Just got kicked from my casual guild for refusing to play affliction-hug this kitten

[Deleted]

Casual to me means nothing more than they can only play ~5 hours a week. Casual to me (and a majority of the "real" raiding community) does not mean baddie.
Note: When I say "real" raiding community, I don't mean people who equal casual to being a baddie when in essence they are a casual by their own definition.

I'm sorry but it does mean baddie. Casuals don't raid as much, ergo they won't be so familiar with the game mechanics, nor have the gear of people who raid more. Indirectly, they will indeed become baddies.

[stomination]

I really need to go to sleep. So I'll just agree to disagree. I think people pay too much attention to simcrafts. Since they don't really offer you anything. Yeah, if you are one the very tip top end of raiding, sure. But if you are where 95% if the raiders are simcrafts doesn't really bring that much to the table. Other than rotations, gems etc.

Not just about simcrafts. World of logs are quite easy to read and see whats actually better for fights.

[Pengalor]

It only sucks for players who strive for mediocrity. If your best spec is 5 - 6k above your worst as a Hunter, no wonder you're being sat. Even MM Hunters and Arcane Magi can pull proper numbers to effectively raid in normal mode if played properly but therein lies the problem.

If you chose to play a spec which is low on the DPS totem poll, you damn well better play it well or else you'll soon find that nobody wants you to raid with them and you've painted yourself in to a corner for being 'bad'. Classes such as Hunters have no reason or excuse to cry foul about being benched because they have BM which is a damn fine raiding spec where even an average player can pull out equal or better dps than a good MM hunter.

But, again, players who strive for mediocrity would rather put a burden on the others and get carried than do well.

I pull perfectly reasonable numbers for my class lol. I play Surv/BM and my DPS is fine, but there's no reason to take a hunter over a fire mage for, say, Elegon (the fight I was sat on mostly). And we have plenty of reason to cry foul, our best spec is middle of the road AS A PURE DPS CLASS. That's a serious problem.

However, feel free to keep assuming the reason I'm sat is because I'm bad.

[Deleted]

Your opinion is obviously not compatible with the guilds, why don't you just find another guild where everyone plays whatever they want?

Where would you draw the line btw? Is it fine for a healer to say that they find healing boring and come to a raid in dps spec/gear?

[Deleted]

First http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/#1o

Now this is just taking the top 100 logs from each spec. U can un-click everyone and just look at the warlock specs. As you can plainly see that affliction is in a better spot than the other specs. Now this does not say that demonology has its spot on some fights. Its kind of like this guy in my guild who does play demonology pretty much but he has to switch to affliction for a few fights because demonology just does not come close in that fight.

This is where the op fails. He does not do whats best for the team/guild.

Hell who knows what spec will be nerfed or buffed next. Demonology might get nerfed down to shit one day.

For as long as the guild is downing bosses and progressing further, not hitting enrage timers, it doesn't matter if you're playing the most optimal spec or not.

If you're hitting enrage timers on normal mode chances are more likely the raid is having other problems than the most optimal spec.

The day your raid does everything to down a boss and it's just barely not enough, is the day I might consider changing.

[Pengalor]

WoW! Someone who actually "get's it".

More like someone who knows nothing about hunters.

Wow, just noticed, he's a Frost DK LOL. No wonder, he's got one of the easiest DPS classes/specs for the numbers.

[Radoria]

Let's pretend for a second you are not in this top progression guild. Let's pretend you don't hit enrage timers because your healers are going OOM at roughly the 5-6 minute mark. You do realize that the more DPS the group does the faster the boss dies, the less mana that's needed, right?

If every DPS showed up to a raid and said "fuck it I'm going to play X spec and pick all these sub-optimal talent choices" you would honestly be hurting the overall raid. If your class is capable of pulling more numbers but >YOU< decide to simply ignore that, you should still be given a spot over an equally skilled player, who is willing to play the top spec and chose the proper talents? Why exactly?

Every single enrage timer wipe is PURELY the fault of your DPS team. If they all showed a little respect for the rest of the raid and specced the proper way, gemmed the proper way, chose the proper enchants and flat out just "cared", every guild who isn't top, say, 250 would go so much smoother in raids.

---------- Post added 2012-11-22 at 06:03 PM ----------



Casual to me means nothing more than they can only play ~5 hours a week. Casual to me (and a majority of the "real" raiding community) does not mean baddie.

Note: When I say "real" raiding community, I don't mean people who equal casual to being a baddie when in essence they are a casual by their own definition.

Everything you said is accurate, but some people play better with a spec that's not the optimal one. I don't know much about locks cause I never played one, but if a guy is able to pull more dps with a spec that he enjoys, I'd just say go for it. Sure, if you're hardcore you can tell this guy to fuck off or L2P the optimal spec because you're only going to take the best of the best, but in a casual guild kicking someone for this reason is just silly to me. Some people perform better on shittier specs.

[Pengalor]

For as long as the guild is downing bosses and progressing further, not hitting enrage timers, it doesn't matter if you're playing the most optimal spec or not.

If you're hitting enrage timers on normal mode chances are more likely the raid is having other problems than the most optimal spec.

The day your raid does everything to down a boss and it's just barely not enough, is the day I might consider changing.

Exactly. He is getting sat when, as one of the best DPS classes in the game right now, he is using a slightly less optimal spec. Unless he's just plain awful I can guarantee that one person changing specs is not saving the raid.

[Deleted]

Why do you have to be in the "tip top end" of players to care about playing properly? Yea, the word "properly" is the correct word to use here. Playing a MM hunter (in PvE currently) is not playing your class properly. Playing a Destro lock is not playing your class properly, etc, etc.

If more people actually "cared" (and that doesn't mean you have to spend 2 hours every-time before logging in studying or something) about the other people in the raid, there would be so much more enjoyment from everyone in raids.

Just out of curiousity, why is playing a certain spec wrong? Perhaps I am misunderstanding the wording or not able to see your point... but you don't need to play the flavour-of-the-month spec to play the class "correctly". If you understand the concept of the class and it's mechanisms an individual can outplay any other spec, that's the joys for a multi-DPS specc'd class...

Assuming on the path that spec dictates the correct-playing of the class does that mean hybrid class i.e tank, healer, DPS should change specs? Like Brewmaster Monks are doing better DPS then Windwalkers... does that mean according to your statement they should all reroll Brewmasters? ^^;;.

[alturic]

Riiight... You ever heard of exaggeration? There's a difference between choosing what spec to play and just not bothering to even learn it. You still have to actually learn the spec you do choose if you wish to down anything in raids, or even be brought in to begin with.

The thing is though that the three specs of Warlocks are quite close together in terms of how much damage they can put out, and the boss fights are designed to be doable even in Destruction which is the worst of the three. If you're hitting enrage timers chances are far more likely that the raid as a whole is screwing up.

So yes I'm definitely going to choose Demonology over Affliction even though I know that it deals less damage, and no I'm not going to look up every single tip and secret to maximize my damage fully. Why? Because I can't be arsed, I don't care that much about it to look up everything and I'm topping the meters anyways so.

You want to know a little secret? I don't even pre-pot before each encounter, nor precast! Not a single one in our raid does yet we still down then! *Shocked*

Unless you're highly competitive and progressive your raid really, really doesn't need to maximize damage that much.

The problem is WHY wouldn't you care to do the maximum potential of your class? You are 100% correct that it's very uncommon (except for those sub 1% wipes, in which point I want to kick the teeth in of every person who didn't pot twice during the fight) for one person to bring the entire raid down unless they are someone 10k+ dps behing the rest of the group.

Oh wait, you answered my question. You said it yourself, you "don't care" about the other people in the raid. If you are topping the meters as destro btw, I hope the rest of your group composes of classes in healing specs but doing DPS because that shouldn't be the case unless you severely outgear them.

The problem isn't when you still down bosses either, I hope you didn't take it as me saying that. The problem is you start looking into things when you are dying to enrage timers, hence all the above things come into play.

Finally, you don't have to be in a "highly competitive" guild (although I was under the impression by nature we are all competitive) to care about at least TRYING to do the maximum your class offers.

[Athorha]

Remember this;

Hardcore - Plays a lot of hours in the game.
Casual - Plays a few hours of the game.

By that logic blood legion is a more casual guild than most progression guilds. Simply because they spend an extreme amount of hours the first week(s) of progression followed by 1-2 raid nights for the rest of that tier, resulting in a lesser overall amount of time commitment.

[Elmi]

Sorry for changing that brilliant title.

Please talk in a civilised manner, thanks.

[Azrile]

You didn't get "kicked" because your current spec isn't viable, but because your dps sucks and you refuse to do something about that.

This was my thinking. If his guild is casual, that means the other DPS probably aren´t really doing top dps either. Even if your desired spec isn´t the best dps spec at the moment, there should be enough wiggle-room for you to be able to do competitive dps in a casual guild.

I believe we are only hearing one side of the story, or more likely, you are just a bad dps and your spec has only a smart part to play in it.

[alturic]

I'm sorry but it does mean baddie. Casuals don't raid as much, ergo they won't be so familiar with the game mechanics, nor have the gear of people who raid more. Indirectly, they will indeed become baddies.

What is your definition of baddie ooc? It's definitely difference than the majority of players in the game apparently.

Baddie = shit dps, stands in all the pretty colors, etc.

I guess you might be one of those people who determines someone skill by the gear they wear or something? Shit dps is not tied directly to gear, more often than not actually it's tied to someone not understanding how to play their class.

I hope you realize you are essentially (after the first 2-4 weeks of content being released) calling top 20 guilds, casuals (which by your definition means baddies) right? You do realize top guilds clear content that other guilds raids 4-7 days, in 2-3 hours right?

[Deleted]

The problem is WHY wouldn't you care to do the maximum potential of your class? You are 100% correct that it's very uncommon (except for those sub 1% wipes, in which point I want to kick the teeth in of every person who didn't pot twice during the fight) for one person to bring the entire raid down unless they are someone 10k+ dps behing the rest of the group.

Oh wait, you answered my question. You said it yourself, you "don't care" about the other people in the raid. If you are topping the meters as destro btw, I hope the rest of your group composes of classes in healing specs but doing DPS because that shouldn't be the case unless you severely outgear them.

The problem isn't when you still down bosses either, I hope you didn't take it as me saying that. The problem is you start looking into things when you are dying to enrage timers, hence all the above things come into play.

Finally, you don't have to be in a "highly competitive" guild (although I was under the impression by nature we are all competitive) to care about at least TRYING to do the maximum your class offers.

I never stated I was destro, I said several times I was Demonology, it's in the post you quoted... Way to read my post!

The reason I play Demonology is as I described before, because I don't feel comfortable with Affliction, not in the slightest. And I can definitely understand that someone prefers Destruction over Demonology and Affiction as well.

I've learned my class and do well with it, but I'm not going to say that I do my best because I'm not. That would involve loads of testing, research, again testing, to tinker up the damage with 0.X % or maaaybe a couple of %, such low numbers that it won't even make a difference. That's the part I can't be arsed about, neither can anyone else in my guild. All of us know our class and spec, but nobody uses simcraft to maximize it to the absolute best, yet we still down bosses and progress further!

I wonder why that is...

[alturic]

For as long as the guild is downing bosses and progressing further, not hitting enrage timers, it doesn't matter if you're playing the most optimal spec or not.

If you're hitting enrage timers on normal mode chances are more likely the raid is having other problems than the most optimal spec.

The day your raid does everything to down a boss and it's just barely not enough, is the day I might consider changing.

Maybe that's where the disconnect is between us, I'm not saying it's not "acceptable", I'm saying why wouldn't someone want to try doing the maximum their class could offer?

[Pengalor]

This was my thinking. If his guild is casual, that means the other DPS probably aren´t really doing top dps either. Even if your desired spec isn´t the best dps spec at the moment, there should be enough wiggle-room for you to be able to do competitive dps in a casual guild.

I believe we are only hearing one side of the story, or more likely, you are just a bad dps and your spec has only a smart part to play in it.

It's entirely possible that we're not hearing the whole thing but here's my logic: If he is a terrible player or just a jerk in raid or something then why are they asking him to switch specs? If he's a jerk spec won't make a difference obviously and if he's just doing terrible DPS then changing spec won't change that, it's almost always a problem with understanding fundamental class mechanics or rotation, changing spec doesn't change how they understand the class.

[alturic]

Just out of curiousity, why is playing a certain spec wrong? Perhaps I am misunderstanding the wording or not able to see your point... but you don't need to play the flavour-of-the-month spec to play the class "correctly". If you understand the concept of the class and it's mechanisms an individual can outplay any other spec, that's the joys for a multi-DPS specc'd class...

Assuming on the path that spec dictates the correct-playing of the class does that mean hybrid class i.e tank, healer, DPS should change specs? Like Brewmaster Monks are doing better DPS then Windwalkers... does that mean according to your statement they should all reroll Brewmasters? ^^;;.

Because as soon as a "optimal" specced player of your class comes along you should (and most likely would) get sat/replaced by him. Just because you can't pull higher numbers in the "best" (current) spec of your class doesn't mean you are "better" than someone who can play the "top" spec and pull higher numbers than your "highest" in the sub-optimal spec.

[Pengalor]

What is your definition of baddie ooc? It's definitely difference than the majority of players in the game apparently.

Baddie = shit dps, stands in all the pretty colors, etc.

I guess you might be one of those people who determines someone skill by the gear they wear or something? Shit dps is not tied directly to gear, more often than not actually it's tied to someone not understanding how to play their class.

I hope you realize you are essentially (after the first 2-4 weeks of content being released) calling top 20 guilds, casuals (which by your definition means baddies) right? You do realize top guilds clear content that other guilds raids 4-7 days, in 2-3 hours right?

Yup, in fact, logic would dictate that, when comparing two guilds who clear the same content, the guild that takes the LEAST amount of time raiding is better since that means they spent less time wiping and took less time to learn and understand the mechanics. The amount of time someone spends means nothing in terms of skill.

---------- Post added 2012-11-22 at 03:24 PM ----------

Maybe that's where the disconnect is between us, I'm not saying it's not "acceptable", I'm saying why wouldn't someone want to try doing the maximum their class could offer?

When it's simply not fun? Take arcane mages in Cata. They were incredible DPS but who really wants to play a spec that isn't fun? Many went fire since it was actually enjoyable to play. When all specs can at least perform then casual raiders shouldn't be made to choose a spec they don't enjoy.

[alturic]

I never stated I was destro, I said several times I was Demonology, it's in the post you quoted... Way to read my post!

The reason I play Demonology is as I described before, because I don't feel comfortable with Affliction, not in the slightest. And I can definitely understand that someone prefers Destruction over Demonology and Affiction as well.

I've learned my class and do well with it, but I'm not going to say that I do my best because I'm not. That would involve loads of testing, research, again testing, to tinker up the damage with 0.X % or maaaybe a couple of %, such low numbers that it won't even make a difference. That's the part I can't be arsed about, neither can anyone else in my guild. All of us know our class and spec, but nobody uses simcraft to maximize it to the absolute best, yet we still down bosses and progress further!

I wonder why that is...

Oh, I wasn't even trying to reference you as a player, more-so you as a person. I didn't even know you played a lock. I was using the specs PURELY as examples.