1. #1

    Garajal Heroic Help (10m)

    Hello everyone,

    My guild has just cleared all 16 normals and stone guard & feng heroic and has started working on Gara'jal heroic. Our dps is pretty decent but still will not be enough for 3 healing this, I believe. We get 6-7 pulls before the night was off, I would like to pick your brains and experience how to approach this.

    Our setup is:
    2 x DK Tanks (yup I know the worst possible tanks for dolls, we have no backup options but they are decently geared)

    1 x Holy Paladin, 1 x Resto Shaman

    Demo Lock, Shadow Priest, Hunter, Mage, Rogue, Feral Druid (Resto OS)

    Our problem was random deaths to Voodoos, tank/ healing CD management problems, I guess and getting overrun by adds due to not be able to send the grps in to the shadow realm quick enough..

    My questions about how you approached this fight:

    1 - Do you use hybrid dps like shadow priest / feral druid to heal after the first totem and whenever both healers are unavailable due to doll and frail soul?
    2 - How do you stack the spiritual inner buff, which healer to send in first unless dolled?
    3 - Do you use BL at start with healers dpsing until BL is off or do you use it for the last 20%?
    4 - Is there a point you start ignoring the totems to burn the boss or do you send ppl until the boss stops spawning totems at 20%?
    5 - What would be the average dps needed per dps player to meet the enrage timer?

    I would appreciate the help guys. Our gear level should be just enough to encounter this and elegon on heroic but I think this would be more of a challenge with the rng involved..

    Thanks for your time for sharing your opinions in advance,
    Fred
    Last edited by freddykr; 2012-11-22 at 08:13 AM.

  2. #2
    Let the shadow spec disc for this fight and smite the whole fight while only using important healing cds to support the tankheal/voodooodolls. That way you don't have to worry about offhealing in the spiritrealm, it also will result in a higher overall dps probably because of the full stack at all times and DPS don't have to waste offhealing spells in order to get the spirits down.
    We use bloodlust at about 25-30% when the players come out of the totem and burn the boss from there on. Need less than 5minutes for that fight

  3. #3
    The best advice would be try to 3 heal it with the disc priest and see if the boss dies before 6:00. If it's close, you can try to trim it by asking your dps to leave sooner, enter, get the buff and get out asap when at 27%, etc. If not, skip it. I say this because it's a boss that you will kill within 2 tries with a couple of saves worth of gear, while for elegon and kings your raid will need trys to learn them regardless of gear.

  4. #4
    Thanks for the advice guys.

    Btw, the priest has no disc spec or healing experience at all. But I can ask the feral druid to go resto as his MS is resto anyways. 3 heals will solve the totem issue but can we make the timer with 3 heals is the question. We need all the spiritual innervation in the world I guess. Any tips for the mitigation of voodoo dmg when DKs are out of CDs?

  5. #5
    Your hpala can hand of sacriface on your tanks and BoP them, they will still have aggro even if bop'ed

  6. #6
    With all the gear from HoF/ToES would be it be more easier to 2 or 3 heal it? Or is 2.5 Healing it still your best bet?

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by freddykr View Post
    My questions about how you approached this fight:

    1 - Do you use hybrid dps like shadow priest / feral druid to heal after the first totem and whenever both healers are unavailable due to doll and frail soul?
    Yes, the person calling out the totems needs to be aware that you want to save dps with hybrid healing to be available for the totem without a healer. Obviously this has to be dynamic because of voodoo dolls (note that Voodoo Dolls will always prefer targets who have just been in the spirit realm!). So as an example;
    - Lock, Pally, DK get voodoo dolls.
    - Call for Shaman, rogue, mage to go into totem.
    - DK gets banished, call for Pally, Lock, Hunter to go into totem.
    - Other DK, Shaman, Mage get voodoo dolls.
    - Call for Feral, Spriest, Rogue to go into totem **Hybrid Healing** (priest and druid can use tranq or just cast heals, will need to be sure to help top rogue as he has very little self healing). NB: Healthstones are quite helpful for people in the non-healer totem.
    Rinse and repeat depending who gets voodoo dolls.
    Obviously an alternative is to 3 heal with an atonement healer, which has the detriment of; a) making the enrage tighter and b) potentially decreasing potential dps available for totems and therefore increasing adds alive.

    Edit: I just realized I included mumble in our kill vid for Garajal, so if you can put up with the Australian accents you can hear who I called to go into totem! --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VExMl_saKSo

    Quote Originally Posted by freddykr View Post
    2 - How do you stack the spiritual inner buff, which healer to send in first unless dolled?
    Almost always one of your healers will get dolls first. I don't think I've ever seen two dps get the first dolls. Just send in the one that doesn't have it. Both of them should be able to stack the buff over 20% quite easily. Just alternate between instant, fast and bomb heals.

    Quote Originally Posted by freddykr View Post
    3 - Do you use BL at start with healers dpsing until BL is off or do you use it for the last 20%?
    Bloodlust is almost always better at the beginning. It lines up with trinkets and cooldowns in a way that is extremely difficult to do sub-20%, additionally its easier for your healers to dps at the start, you wont get much dps out of them after 20%.

    The hidden benefit of lusting at the start is that you get to 20% quicker. Getting there faster means less adds are alive than there would have been. Not only once you hit 20% but all the time before it (when someone will have to solo heal outside).

    Quote Originally Posted by freddykr View Post
    4 - Is there a point you start ignoring the totems to burn the boss or do you send ppl until the boss stops spawning totems at 20%?
    On our first kill we never ignored a totem. Killing even 3 or 4 adds is invaluable to the survivability of your raid considering the aoe damage ramps up considerably.

    Quote Originally Posted by freddykr View Post
    5 - What would be the average dps needed per dps player to meet the enrage timer?
    Its really hard to answer this because logs and meters don't accurately measure anyones dps but your own. Plus some classes will be better at killing adds and others will do better dps to boss with the innervation buff. If you think you have the dps to kill Elegon then you probably have the dps to kill Garajal. Just need a really clean execution with everyone doing their best to maximize add and boss dps.
    Last edited by PalawinFC; 2012-11-22 at 10:39 PM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by freddykr View Post
    Thanks for the advice guys.

    Btw, the priest has no disc spec or healing experience at all. But I can ask the feral druid to go resto as his MS is resto anyways. 3 heals will solve the totem issue but can we make the timer with 3 heals is the question. We need all the spiritual innervation in the world I guess. Any tips for the mitigation of voodoo dmg when DKs are out of CDs?
    He doesn't need any healing experience, and he can change his second spec to a disc spec, can he not?

    Literally all he needs to do is sit there and spam a Holy Fire/Smite macro on the boss (which you can google), and put a PS and PW:B down, and pop SS whenever the healers or tanks call for it.

    If he wants to be more useful, he can throw out Penance and PoM whenever needed or safe as well.

    It's very, very simple. He doesn't even need to change his gear around. As long as he mindbenders on cd, maybe gets your druid's innervates, and his hit cap is from all spirit, he shouldn't need to go under, either. He literally just needs to spam his atonement spells for the entire fight.

  9. #9
    We 2 healed and killed it after 8 pulls. We alternated our Afflic Lock and Boomkin down into the spirit realm. We always sent a healer with the Warlock, who sometimes asked our Hunter to come down to help clean the adds up. Our Boomkin went down solo most of the time, just using instant healing touch and a health stone to heal himself to full.

    The fight felt super fast...we had the boss at about 65% when we sent our fist person down, and of course you can't go down past 20% so it felt like we only sent people down a few times and it was dead. I think our kill was like 4m30s or something. Our average iLvl is about 486.

  10. #10
    Tell your lock to go affliction for this fight.

    1. Use 2 healers and your priest as disc DPS as suggested by others.
    2. Spiritiual buff is stacked by the amount of healing you do on the target. You should aim to get 22 stacks on both DPS in every totem. Any of the two main spec healers can go in the totem first, and then you just rotate as you see fit.
    3. BL in the start. Everyone needs to help do as much damage as possible. Completely ignore the first totem until BL is over.
    4. Never ignore totems or you will be overrun by adds.
    5. No clue. It's not very high.

    After the first totem and in the last 20%, there should never be a point where you have many adds up at a time (maybe tops 5). When leaving the realm there should never be more than 1-2 up.
    Last edited by Kanath; 2012-11-23 at 10:23 AM.

  11. #11
    Thanks guys for helping out, really great tips. 22% of stacks is the way to go then, no ignoring totems and BL at the start. We had some troubles due to late totem announcements, last sec voodoos etc. I have found a nice addon called GarajalAnnounce on curse, which looks like it can help alot with this fight, it covers up every disaster scenario so I think it can help me a bit

    One last question. Me and my raiders use Power Auras and Weak Auras for raids, I have found a cpl of nice aura imports for weak auras to track the Spiritual Innervation using percentages. Does any of you have power auras working with this buff and their stacks properly, could you please export it for me?

    Many thanks again for the awesome tips guys,
    Fred

  12. #12
    Stood in the Fire Riemu2k3's Avatar
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    Here some things from a raidleading and dk-tanking perspective:

    - Have your best geared tank start the fight, since he will most likely be the one to tank <20% if you dont beat the enrage by like 30+ seconds
    - Use Icebound Fortitude at the start and then safe it for the 20% mark to buffer that insane doll damage spike
    - Have both your DK tanks reforge for dodge/parry for this fight. Mastery is useless. Stamina is useless. Have them use Avoidance trinkets (like the stam/darkmoon trinket, has an insane use effect for every rotation). Regem if you have to for complete avoidance. If you have damage troubles, got hit/exp capped -> will result in more tank damage.
    - Have your Offtank taunt the boss everytime his vengeance falls off. He will get 30k Vengeance, but the boss will keep attacking the main tank. Helps to increase your Tank DPS/Raid DPS (will only work when doll is on the tank, dont taunt too soon at the start!)
    - Have your DK tanks use Army/Ghoul everytime its up with full vengance (50k+)
    - Your DK Tanks need to chain their cooldowns: boneshield -> drw -> dodge trinket + boneshield -> icebound fortitude -> external cooldown (painsup from your disc or BoP from the pally)
    - Your pally has 2x BoP -> you need to use that as your emergency cd when your dks dont have cooldowns running and dolls drop low

    - Go with 3 Heals, either Resto or Priest. Priest would be so much better for damage + doll shielding. Resto Druid also has external cooldown (ironbark).
    - Have your Warlock go affli -> dot every add everytime he is down there -> will kill everything/have insane dps at the end
    - Have your Cat rake every target down there -> rake will get them so like 20% hp alone
    - Never send warlock + cat down there together -> waste of dps, since they will clean up everything and prolly have time left
    - You need to destroy totems like super fast so you dont waste dps time -> call out next totems in advance and assign players to it
    - Watch out for when your tanks enters the spirit realm -> the next dps to go down there need to be super fast and kill the big adds or your tank will die

    - Lust at the pull with prepots and every cd. Tell your maintank so use icebound early, so all your healers can dps hard
    - You need to get the boss down to <78-80% at the time lust fades, if you cant, you dont have enough dps to 3 heal it (if you dont have insane executers in your raid)

  13. #13
    How do you 2 heal fight where one healer gets doll and other one has debuff from spirit realm? Doll is always Heal + DPS + Tank.

  14. #14
    Hey guys thx for the replies, a lot of useful advices especially for 2 x DK tanking and yea and I will ask ppl to spec accordingly. We are at 73% when BL ends and with 2 healing so a bit of on the short side but our shaman healer havent helped on last cpl of tries for some reason.. Will ask him..

    Still a bit sceptical about 3 healing as we are short of DPS as it is imo. How we do 2 healing is I ask either the feral druid or the shadow priest to heal inside if that scenario occurs, so 2 hybrids for just in case. That worked for us but the only problem would be the spiritual inner buff not being stacked enough when that occurs and too many adds own us after. We get the boss to 16% with about 1 min remaining on berserk last Thursday so if we can pop healing CDs just when we enter berserk phase tranq from our SP and even from our feral if needed. So I think then if there aint many adds up, it wont be big of an issue or am I wrong? Shall I force it with 3 heals for sometime at least?
    Last edited by freddykr; 2012-11-26 at 06:15 PM.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by freddykr View Post
    Still a bit sceptical about 3 healing as we are short of DPS as it is imo. How we do 2 healing is I ask either the feral druid or the shadow priest to heal inside if that scenario occurs, so 2 hybrids for just in case. That worked for us but the only problem would be the spiritual inner buff not being stacked enough when that occurs and too many adds own us after. We get the boss to 16% with about 1 min remaining on berserk last Thursday so if we can pop healing CDs just when we enter berserk phase tranq from our SP and even from our feral if needed. So I think then if there aint many adds up, it wont be big of an issue or am I wrong? Shall I force it with 3 heals for sometime at least?
    3 healing may look like a dps loss, but in fact it's not so much (especially if disc priest is the 3rd). Having people coming out of the twilight with 22 stacks consistently helps a lot. Also it gives more security in the last phase and on RNG with voodoo dolls.
    For the tanks, I'd suggest to go 2x dps trinkets and dps food/flask. Healers should obviously use int food/flasks as well. From point of view of the 2nd tank (not the one which pulls the boss), you tank the boss twice. As the 2nd tank you'll be banished just before the 20% transition, at this point you should not attack severers of souls but just nuke as many little adds as possible and get sacrificed (and combat ressed immediately). Totem which spawns at almost the same time should be ignored.

  16. #16
    Your current healers aren't great DPSers. The 2 heal + hybrids approach may be best for you. We 3 healed, but used a MW, Disc, and rDrood. All of them pushed DPS while healing. rShaman damage is really low and hPally damage makes them go oom. Since our first kill, we've done the hybrid thing too and it does work (albeit not as smoothly).

    I would have your lock respec. Aff is way better for handling adds.

    I would try this tiered priority system for totems. Take the top priority, one from each group:
    • Dotters: Aff Lock, SP
    • DPS: Mage, Hunter, Rogue
    • Heals: hPally, rSham, Feral (assuming Ferals can offheal... he's your only hybrid that can't dot)

    Spam heal your DPS and let them leave ASAP to get buffed uptime on the boss. Have your Dotter stay down for most of it and DoT everything. If you can't send down a Dotter, both your DPS need to stay down for most of it to clean up. If neither healer can go down, send your Feral. If Ferals can't offheal, you may be stuck. We found it extremely important to get a Dotter down there and a buffed DPS up ASAP. Depending on how geared you guys are, this may or may not be as big of a concern (we did it the first heroic week while fairly undergeared—we actually hit enrage and died just as the boss also died).

    Your specific questions were already answered pretty well, so I'll just leave those alone. Good luck on your kill!

  17. #17
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    When two healing and one healer gets the dolled and the other still has the debuff, well you just send hybrids down alone.

    DKs with succor glyph and a ghoul sac should be fine downstairs. Balance druids, shadow priests and retribution paladins are also fine to go down as well. I am sure there are others that can make out okay as well. Basically the point is you always want at least one DPS going down for each totem. If you fall behind on one totem phase you just send two DPS down on the next totem until the double dotter he is paired with feels comfortable enough.

    Basically we send shadow priest and affliction lock with a healer down always. If adds get out of control we send a DK, mage, ret paladin or our monk down. They usually kill 3-4 to which the dot class feels comfortable with the rest. At that point the second DPS leaves early and goes back up. Like I highlighted in the previous paragraph if both healers are unable to go down we send down the best available DPS by themselves that have the ability to top themselves off. It will work itself out on the next totem and you will likely have to send two DPS down, but that's the sacrifice you make by two healing it.

    Two heal is probably the best way to go if you're DPS is lacking and/or you have a couple options with hybrids taking totems solo. If you're super comfortable on enrage do a disc priest as your third healer and you shouldn't have any problems.

  18. #18
    Thanks for all the replies guys. We ended up going with 2 healers, SP and feral druid as hybrids. We wiped around 0.6% twice (around 1.1m hp) and on a better try when healers buff the dps slightly better, we got him down with 20 secs on the clock, with a tank & a dps down :P We used a tranq around 26% to stabilize the hps and another around 12% when the dmg was crazy.

    It was a bit messy but a kill nevertheless.. The advices here helped alot, especially the frenzy phase handling. I am in the process of uploading the kill video guys.

    Thanks a lot everyone, now on to elegon heroic which seemed easier after a few tries but heard p3 will be crazy..

    Fred
    Last edited by freddykr; 2012-11-27 at 12:30 PM.

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