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  1. #1
    Moderator Sonnillon's Avatar
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    Help our hunter do more DPS!

    His armory: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...C3%AF/advanced

    Background - he switched from his Shaman to his Hunter as we had plenty of healers, thus he has not actively played his hunter. His gear is not the best and the HoF the day before yesterday and MSV was his first raids besides LFR.

    I know that he should reforge better with exp/hit to 2550 rating> mastery > crit > haste and he should improve his reforges and enchant more of his gear. About those I will speak with him and poke him to try to improve. Though I would like to know are there any cheaper enchant than [Lord Blastington's Scope of Doom] for his weapon?

    Here are his logs:
    HoF - http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/z...tn3/details/4/
    MSV (2 logs as both tanks logged gara'jal) - http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/i...ses&boss=60143 and http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/s...0un/details/2/

    I know that he should have much, much, much better up-time on SrS and HM, but what should be the ratio of other skill like KC/Arcane/CS?
    Would love some feedback as if I plan to speak with him, I can give him few pointers (and hopefully he listens as I was our only hunter back in Cata (now a tank)).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    The curse of the Bear, the only tank whose active mitigation not only has RNG included, but only consists of RNG.


  2. #2
    The Patient The Oblivion's Avatar
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    get him better gear. really, we need gear. bad.

    make him download reforge lite to do his reforging.

    Get him the enchants he needs, not crappy cheap versions.

    Pretty sure BM is Hit=Exp >>Crit>>mast>haste too
    Last edited by The Oblivion; 2012-11-22 at 07:43 AM.

  3. #3
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    He cast 46 KCs in 585s. Considering it's a 6s CD, his max would have been 97. missing more than half your KCs will crush your DPS. Granted, on Vizier there's some downtime travelling between platforms, but on Gara'jal he had 28 in 266s (highest uptime log he has, Gara'jal is funky). Max in a 266s fight should be around 44.

    That's a whole hell of a lot of DPS he's missing right there. I like to play BM at rather high focus - SV plays at a lower focus level, imo, because of the low costs of ES, the frequency of LnLs, and the fact that you're often playing with ToTH, leading to free ASs and thus not much focus spending at all. With BM you traditionally run with DB (which he is) which is a much more even flow of focus, and KC is higher focus, and you have a higher max focus of 120 - really the only unpredictable focus incoming is from invigoration, at 20 focus, so you can play around 100 focus and be fine since you have so much going out the door every 6s.

    He got 150 ticks of AMoC (30 ticks per cast, a full 5 casts of it). In a 585s fight, he should have one ~0s, ~30s (due to Readiness), ~150s, ~270, ~390 (this is 6m30, he should using Readiness again after this), ~420, 540, so that's a full 2 casts of AMoC he's missing. Even if he readiness's at 5m to double RF, he should have (0, 30, 150, 270, Readiness off CD ~300 so AMoC latest by ~310, 430, 550, for 7 again).

    RF usage should be @ ~0, ~20ish, ~200, ~380 (then Readiness), ~400 at the latest, ~580 for the end, so 6 RFs. He has 3. RF has a reduced benefit for BM since haste blows, but auto shot IS our 2nd highest source of non-pet damage, and he did over 3.1m in auto shot, and RF will boost that for double the time he's getting currently.

    Also, he cast Focus Fire 7 times. I don't know the consensus on this, but I generally hold my 5 stacks of frenzy instead of consuming it, unless it looks like the stack is going to fall off - in a fight like Vizier I might use Focus Fire twice, on platform transitions. Having a 5 stack increases your pet's attack speed and it does a lot of damage especially at higher mastery levels - whereas Focus Fire only makes your auto shot/cobra shot faster with a 1 time focus boost to your pet, none of which really lines up with anything we're gearing for in terms of stats.

    Also, I don't know how WoL is treating Glaive Toss these days, but he's got at worst 4 casts of it, at best 8. It's a 15s CD, and on a single target he should still be using it on CD as it's a higher damage for lower focus cost than AS. Two glaives can crit for the same as a KC crit. It's well worth using. NEedless to say in a 585s fight, he should have almost 40.


    Basically, tl;dr: press more buttons.
    Last edited by eschatological; 2012-11-22 at 07:41 AM.

  4. #4
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    Why did you even make this thread. He has the mogu rune of paralysis, strength ring, and isn't even in full heroics. lol.

  5. #5
    Moderator Sonnillon's Avatar
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    x_X you know Dragon, usage of proper skills > gear. As if you get your rotations, CD right you can do more, much more, no matter the gear ilvl. I didn't notice the ring though.

    The AH is very expensive our faction side as there are not that many players and getting the most expensive enchants for gear which you will probably end up switching soon seems kind of meh. 463+ should be enchanted with the best possible enchants, but anything else, I believe the lowest would do of MoP enchants.

    -----------------------------------------------

    Is the time which frenzy lasts trackablr as a buff on you or not?
    So he should keep KC, AMoC and Glaive Toss on CD, prioritizing KC over the other 2 skills and making sure that he has enough focus for KC?
    Mari officer/RL/OT of Punished <- RECRUITING for WoD
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    The curse of the Bear, the only tank whose active mitigation not only has RNG included, but only consists of RNG.


  6. #6
    Let's see...

    - Your stat priority for reforging is wrong. Hit/Exp 2550 > Crit > Mastery > Haste.
    - You definitely want a Lord Blastington's Scope of Doom, nothing else compares. However the next choice would be Mirror Scope.
    - He should learn to play both BM and SV as there are encounters on which one is better than the other. There was a thread here that I'm sure you can find by doing a quick search that did a pretty good job on explaining which spec was best for which fight. This is not to say that one spec is not good for all fights, I am just saying each spec has fights on which it does better than the other.
    - He needs to get rid of Skinning and pick up any other crafting profession.
    - He has some missing or incorrect enchantments. I'll list the correct ones here:

    Shoulders: 200 agi // 100 crit. I believe its called Greater Inscription of the Tiger
    Back: 180 Crit Rating
    Chest: 80 Stats
    Bracers: 180 Agi
    Gloves: 170 Expertise
    Belt: Don't forget the Belt Buckle
    Legs: 285 Agi // 165 Crit Rating
    Boots: 140 Agi // Run Speed
    Weapon: Lord Blastington's Scope of Doom

    As far as the Spec goes:

    Tier 1: Posthaste by default. Crouching Tiger, Hidden Chimera on fights requiring constant CD usage.
    Tier 2: Silencing Shot. Binding Shot is useable in some places.
    Tier 3: Aspect of the Iron Hawk.
    Tier 4: BM: Dire Beast, SV: Fervor or Thrill of the Hunt. For me it depends on fight. Make the choice you feel is right for you.
    Tier 5: BM: Murder of Crows. SV: Lynx Rush.
    Tier 6: Glaive Toss.

    Glyphs: Overall best setup: Animal Bond, Marked for Death, Deterrence.

    Pets: I don't know if you guys are a 10m or 25m. But he should grab 5 pets each providing buffs that may be used when needed.

    My next suggestion would be that he needs to read and understand the opening rotations, regular priorities, and cooldown management. These are provided in detail in the guilds already available on this forum.

    In the end it comes to to the same thing as any other DPS class. Keep your GCD's rolling, maintain correct priority, positioning, use CDs to your advantage, etc etc. The biggest thing that will make him better will be learning to DPS on the run as a hunter. Its relatively easy once you get used to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sonnillon View Post
    x_X you know Dragon, usage of proper skills > gear. As if you get your rotations, CD right you can do more, much more, no matter the gear ilvl. I didn't notice the ring though.

    The AH is very expensive our faction side as there are not that many players and getting the most expensive enchants for gear which you will probably end up switching soon seems kind of meh. 463+ should be enchanted with the best possible enchants, but anything else, I believe the lowest would do of MoP enchants.

    -----------------------------------------------

    Is the time which frenzy lasts trackablr as a buff on you or not?
    So he should keep KC, AMoC and Glaive Toss on CD, prioritizing KC over the other 2 skills and making sure that he has enough focus for KC?
    Honestly, this is the research that he should be doing. He will understand a lot better if he does it himself. It doesn't take that long to read a guide, understand it, and put what you learned from reading it to use. If he is serious about raiding, these are things that should have been taken care of by him before he even stepped into a raid.
    Last edited by Bombs; 2012-11-22 at 08:01 AM.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by The Oblivion View Post
    get him better gear. really, we need gear. bad.

    make him download reforge lite to do his reforging.

    Get him the enchants he needs, not crappy cheap versions.

    Pretty sure BM is Hit=Exp >>Crit>>mast>haste too
    If you want him to optimize his reforges, he should use wowreforge.com not reforgelite. wowreforge will give him better reforges.

    Get rid of his strength ring and trinket (mogu rune). His ranged weapon also isn't the best ranged dungeon weapon he can get.

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  8. #8
    As escha mentioned above, I would learn the correct rota.
    High KC usage is most important!
    Tell him to try and use KC EVERY FUCKIN 6sec!
    That means managing your focus to have the 40focus ready when KC is ready.
    This means: cast 2 Cobras + 1 instant cast in between two KCs in the normal case.
    3 Cobras if low on focus. 1 Cobra + 3 instants if high on focus.
    If hasted by Rapidfire, Focusfire or Heroism: 2 Cobras + 2 instants. (Or 5 instants ^^)
    Correct KC usage is really the base to start off with

  9. #9
    Moderator Sonnillon's Avatar
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    I will point those things out for him, what TheTrue said seems to be the most simplest way to explain things for him on the basic rotation. And I will have him read the BM guide here and maybe on Noxxic as that place tends to explain very simply. As I don't know how much he played his hunter in Cata nor how well he knows how to play his class.

    Thank you for the advice so far.

    Well. We are a 10-man group. But our DPS (minus the lock and rogue) don't seem to know/want to do research of their own (ofc people who have to play their OS I will consider a slight exception, but usually healers/tanks know how to play their DPS OS). I improved our boomkin (though seems like it was a waste), I improved the other lock of ours in the last expac. So in order for people to do things properly (not saying that everyone in my raid group (including me) gets their shit 100% right) most of the them need a poke to a right direction, 90% of time it helps usually.

    I'd rather do a research for them, if they learn good for them and the raid. If they don't they won't be along as long as we don't need them (our special snowflake warrior got a demotion to social due to the reason of not listening and getting his nice purple epic shit enchanted for 3 weeks in row, and is now taken along when we need him), but mainly we do take people along with bad gear, as recruitment is a bitch
    Mari officer/RL/OT of Punished <- RECRUITING for WoD
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    The curse of the Bear, the only tank whose active mitigation not only has RNG included, but only consists of RNG.


  10. #10
    Needs gear (even the dragonling from an engineer will be better than that JP trinket) is obvious. Get the scope for the weapon.

    Learn the opener. Pot, all CDs, READINESS! CDs again! Another pot later when CDs are up again. His flat damage through the fight is lowish for the gear, but the lack of spike damage kills his DPS.

    Seriously, Readiness is for all hunters now and is awesome. He didn't use it once. Dig it out of his spellbook and get it used.

    Get him to try SV as well because frankly BM isn't for everyone. Doesn't matter what sims highest under some bullshit theoretical conditions that never happen. Individual player preference plays a big part.

  11. #11
    Field Marshal Gaelthar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonnillon View Post

    Well. We are a 10-man group. But our DPS (minus the lock and rogue) don't seem to know/want to do research of their own (ofc people who have to play their OS I will consider a slight exception,
    I would remove them from the guild. Not willing to learn to play their spec means they have totally 0 responsibility... It means you are asking what he has to do himself...

  12. #12
    He is also using arcane shot more than he's supposed to. Probably because he isn't using kill command as much as he's supposed to.

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  13. #13
    Field Marshal Gaelthar's Avatar
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    http://www.noxxic.com/wow/pve/hunter/beast-mastery i know its not a professional guide but it has all the basic info and requirements + rotations.

  14. #14
    Its good that you, as a raid leader (at least i think you are RL), know basics about multiple classes, but explaining something that was explained to you by someone else, without any knowledge how it looks like in practice, won't work in the end. Just make him read some guides(noxxic, elitist, here there is plenty of them - and easy to find) and force him to practice, thats the best possible way to improve. And thats the thing with anyone else you want to improve, if they don't want to improve themselves, your efforts will be wasted and they are simply not worth your time.

    Besides.. he was playing shaman - why didnt he switch for ele/enh when he has no idea about playing end game hunter and it seems like like he doesn't even want to play it seriously?

  15. #15
    Bloodsail Admiral soulcrusher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    He cast 46 KCs in 585s. Considering it's a 6s CD, his max would have been 97. missing more than half your KCs will crush your DPS. Granted, on Vizier there's some downtime travelling between platforms, but on Gara'jal he had 28 in 266s (highest uptime log he has, Gara'jal is funky). Max in a 266s fight should be around 44.

    That's a whole hell of a lot of DPS he's missing right there. I like to play BM at rather high focus - SV plays at a lower focus level, imo, because of the low costs of ES, the frequency of LnLs, and the fact that you're often playing with ToTH, leading to free ASs and thus not much focus spending at all. With BM you traditionally run with DB (which he is) which is a much more even flow of focus, and KC is higher focus, and you have a higher max focus of 120 - really the only unpredictable focus incoming is from invigoration, at 20 focus, so you can play around 100 focus and be fine since you have so much going out the door every 6s.

    He got 150 ticks of AMoC (30 ticks per cast, a full 5 casts of it). In a 585s fight, he should have one ~0s, ~30s (due to Readiness), ~150s, ~270, ~390 (this is 6m30, he should using Readiness again after this), ~420, 540, so that's a full 2 casts of AMoC he's missing. Even if he readiness's at 5m to double RF, he should have (0, 30, 150, 270, Readiness off CD ~300 so AMoC latest by ~310, 430, 550, for 7 again).

    RF usage should be @ ~0, ~20ish, ~200, ~380 (then Readiness), ~400 at the latest, ~580 for the end, so 6 RFs. He has 3. RF has a reduced benefit for BM since haste blows, but auto shot IS our 2nd highest source of non-pet damage, and he did over 3.1m in auto shot, and RF will boost that for double the time he's getting currently.

    Also, he cast Focus Fire 7 times. I don't know the consensus on this, but I generally hold my 5 stacks of frenzy instead of consuming it, unless it looks like the stack is going to fall off - in a fight like Vizier I might use Focus Fire twice, on platform transitions. Having a 5 stack increases your pet's attack speed and it does a lot of damage especially at higher mastery levels - whereas Focus Fire only makes your auto shot/cobra shot faster with a 1 time focus boost to your pet, none of which really lines up with anything we're gearing for in terms of stats.

    Also, I don't know how WoL is treating Glaive Toss these days, but he's got at worst 4 casts of it, at best 8. It's a 15s CD, and on a single target he should still be using it on CD as it's a higher damage for lower focus cost than AS. Two glaives can crit for the same as a KC crit. It's well worth using. NEedless to say in a 585s fight, he should have almost 40.


    Basically, tl;dr: press more buttons.
    good post, one of the most inormative posts Ive seen on here for a while.

  16. #16
    Moderator Sonnillon's Avatar
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    Yarp, am officer/RL of the guild.

    I know bit about hunters myself. As I was our guilds only raiding hunter through out all the Cataclysm tiers. I learned my class w/o any previous experience and thus did pretty well in the end. Right now I don't have a level 90 hunter, but dungeons (lower level ones) I run on her as SV, cause I feel that BM lack lot of oomph for me. So I know how the class should work and I know that he should do better, I need to freshen up on some of the aspects of huntardism as well when I get to 90.

    He tried shaman DPS, can't remember which spec it was, but he said that DPSing as a Shaman was not for him.

    But seeing as I told him to find a Hyena as we were missing Attack Speed buff, he went and did so, also he upped his expertise from 3% to 6.smthg% after I made a note to him.. So I guess maybe it is all about pointing him at the right direction, he is asking questions and listening what is told, which is a good value of a raider. People seem not to try to read up on things, when you don't point their nose into into it or read the wrong guides and stuff. People seem not to read forums at all

    As for kicking people, we can't be that picky on who we take as we don't have enough people most of the time. Only person who will be kicked when he fucks up again on a larger scale will be our warrior as he already got demoted.

    In general I will ask him to check out SV, since I play that spec on my lowbie hunter, I can give better pointers and have a general chat with him. Thank you for the time you put into the replies.
    Last edited by Sonnillon; 2012-11-22 at 12:19 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    The curse of the Bear, the only tank whose active mitigation not only has RNG included, but only consists of RNG.


  17. #17
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    You can track frenzy uptime in WoL, but not sure you can track the stacks. It stacks relatively quickly though, by your 3rd BW (1m10s into the fight) it should be at a full 5 stack. It's a buff on your pet, not on you.

    This is probably a little advanced for your hunter, but if he IS going to consume Frenzy procs to put up Focus Fire, the absolute best time to do this is right AFTER BW and the worst time is right before. If he consumes it right after to regen the focus he lost from spamming AS/KC during BW, he'll haste those CSs and probably have a 4-5 stack of Frenzy up for the next BW barring bad RNG.

    Edit: He actually had an 82% uptime of Frenzy, about 100s of non-Frenzy. Considering this encounter and the fact that the frenzy is being counted from 1 stack, it should be a bit higher but not perfect. He'd probably lose it on platform transitions unless he got a refresh right before the movement. It shouldn't take more than 20s at the beginning to get your first stack. Of course, the refresh is just constant RNG.
    Last edited by eschatological; 2012-11-22 at 11:36 PM.

  18. #18
    Don't know about you guys, but when I use the absolute focus drainer aMoC I like using Focus Fire. Makes it a LOT less painful to use.

  19. #19
    Blademaster
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bombs View Post
    Let's see...

    - Your stat priority for reforging is wrong. Hit/Exp 2550 > Crit > Mastery > Haste.
    - You definitely want a Lord Blastington's Scope of Doom, nothing else compares. However the next choice would be Mirror Scope.
    - He should learn to play both BM and SV as there are encounters on which one is better than the other. There was a thread here that I'm sure you can find by doing a quick search that did a pretty good job on explaining which spec was best for which fight. This is not to say that one spec is not good for all fights, I am just saying each spec has fights on which it does better than the other.
    - He needs to get rid of Skinning and pick up any other crafting profession.
    - He has some missing or incorrect enchantments. I'll list the correct ones here:

    Shoulders: 200 agi // 100 crit. I believe its called Greater Inscription of the Tiger
    Back: 180 Crit Rating
    Chest: 80 Stats
    Bracers: 180 Agi
    Gloves: 170 Expertise
    Belt: Don't forget the Belt Buckle
    Legs: 285 Agi // 165 Crit Rating
    Boots: 140 Agi // Run Speed
    Weapon: Lord Blastington's Scope of Doom

    As far as the Spec goes:

    Tier 1: Posthaste by default. Crouching Tiger, Hidden Chimera on fights requiring constant CD usage.
    Tier 2: Silencing Shot. Binding Shot is useable in some places.
    Tier 3: Aspect of the Iron Hawk.
    Tier 4: BM: Dire Beast, SV: Fervor or Thrill of the Hunt. For me it depends on fight. Make the choice you feel is right for you.
    Tier 5: BM: Murder of Crows. SV: Lynx Rush.
    Tier 6: Glaive Toss.

    Glyphs: Overall best setup: Animal Bond, Marked for Death, Deterrence.

    Pets: I don't know if you guys are a 10m or 25m. But he should grab 5 pets each providing buffs that may be used when needed.
    Sorry Bro but I need to stop you right there first of all the stats for reforging as a hunter is Hit/Exp 2550(7.5%)->Crit->Haste->Mastery.
    The rest of what you said is true, until' you said that MoC is better for Bm then Lynx Rush, that is complete Bull, Lynx rush wins by far over MoC, Lynx rush gives you that DPS boost that you want in your burst, which hunters only are as it is, they're only cooldown. MoC Is better for survival.
    And last of all, Pet's as of the change with pet's at the pre-MoP patch hunter's can change what "spec" their pet should be, and because of that, it dosen't matter what pet you use, as long as it can benefit your guild, pet's are basicly only a buff machine ( and damage output ) for buffs that the raid cannot get, but as a 25 man guild they should already have all buffs = this hunter can choose what pet he whishes to use.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Kadmio View Post
    Sorry Bro but I need to stop you right there first of all the stats for reforging as a hunter is Hit/Exp 2550(7.5%)->Crit->Haste->Mastery.
    The rest of what you said is true, until' you said that MoC is better for Bm then Lynx Rush, that is complete Bull, Lynx rush wins by far over MoC, Lynx rush gives you that DPS boost that you want in your burst, which hunters only are as it is, they're only cooldown. MoC Is better for survival.
    And last of all, Pet's as of the change with pet's at the pre-MoP patch hunter's can change what "spec" their pet should be, and because of that, it dosen't matter what pet you use, as long as it can benefit your guild, pet's are basicly only a buff machine ( and damage output ) for buffs that the raid cannot get, but as a 25 man guild they should already have all buffs = this hunter can choose what pet he whishes to use.
    AMoC is better than LR for both bm and SV.

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