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  1. #1

    RNG Itemization for Raiders

    from: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/5966978042

    Hey guys,

    I know there is a big discussion going on about the need to do dailies in order to itemize for raiding etc. - that's not one of my concerns, mostly because I loved the dailies and already finished them for my main character. I am exalted with every MoP faction that's currently available. I raid every week and despite having a few setbacks in our raidgroup, we're quite solid with going Heroic Mogu now and Heart of Fear currently at Meljarak.

    We got a quite balanced Setup and downed Elegon the first time 5 weeks ago. Both me as a Fury Warrior and our Frost DK hoped for a weapon from him. We both used bonus roll Tokens on Elegon that same Night - and every other kill afterwards (a total of 5 Kills now on Normal Mode) - we also down Elegon LFR every week for a chance at a weapon upgrade - and we also used a golden coin there, too.

    Now that makes 10 normal mode chances at a weapon upgrade from charms and 12 LFR mode chances for us two. We got a single Weapon (2H from LFR the first Time I went there).

    Now I know the concept of RNG and sometimes you just don't get the luck you need - BUT there is no other way for us to improve on those slots.

    Casters can at least get 476 Upgrades from Inscription. Rogues, Meele Shamans, DualWield Monks do have the chance at a dagger from Stone Guard and/or a Fist weapon from Gara'Jal, which means double the chance at a weapon that's better than Heroic Dungeon Gear. Feral Druids and 2H Monks can also get a Inscription 476 staff.

    Now since the 476 2H Sword from Elegon in my first LFR kill, I haven't gotten a single weapon upgrade in 6 Weeks. My other Items are pretty much maxed out for normal mode and I keep falling back behind in our group in terms of damage - same goes for our Frost DK. Basically RNG is holding our group back from progressing faster, because we're having a hard time with enrage timers on Garalon or Meljarak right now - it's close, but it's a factor.

    Why is there no other option for Strength based Meele DPS to get a weapon upgrade rather than one single boss (I do NOT count the 0.3% chance for the 2h from Weaponmaster in Mogu Palace HC)? I'm a blacksmith and I would certainly be willing to pay tons of gold for the possibility to craft a 476 weapon at least - why not make it accountwide as the Inscription Staves?

    Now I know Blizz won't change things now - but maybe they'll improve their itemization for future Raids, so people get a chance to actually not be hindered by a clearly flawed system. RNG is part of the game and is clearly valuable to some point - but when RNG is too huge a factor it certainly kills some of the fun. Strength based WeaponDPS for Warriors and Frost DKs is hugely affecting overall DPS output - it's probably the most important slot you have.

    Having ALL possible improvements drop solely from a single boss is simply bad design and will hopefully lead to some change where you get different ways to improve on this slot if RNG hates you.
    What else do people here see, that could be improved upon?

  2. #2
    Sha of Fear says hello to you :P This thread would be more viable before Terrace was released.

    2h axe of legendary gem!

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Whitetroll View Post
    Sha of Fear says hello to you :P This thread would be more viable before Terrace was released.

    2h axe of legendary gem!
    We're not yet in Terrace Normal yet, because we still need to clear HoF before. I used another Token (currently using 2xElegon + 1xSha of Fear per Week) on the Sha of Fear but didn't get the Axe - I neither got the 1hand Sword from Amber Shaper LFR the week before. Basically I'm stuck doing shitty DPS because of the weapons I'm forced to use for weeks.

    Edit: And I didn't even add, that Strength DPS has to kill the last Boss of this raid tier while for example Agi Meele Legendary Fist Weapons drop from HoFs last Boss.

  4. #4
    Pandaren Monk Moosie's Avatar
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    I read the post but didn't see what class the quote was talking about. I'm guessing a warrior or DK due to the last few paragraphs. The point is moot. You say everyone can get 476 weapons except Str dps, which is wrong. The only class really effected by this is ret paladin, since warrior and DK can use the 476 1H axe from Stormstout brewery. Granted they are extremely rare, but it's a chance never-the-less, and remember, it took classes that needed a staff atleast 20 days to get the staff, that's if you didn't want to get a DMF trinket, which most people did.

    Yes the lack of a 2H sword might be a problem, the lack of int staffs is also a concern in raids (there only been 1). Itemization will always be a problem for some.
    Moosie <After Hours> : Feral / Restoration

  5. #5
    "Basically RNG is holding our group back from progressing faster, because we're having a hard time with enrage timers on Garalon or Meljarak"

    Complete bull, you'll get a bigger improvement out of simply learning to play better.

    I think people just place too much emphasis on gear, missing ONE item slot (and even that is LFR level) isn't going to stop anyone progressing. As someone who spent between T11 and T13 wearing a dungeon helm (which was eventually replaced with a T11 helm during T13), Even this tier I've had a grand total of TWO normal mode drops. I have zero sympathy for people complaining about not being clad in full gear, normal mode or otherwise, after a mere 6 weeks and claiming to be held back on progression due to them is complete bull.

    RNG loot has always been a part of MMOs, it's as symbolic of the genre as anything else, sometimes you get snake-eyes, deal with it and move on, don't go blaming your lack of progression on a few item levels of gear.

    There are cases of bad design - not having a single heroic ilevel none-spirit caster neck in T13 was bad design, not being able to potentially fully clad your character in a set level of gear I can agree with being poor drop design, but having only 1-2 bosses that drop a certain slot piece is perfectly fine and has cropped up multiple times for years, I struggle to consider that a problem.
    Last edited by Nagassh; 2012-11-26 at 01:25 PM.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by razorback07 View Post
    I read the post but didn't see what class the quote was talking about. I'm guessing a warrior or DK due to the last few paragraphs. The point is moot. You say everyone can get 476 weapons except Str dps, which is wrong. The only class really effected by this is ret paladin, since warrior and DK can use the 476 1H axe from Stormstout brewery. Granted they are extremely rare, but it's a chance never-the-less, and remember, it took classes that needed a staff atleast 20 days to get the staff, that's if you didn't want to get a DMF trinket, which most people did.

    Yes the lack of a 2H sword might be a problem, the lack of int staffs is also a concern in raids (there only been 1). Itemization will always be a problem for some.
    Yeah, it's about my warrior. With a drop chance of under 1% for the Heroic Epics (1Hand from Brewery and 2Hand from MoguPalace - I try to run them every other day). I would've gladly taken 30days for building myself a 476 Weapon with blacksmithing. I'm also not talking solely on behalf of the 2H weapon - it's the same for 1H, as there is only one single chance to get one (not important which one) Str DPS Weapon per Week from Normal Raids if you're not a crazy progressing Guild that's got Normal cleared already. The Problem is that you don't have an alternative really. You can always go wand+offhand or dagger+offhand for your caster gear AND you get the option to get the 476 staff from Inscription if you really don't get the RNG luck. Valor is one thing for fixing some of the bad RNG you might get - but it doesn't help with weapons and both Str Weapons who could improve my Warrior only drop from a single boss.

  7. #7
    Pandaren Monk Moosie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarento View Post
    Yeah, it's about my warrior. With a drop chance of under 1% for the Heroic Epics (1Hand from Brewery and 2Hand from MoguPalace - I try to run them every other day). I would've gladly taken 30days for building myself a 476 Weapon with blacksmithing. I'm also not talking solely on behalf of the 2H weapon - it's the same for 1H, as there is only one single chance to get one (not important which one) Str DPS Weapon per Week from Normal Raids if you're not a crazy progressing Guild that's got Normal cleared already. The Problem is that you don't have an alternative really. You can always go wand+offhand or dagger+offhand for your caster gear AND you get the option to get the 476 staff from Inscription if you really don't get the RNG luck. Valor is one thing for fixing some of the bad RNG you might get - but it doesn't help with weapons and both Str Weapons who could improve my Warrior only drop from a single boss.
    Why not do PvP then? I've seen a fair few warriors running around with the 490 pvp swords in pve raids? I have to go with Nagassh here and say that I highly doubt you still having a 463 weapon is really holding raids back.
    Moosie <After Hours> : Feral / Restoration

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Nagassh View Post
    "Basically RNG is holding our group back from progressing faster, because we're having a hard time with enrage timers on Garalon or Meljarak"

    Complete bull, you'll get a bigger improvement out of simply learning to play better.

    I think people just place too much emphasis on gear, missing ONE item slot (and even that is LFR level) isn't going to stop anyone progressing. As someone who spent between T11 and T13 wearing a dungeon helm (which was eventually replaced with a T11 helm during T13), Even this tier I've had a grand total of TWO normal mode drops. I have zero sympathy for people complaining about not being clad in full gear, normal mode or otherwise, after a mere 6 weeks and claiming to be held back on progression due to them is complete bull.

    RNG loot has always been a part of MMOs, it's as symbolic of the genre as anything else, sometimes you get snake-eyes, deal with it and move on, don't go blaming your lack of progression on a few item levels of gear.

    There are cases of bad design - not having a single heroic ilevel none-spirit caster neck in T13 was bad design, not being able to potentially fully clad your character in a set level of gear I can agree with being poor drop design, but having only 1-2 bosses that drop a certain slot piece is perfectly fine and has cropped up multiple times for years, I struggle to consider that a problem.
    I see that for Items that don't have the correct 'stats' or BiS values for your class. See FL Agi Cloak being BiS for whole of Dragonsoul.

    But it's bad design to make a certain class/spec more prone to RNG than other classes - in a slot that you can't improve with Valor, Crafting or by any other means. It's simply impossible. Also telling me the most important slot for a meele DPS is 'not that important' and just a luxury issue or issue of player skill - I don't know 'bout that. We got a few players who were ranked in the top100 for certain Fights during the first two weeks of Mogu - our Enhancer Shaman keeps getting Top100 rankings for most fights - but he's also got 489+476 Weapons. I for one was ranked top100 for Warriors during our first week of Mogu (we cleared only 4 Bosses) - but constant lack of a weapon slot Improvement I kinda ran into a wall - I still manage between 125-140k DPS on Elegon for example.

    This point of hitting a wall in personal progression is also slowing progress for my guild, because we're in dire need of just a few more DPS - we're a close group of friends, so we won't change a person just because of RNG - but having a FrostDK and a Warrior as main DPS sources without good weapons is setting us back.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-26 at 02:39 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by razorback07 View Post
    Why not do PvP then? I've seen a fair few warriors running around with the 490 pvp swords in pve raids? I have to go with Nagassh here and say that I highly doubt you still having a 463 weapon is really holding raids back.
    I got the 470 PVP Sword and it's not an upgrade over 463 Dungeon (I tried it) - 490 PVP Swords need a certain rating I simply don't have and can't attain at the moment.

  9. #9
    There is a huge difference between a piece of armor and a weapon in terms of gains for upgrades , even more so for physical based classes.

  10. #10
    Every tier someone has a harder time getting a weapon and every tier someone bitches about it. (ie ICC and Marrowgar)
    Plus, a single 2hnd weapon upgrade will be a much bigger dps boost then a single 1hnd weapon upgrade. And comparing fist/daggers equally is like me comparing 1hnd str and 2hnd str weapons together.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    Every tier someone has a harder time getting a weapon and every tier someone bitches about it. (ie ICC and Marrowgar)
    Plus, a single 2hnd weapon upgrade will be a much bigger dps boost then a single 1hnd weapon upgrade. And comparing fist/daggers equally is like me comparing 1hnd str and 2hnd str weapons together.
    I don't care if I get an upgrade for one of my two(!!) FURY weapons. I don't care if it's a 2Hand or a 1Hand. My Problem is: Both viable options are from the SAME Boss and since RNG hits us bad, we have no chance to improve further.

    If the above is TL;DR for you: Others have options to choose from - we Strength DPS don't have options right now.

  12. #12

  13. #13
    RNG loot has always been a part of MMOs, it's as symbolic of the genre as anything else, sometimes you get snake-eyes, deal with it and move on, don't go blaming your lack of progression on a few item levels of gear.
    It my be symbolic for the genre but that doesn't mean it is a good design or gearing method, it is old fashioned designed to prolong content and doesn't fit into today's faster release schedule of content very well.

    PvPers have always been able to select the slots they want to replace by spending currancy they earn over time, why must we stick to the old formula of RNG? I know some people like the "excitement of seeing what you got" thing, but still this isn't a christmas present we are unwrapping its a freakin farm boss and RNG is annoying as hell especially when some slot items such as weapons have a lower drop chance than others yet can be crucial to getting bigger numbers out.

  14. #14
    I don't have a Problem with RNG - but I think it's time to limit its impact by giving players a possibility to counter RNG if enough time passes. 6 Weeks without a weapon upgrade is a lot - I have the 2handed Sword I use in my offhand from Scholomance HC since the first week of MoP.

  15. #15
    Field Marshal Insincere's Avatar
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    I know RNG can be a cruel mistress, trust me, we've all been there. But a weapon upgrade will not give you 'tons' more dps, yes it will be an upgrade but you're looking at a smaller increase than i think you realise.

    If you want to counter enrage timers, try checking your tanks/healers dmg, i guarantee you there will be more dps potential there than you realise. Much more than your single weapon upgrade will give you.

  16. #16
    Your analogy about Enhancement shaman is wrong, though. Daggers is not a viable option for that spec, rendering them with 1 weapon drop total from Mogu'shan Vaults as well.

    Besides, as others have mentioned, Mogu'shan Vaults is to be considered 1/3 of this tier, which means that loot is designed with the entire tier in mind, so you have to include Terrace and Heart of Fear in your calculations. And I am pretty darned sure that once you go and do that, everything evens out perfectly fine compared to how many classes that has to roll for each weapon type.

    And yes, a new weapon on a couple dps is not going to change the fact between a kill and not, normal modes is 95% about doing the tactics right.
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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Draenox View Post
    Your analogy about Enhancement shaman is wrong, though. Daggers is not a viable option for that spec, rendering them with 1 weapon drop total from Mogu'shan Vaults as well.

    Besides, as others have mentioned, Mogu'shan Vaults is to be considered 1/3 of this tier, which means that loot is designed with the entire tier in mind, so you have to include Terrace and Heart of Fear in your calculations. And I am pretty darned sure that once you go and do that, everything evens out perfectly fine compared to how many classes that has to roll for each weapon type.

    And yes, a new weapon on a couple dps is not going to change the fact between a kill and not, normal modes is 95% about doing the tactics right.
    ONE new Weapon doesn't - but we're missing weapons above 463 on both our two meeles. Frost DK & Warrior. :-/

  18. #18
    Blademaster Autier's Avatar
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    Killed Elegon 10+ times (normal/LFR) and haven't seen a 2h. That's me and our blood DK using coins every week on normal and in LFR. Our normal TOES clear yielded the same results.

    One day I'll replace that 463 weapon.


    Edit: We've disenchanted Bows, fist weapons, daggers, etc. Still no 2h Sword or Axe. This expansion is the first time I've raided 10-man strictly, and the loot rng is balls.
    Last edited by Autier; 2012-11-26 at 08:19 PM.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Autier View Post
    Killed Elegon 10+ times (normal/LFR) and haven't seen a 2h. That's me and our blood DK using coins every week on normal and in LFR. Our normal TOES clear yielded the same results.

    One day I'll replace that 463 weapon.


    Edit: We've disenchanted Bows, fist weapons, daggers, etc. Still no 2h Sword or Axe. This expansion is the first time I've raided 10-man strictly, and the loot rng is balls.
    I feel with you - same here. Although I'm glad I can upgrade my 463 now with Justice to 471 - might at least be a bit.

  20. #20
    Dreadlord
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    I stopped reading that enha shaman could take the dagger.. Yes I agree with OP. I haven't seen my fist from Garajal after 7 lfr, 6 10man and 1 25man kill, coin use on all. It sucks. I still run around with 2x463 weaps after so long and so many chances.

    But please, if you'r going to include other classes/specs, please know what they will use or not.
    Shaman since Vanilla. All the way !

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