Survival and how to complicate things even further.

[Deleted]

Hiya

Ok, due to me being an*l I cannot simply let this go, so bare with me.

Most of us know that all our traps trigger LnL procs. Pre-launching a trap in the bosses path before a pull will give you an instant LnL proc, etc, etc.

Ok so yesterday in LFR I started to play around in forcing LnL procs with traps during the fight aswell. From my findings I cannot conclude other then that LnL procs from Ice Trap is on another ICD then from BA/ExT, which is what I read from other sources anyhow. With good timing I found that I could reliably force LnL procs after a recent BA LnL proc thus increasing the number of ES by a nice margin.

The timing wasn't difficult, just wait for a BA LnL proc and fire off those ES, wait for the CD to reach 2 sec, launch a Ice Trap under the boss. The traveltime for the trap and perhaps an "arming" ICD will make ES come off CD, fire that and during the ES induced GCD you will have a LnL proc for another three ES.

Im unsure if Ice trap and Snake trap share LnL ICD, I think that I was able to force another LnL proc after the Ice Trap forced one but with he limited testing it could have been another BA LnL.
That would make the "Rotation". (BA-LnL)-ES-ES-ES-filler-filler-filler-Ice Trap-ES-(IT-LnL)-ES-ES-ES-filler-filler-filler-Snake Trap-ES-(ST-LnL)-ES-ES-ES-Brain Bleed.

Is there any math done on this? I could not find anything on EJ on it. With the 2 piece bonus this "rotation" might be a DPS increase but is it worth it since our button whack-a-mole becomes even worse while juggeling all our CD and not capping focus?

I can ofcourse be completly wrong and just a noob aswell however traps do proc LnL even if the bosses are immune.

[Migrin]

Well, if it is not a dps increase without the set bonus it will most probably not be one with it either. Keep in mind that the bonus for SV is 5% and not 15% as for BM and MM.
Regarding the fact, that even with your forced LnL rota, a big chunk of your damage will be your pet and auto attacks, this will probably net out as a max 2.5% damage increase.

[Deleted]

Messed around a bit on dummies and I think it's because lnl proc from ice trap is still 6sec cd instead of the new 10sec. I can for instance IT-Readiness-ES(proc)-ES(proc)-ES-filler-filler-filler-IT-ES-ES(proc)-ES(proc)-ES.

But I did a few 5min tests on the dummies and it didn't seem to change dps by a lot (from -1% to +1%dps). I don't have 2p or 4p tho so those might help a lot to gain a bigger difference.
(EDIT: I kept strict rotation of only proccing with IT after a BA proc. When my BA never proced or only procced once, I didn't replace it with IT proc for instance which means I didn't get the maximum out of this thing)
I also didn't have too much trouble to keep SrS up but I assume on fights like wote or amber shaper it would be total hell to do this rotation.

I'm very interested to see someone input this into a sim rather than me doing an hour of dummies.

[CrenVerdis]

Shouldn't it only procc if the Boss/Mob is affected by the trap?
To my knowledge Bosses don't trigger LnL via IT. But on Add fights like Will or Tsulong this is good to know.

[Deleted]

Bosses definatly procs LnL via IT even if they are immune to the effect of the trap. It looks to me that the trap triggering (which bosses and immune do) procs is not the effect of the trap itself.

I had problems with keeping SrS up due to tunneling mostly. I was messing around. But say if you increase the number of ES shots in a bossfight by 10-15% in exchange for less AS dumping. Id say that would be a net DPS increase in theory

I have no idea how to sim it, so I agree with StijnDP.

[Butu]

I just tried this on the target dummies and could not force LnL to proc before the 10 second ICD under any circumstances (and yes, target dummies do proc traps). I was using the wow stopwatch to count time between procs and the icd seemed to be exactly 10 seconds no matter what abilites were used to proc LnL. Can you test this for yourself just to be certain?

To me it seems you semi-accidentaly forced the procs to happen outside the 10 sec ICD window in your LFR run. Using trap to force proc would probably be a dps loss, since you loose one gcd to only force a proc which might have procced anyway from black arrow. Also, Snake Trap doesn't proc LnL.

Edit: I tried to simulate this, but SimC doesn't have ice trap nor freezing trap. I also checked the source code and it doesn't have separate cooldowns for the three trap types, so it is just not possible to simulate right now.

[TheTrueM4gg0t]

I like these sort of ideas! nice to see people trying to tickle out every single bit of dmg out of their class :-)
I do see the possibility of it being a DPS gain. there is a 6sec hole after the last BA tick, where there are no proccs possible, if you could force one there, you would gain a few proccs over the fight. (maybe delay BA for a few seconds after the procc, for even higher proccchance. would lose a bit of direct dmg of BA though)

I guess I'll fiddle arround with this in the next LFR raids, and see what you could do :-) thanks for the tipp

[eschatological]

I haven't been able to force a proc outside of the 10s ICD, but I don't use ice trap unless there's things to snare.

[Deleted]

Yea, no... I couldn't reproduce the rotation when I went back testing yesterday so I pretty sure there isn't separate ICDs for triggering LnL. I must have been smoking Sorry about teh ruckus.

So the usability I see for forcing LnL with IT is:

1. Pre-placing in pullpath, is messes up a bit on initial rotation.
2. Perhaps what TheTrueM4gg0t says, forcing a LnL in the "BA hole" if ICD is off and you didnt get lucky on a late BA induced one.


A thing that bothers me is I find myself quite often "knowing" a LnL that will overwrite the normal ES that is just coming off cd. I see the CD ticking down lining up with the ICD on LnL counting down coming off just a few seconds before ES just before I manage to fire ES (spamming it) LnL procs overwriting my normal ES.

[Windthorn]

I don't think theres a forced LnL from placing icetrap on a boss and has been like that for a longtime, only when you have adds such as those on Feng Hc can Icetrap be used to trigger extra LnL procs.

[Kimbald]

Not playing forthe moment, so can't contribute anything meaningfull.

Just wondering: snake trap procs LnL now?

I kept following hunter changes after I quit, but I missed that one.

[Butu]

I don't think theres a forced LnL from placing icetrap on a boss and has been like that for a longtime, only when you have adds such as those on Feng Hc can Icetrap be used to trigger extra LnL procs.

LnL will always proc if either of your frost traps activate and LnL is of the ICD, doesn't matter if the enemy is affected by the trap or not.

Not playing forthe moment, so can't contribute anything meaningfull.

Just wondering: snake trap procs LnL now?

I kept following hunter changes after I quit, but I missed that one.

Snake Trap doesn't proc LnL.

[Rackfu]

Keep in mind that your fellow raiders (especially tanks and melee dps) might not appreciate you dropping frost traps under the boss and making it even harder for them to avoid standing in bad stuff.

[rjambi]

Ice traps aren't going to slow down people in your group....

[Deleted]

Ice traps aren't going to slow down people in your group....

But it covers the ground in white shit making it harder to SEE the things you need to avoid.

[cheddargrits]

I would skip the trap launch, the dps increase is not worth the gcd wasted while you are pre-potted. So the problem to me is you launch the trap super early and have the tank pulls the boss to the trap so you can pre-pot or you hit your pot then launch the trap wasting a gcd.

[Rackfu]

Ice traps aren't going to slow down people in your group....

Someone else already cleared it up, but I thought it was worth mentioning again.

Of course it does not slow your fellow raiders down but the huge white ice patch it creates has the unfortunate side effect of covering just about everything else and making it very hard on your melee and tanks to see bad stuff (or good stuff they should be in).