstable Affliction baseline, it should crit and silence both the dispeller and the dispellee, in addition Unstable Affliction should be an instant cast, making Haunt, MG, and Drain Soul our only cast time abilities. This PvE change is a slight buff (for when you're reapplying UA) but not so much that its game breaking, saving maybe 5 full seconds off a six minute fight.

    It's simple, its quick, and it applies a lot more pressure considering losing 14% of my total life AND getting silenced is not the same as losing 14% of my life or 7% with a silence.
    No, you're not completely right. Spread damage is at an all time low; the ability to "rot" teams is completely non-existent.

  12. #32
    I certainly agree that affliction could do with a facelift when it comes to pvp, but I see no reason to go neutering demonology in the process - it's hardly overpowered right now.

    " In exchange for nerfing Malefic Grasp's damage significantly, increase the damage of DoTs such as UA, Agony and Corruption significantly. Bring back multi-DoTing. Yes, this may increase the damage of Affliction on some fights in PvE, but the Malefic Grasp nerf should make it so that damage overall in PvE is reduced (where you're generally training a single target.)"

    Isn't going to happen though, I dislike malefic grasp, even as a pve player who only dabbles in pvp - but what you suggested doing is the opposite of why MG was added, it was introduced to severely throttle multidottings effectiveness - removing it to buff multidotting isn't going to happen.

  13. #33
    Its funny how theyre making the warlock nerfs stealth nerfs.

    Chaos bolt change with sacrifice...no where in patch notes

    Aura of enfeeblement no longer works with mannoroths fury and is dispellable/spellstealable....no where in patch notes.

  14. #34
    Mechagnome Kildragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schirm View Post
    No, you're not completely right. Spread damage is at an all time low; the ability to "rot" teams is completely non-existent.
    That's not true though. Watch the championship as that's the only evenly matched medium we have available right now. Entire teams would get to sub 50% but as soon as the healer had 3 seconds of free casting they'd all be topped. Rotting exists it's just not as strong. Dispels, size of heals and defensive abilities are the cause of this.

    Affliction is probably the strongest remaining multi dot spec since UA dispel hurts when glyphed. Fire mages and boomkins are worthless and the only reason SPriests are good is cause of crazy offheals and a lot of instant cast burst with procs.

    The biggest thing towards making multi dotting strong again is reducing the amount that heals heal for.

  15. #35
    Dreadlord Nykolas's Avatar
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    I miss old affliction too, MG just makes us a shitty shadow preist

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by kail View Post
    Kildragon pretty much nailed it. Healers and the mana-pool mechanics this XPac are in need of fixing.

    P.S. One thing I'd add on that list is getting our passive defenses back. Soul Link doesn't work for PvP and our Demon/Fel Armor change is crap IMO, leaving all of our defenses CD based.
    the mana issue is more to do with classes designed around burst cds and most peoples continued damage outside of cds is minimal, so every comp plays defensive till offensive cds are up, attempt to burst for kill then rinse and repeat. So outside of going for the kill healing needed is rather low.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-22 at 10:02 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Kildragon View Post
    That's not true though. Watch the championship as that's the only evenly matched medium we have available right now. Entire teams would get to sub 50% but as soon as the healer had 3 seconds of free casting they'd all be topped. Rotting exists it's just not as strong. Dispels, size of heals and defensive abilities are the cause of this.

    Affliction is probably the strongest remaining multi dot spec since UA dispel hurts when glyphed. Fire mages and boomkins are worthless and the only reason SPriests are good is cause of crazy offheals and a lot of instant cast burst with procs.

    The biggest thing towards making multi dotting strong again is reducing the amount that heals heal for.
    the team spiking as you mentioned is due multi people getting hit with chaos wave or other like effect, not continued none cd/burst pressure
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  17. #37
    Affliction got gutted in cataclysm with soul swap, further more in MoP where it has become a single target spec. There definitely needs to be a massive swing back to higher dot damage and lower filler damage. It almost can't happen though because of how malefic's grasp works. Shame, tbc and wotlk warlocks were awesome fun.

  18. #38
    Mechagnome Kildragon's Avatar
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    Not entirely true storm. Classes have always had burst CDs and while this expansion introduced a few more they have always been a part of arena play. Also, classes didn't just get their sustained nerfed, that's just a misconception caused by two other problems. Healing is everywhere now and heals are huge. This means sustained damage just doesn't matter. The second problem is CC; you spend far more time CCed now than ever before. Thanks to this, any sustained damage you have is ryjust fodder for healing meters.

    I however realize that we're agreeing on how most games are played now. It's a waiting game of trying to force shitty positioning every two minutes for burst attempts. This doesn't mean classes are designed around burst though or that sustained damage sucks now. Also keep in mind that this waiting on CDs game was a result of non burst attempts being worthless for the reasons I've mentioned before. It has nothing to do with dps being designed around burst, it's just the only playstyle that can kill shit.

    As for your point about the teams spiking low to 30%, I wasn't talking about spiking. Corruption +Doom+VT+SW:P can rot a team pretty well and they did. The problem is that healers let it happen in between burst CDs since kills weren't happening anyways.
    Last edited by Kildragon; 2012-11-23 at 06:01 AM.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Psyopz View Post
    Destruction isn't viable in arenas. Demonology is viable for now, but it is being destroyed in 5.1
    What is changing for Destruction in 5.1 that ruins the spec?
    The grass is always greener - The times were always better

  20. #40
    Ill be honest and ill admit i didnt manage to read all the posts but ill say that multi-doting for affliction is still available and imo it has been bufffed with shadowburn-soulswap,u will say that ill waste my shards for doting and not haunt but honestly i dont find hard to have 1-2 haunts in 2 different targets at the same time, affliction took his MG which is a really usefull spell for affliciton and finally ppl are already complaining about Destros burst, after the championship they saw what Demo spec is capable off, if we ask for same pvp boost for Affliction too it will be kinda OP, its like mages suddenly demand pvp boost for arcane spec.

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