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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Psyopz View Post
    You were not optimizing your DPS; you were deliberately gimping your DPS by playing a weaker spec. I would not give you a spot in my raid if you even paid me.
    And I wouldn't want to join your raid even if you paid me.

    Seriously, how can you people demand the highest damage dealing spec? Unless you're in one of the top progressing guilds it really doesn't matter.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by santa666 View Post
    Care to explain how you would estimates ones dps based on his current gear ?
    Without an indicator of what your character is able to perform, how would you know if you're under performing or not ?

    Why is it elitist wanting to perform your best ? :s

    If you are doing the right rotations and managing your cooldowns correctly you can't really do much more.

    Using simulations to find out the correct enchants etc is on the other hand more or less the only way to do it.


    It's not elitist to want to be good. It is elitist to point casual raiders towards a simulation and tell them: Here's how you should play.

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by ErayoEU View Post
    But it is exactly that! It's an estimate of what your class, under perfect conditions could perform. Not something anyone should be measured after.

    Finding out rotations/gear/geming/enchanting/etc is another topic and not something I thught we were discussing here.
    No. It's nothing to do with perfect conditions - you just don't know how to use it properly. You can simulate movement, multiple targets, latency, human error, even a level of skill. You have to carry some basic intelligence about what might not be appropriate for a specific encounter, but many top Warlocks swear by simcraft. It also presents an acceptable "range" of dps that non perfect play should present.

  4. #144
    Being a good raider is not about numbers. Its about being flexible and generally like-able and quick to adapt change. seems like 9/10ths of the raid is doing everything they can to progress, you are the minority. Simply lolnormals i can be bad and do bad and its np, is a terrible attitude and not a good fit for a TEAM thing, casual progression or not if 9/10 people are willing to adapt and your not, you just arent a good fit.
    I play many games. WoW, Rift, D3, PoE, SC2 I will not criticize your game choice if you don't mine.

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Chaozu View Post
    And I wouldn't want to join your raid even if you paid me.

    Seriously, how can you people demand the highest damage dealing spec? Unless you're in one of the top progressing guilds it really doesn't matter.

    Because it might matter to the other 9 or 24 people who would like to down the boss and stop wasting time because you cant optimize your play.

  6. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by ErayoEU View Post
    It's not elitist to want to be good. It is elitist to point casual raiders towards a simulation and tell them: Here's how you should play.
    Evralia already said what i was going to, so ill just touch on the last part.

    If the simulations points to a dps discrepancy between specs for whatever x number, why is it so wrong to give some basis as to why they want him to change spec ?
    Wouldn't it be worse to just say, "Play this or we'll kick you" without offering any facts as to why (sims) ?

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Rustweaver View Post
    We have a Hunter in our guild that is hell-bent on Being MM and is always - always - last on DPS. Often behind or on par with our tanks and it's just so aggravating because we simply don't have the roster to replace him. He's a great guy and has been in the guild for awhile but when he is pulling 35k on most boss fights and being stubborn about swapping to BM or even Survival, it's just a lot more weight placed on the rest of the group when others aren't performing as best as they can and that's frustrating at any level of play.

    We've actually had pugs do better than a couple of our DPS because of L2P issues and I'm now in the position to speak with the other officers and GM that pugs may be the ultimate answer until he realizes he's a burden on the rest of us and stops trying to justify his low numbers. After so many 1x% enrage wipes on Spiritbinder for nearly four weeks, something's gotta give with some of our DPS and it's no longer a gear issue since this hunter in question is ~475 item level.
    As a hunter:

    1. Your guild's hunter is probably bad. An MM hunter who knows their class in blue Heroic gear should be able to pull at least 40k in a raid environment, not to mention now when they should have access to LFR and VP gear.

    2. Regardless of player skill, in normal mode fights this tier hunter will always have comparably low dps assuming your other DPS know what they are doing. I've had a couple of rare occasions where tanks pulled ahead of me (Brewmaster is super OP atm and our warrior tank has had some attacks hit harder than my Kill Shot when it crits, but that was when vengeance was stupidly broken).

  8. #148
    if you were in a hardcore/progressing guild yes i would understand it.
    but casual? pfftt
    best advice is, find a new guild tbh.

    my hunter is and was and in only ever played MM and i know in current content is sucks.
    its just when i change and i practise for an hour on a dummy. i would still have it wrong. and i really really cba to do that for that 1 raid i do for like 1 in the 2 weeks perhaps? i would just never learn the spec. reason i am staying MM
    edit: i just read the post above above about a MM hunter doing 35k with 474 gear.
    yes he is just bad dps. he should do like 10k more at least.

    some ppl just forgetting that we all started this game mostly for 1 reason.
    to have fun, entertainment.
    ok some things ingame arent fun to do, but needed. but as being casual and mostly having fun. ye sure go your own way.
    Last edited by Frizzlewits; 2012-11-22 at 10:57 PM.

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by stomination View Post
    Because it might matter to the other 9 or 24 people who would like to down the boss and stop wasting time because you cant optimize your play.
    The three Warlock specs aren't THAT far apart from each other, all three do enough damage to deal with the bosses on normal difficulty and if you're hitting enrage timers it probably has more to do with the damage of your raid as a whole.

    I play Demonology and still top the meters in our raid, if I learned Affliction I could increase my damage even further but I feel that Demonology does a lot more than necessary and that's the spec I'm comfortable with.

    To hear that some people would not invite me simply because I'm not playing the current highest damage dealing spec, is just ridiculous. Damn I'm glad I'm playing with a guild because I actually like them and enjoy their company, rather than to take part of some silly competition trying to min-max everything. Sounds incredibly dull and boring.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Chaozu View Post
    And I wouldn't want to join your raid even if you paid me.

    Seriously, how can you people demand the highest damage dealing spec? Unless you're in one of the top progressing guilds it really doesn't matter.
    Agreed. As OP said, if they aren't having problems with enrages then there should be no real pressure on them to switch.

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by evralia View Post
    No. It's nothing to do with perfect conditions - you just don't know how to use it properly. You can simulate movement, multiple targets, latency, human error, even a level of skill. You have to carry some basic intelligence about what might not be appropriate for a specific encounter, but many top Warlocks swear by simcraft. It also presents an acceptable "range" of dps that non perfect play should present.

    I really need to go to sleep. So I'll just agree to disagree. I think people pay too much attention to simcrafts. Since they don't really offer you anything. Yeah, if you are one the very tip top end of raiding, sure. But if you are where 95% if the raiders are simcrafts doesn't really bring that much to the table. Other than rotations, gems etc.

  12. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frizzlewits View Post
    my hunter is and was and in only ever played MM and i know in current content is sucks.
    its just when i change and i practise for an hour on a dummy. i would still have it wrong. and i really really cba to do that for that 1 raid i do for like 1 in the 2 weeks perhaps? i would just never learn the spec. reason i am staying MM.
    1 hour for a totally unfamiliar spec(?) is nothing.
    You also have, dungeons, looking for raid, scenarios, for a somewhat realistic "raid" scenario for you to practice in.

    Compare 1 hour to the hours you spent playin MM, does it seem like a fair time investment to base it on ?

    Last, you also have dual spec, you dont have to quit MM but being able to play 2/3 specs as a pure dps, isn't that much to ask imo.

  13. #153
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    No. It's nothing to do with perfect conditions - you just don't know how to use it properly. You can simulate movement, multiple targets, latency, human error, even a level of skill. You have to carry some basic intelligence about what might not be appropriate for a specific encounter, but many top Warlocks swear by simcraft. It also presents an acceptable "range" of dps that non perfect play should present.
    But 99% of the players just read the perfect Patchwerk single target results on Simulationcraft and take them for granted, so yeah, his opinion is rather true.
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  14. #154
    Wow, getting kicked from a raid for bad performance while raiding with a guild of casuals. I'd consider that the ultimate insult for a pve-er.

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by ErayoEU View Post
    But it is exactly that! It's an estimate of what your class, under perfect conditions could perform. Not something anyone should be measured after.

    Finding out rotations/gear/geming/enchanting/etc is another topic and not something I thught we were discussing here.
    There are alot of simulators that kinda do different things.... there's even simulator's that calculate DPS with the removal of buffs, addition of debuffs even light or heavy movement for a boss fight... You have the choice to add consumables and cooldowns!

    I don't know if you've seen the collection the internet has to offer ^^; Simcraft for one is quite powerful and calculates on situations, including an array of other options.

    But I think you should understand the word "estimate" it's not meant to be taken as a gospel-truth that your class can do that, you know some people can under perform and others go way overboard! So I think you're slightly misinterpreting the reasoning of why it's been spoken ^_^, it's just a bar to aim for and I don't see that as being a bad thing because we all set goals to achieve... It's down to choice of course but generally, you don't play world of warcraft without wanting to achieve something even small things like max level.
    Last edited by xEvangelionx; 2012-11-22 at 11:03 PM.
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  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Chaozu View Post
    And I wouldn't want to join your raid even if you paid me.

    Seriously, how can you people demand the highest damage dealing spec? Unless you're in one of the top progressing guilds it really doesn't matter.
    Let's pretend for a second you are not in this top progression guild. Let's pretend you don't hit enrage timers because your healers are going OOM at roughly the 5-6 minute mark. You do realize that the more DPS the group does the faster the boss dies, the less mana that's needed, right?

    If every DPS showed up to a raid and said "fuck it I'm going to play X spec and pick all these sub-optimal talent choices" you would honestly be hurting the overall raid. If your class is capable of pulling more numbers but >YOU< decide to simply ignore that, you should still be given a spot over an equally skilled player, who is willing to play the top spec and chose the proper talents? Why exactly?

    Every single enrage timer wipe is PURELY the fault of your DPS team. If they all showed a little respect for the rest of the raid and specced the proper way, gemmed the proper way, chose the proper enchants and flat out just "cared", every guild who isn't top, say, 250 would go so much smoother in raids.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-22 at 06:03 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad Jim View Post
    Wow, getting kicked from a raid for bad performance while raiding with a guild of casuals. I'd consider that the ultimate insult for a pve-er.
    Casual to me means nothing more than they can only play ~5 hours a week. Casual to me (and a majority of the "real" raiding community) does not mean baddie.

    Note: When I say "real" raiding community, I don't mean people who equal casual to being a baddie when in essence they are a casual by their own definition.

  17. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pengalor View Post
    Jeez, this game's community really does suck, just look at some of the replies in this thread. I feel your pain OP, when my guild was doing 10 mans I was constantly getting sat (though for me my only option would be to re-roll since I'm a hunter, my best spec is maybe 5-6k above my worst and they are all terrible). Blizzard has really screwed up balance so far with this expac and it's seriously hurting guilds and players.
    It only sucks for players who strive for mediocrity. If your best spec is 5 - 6k above your worst as a Hunter, no wonder you're being sat. Even MM Hunters and Arcane Magi can pull proper numbers to effectively raid in normal mode if played properly but therein lies the problem.

    If you chose to play a spec which is low on the DPS totem poll, you damn well better play it well or else you'll soon find that nobody wants you to raid with them and you've painted yourself in to a corner for being 'bad'. Classes such as Hunters have no reason or excuse to cry foul about being benched because they have BM which is a damn fine raiding spec where even an average player can pull out equal or better dps than a good MM hunter.

    But, again, players who strive for mediocrity would rather put a burden on the others and get carried than do well.
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  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by ErayoEU View Post
    I really need to go to sleep. So I'll just agree to disagree. I think people pay too much attention to simcrafts. Since they don't really offer you anything. Yeah, if you are one the very tip top end of raiding, sure. But if you are where 95% if the raiders are simcrafts doesn't really bring that much to the table. Other than rotations, gems etc.
    Why do you have to be in the "tip top end" of players to care about playing properly? Yea, the word "properly" is the correct word to use here. Playing a MM hunter (in PvE currently) is not playing your class properly. Playing a Destro lock is not playing your class properly, etc, etc.

    If more people actually "cared" (and that doesn't mean you have to spend 2 hours every-time before logging in studying or something) about the other people in the raid, there would be so much more enjoyment from everyone in raids.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Chaozu View Post
    The three Warlock specs aren't THAT far apart from each other, all three do enough damage to deal with the bosses on normal difficulty and if you're hitting enrage timers it probably has more to do with the damage of your raid as a whole.

    I play Demonology and still top the meters in our raid, if I learned Affliction I could increase my damage even further but I feel that Demonology does a lot more than necessary and that's the spec I'm comfortable with.

    To hear that some people would not invite me simply because I'm not playing the current highest damage dealing spec, is just ridiculous. Damn I'm glad I'm playing with a guild because I actually like them and enjoy their company, rather than to take part of some silly competition trying to min-max everything. Sounds incredibly dull and boring.
    First http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/#1o

    Now this is just taking the top 100 logs from each spec. U can un-click everyone and just look at the warlock specs. As you can plainly see that affliction is in a better spot than the other specs. Now this does not say that demonology has its spot on some fights. Its kind of like this guy in my guild who does play demonology pretty much but he has to switch to affliction for a few fights because demonology just does not come close in that fight.

    This is where the op fails. He does not do whats best for the team/guild.

    Hell who knows what spec will be nerfed or buffed next. Demonology might get nerfed down to shit one day.

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by alturic View Post
    Let's pretend for a second you are not in this top progression guild. Let's pretend you don't hit enrage timers because your healers are going OOM at roughly the 5-6 minute mark. You do realize that the more DPS the group does the faster the boss dies, the less mana that's needed, right?

    If every DPS showed up to a raid and said "fuck it I'm going to play X spec and pick all these sub-optimal talent choices" you would honestly be hurting the overall raid. If your class is capable of pulling more numbers but >YOU< decide to simply ignore that, you should still be given a spot over an equally skilled player, who is willing to play the top spec and chose the proper talents? Why exactly?

    Every single enrage timer wipe is PURELY the fault of your DPS team. If they all showed a little respect for the rest of the raid and specced the proper way, gemmed the proper way, chose the proper enchants and flat out just "cared", every guild who isn't top, say, 250 would go so much smoother in raids.
    Riiight... You ever heard of exaggeration? There's a difference between choosing what spec to play and just not bothering to even learn it. You still have to actually learn the spec you do choose if you wish to down anything in raids, or even be brought in to begin with.

    The thing is though that the three specs of Warlocks are quite close together in terms of how much damage they can put out, and the boss fights are designed to be doable even in Destruction which is the worst of the three. If you're hitting enrage timers chances are far more likely that the raid as a whole is screwing up.

    So yes I'm definitely going to choose Demonology over Affliction even though I know that it deals less damage, and no I'm not going to look up every single tip and secret to maximize my damage fully. Why? Because I can't be arsed, I don't care that much about it to look up everything and I'm topping the meters anyways so.

    You want to know a little secret? I don't even pre-pot before each encounter, nor precast! Not a single one in our raid does yet we still down the bosses! *Shocked*

    Unless you're highly competitive and progressive your raid really, really doesn't need to maximize damage that much.

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