1. #1

    I have this problem with my dps.........

    Hello fellow priests.


    Let me start off by saying...I'm sensitive and I need you guys to be nice to me lol.

    And that I need you guys to rip apart my priest and tell me just what I'm doing wrong. It's been made clear to me that for my item level my dps is abysmally low. Until now I just haven't had the time to get in here and work it out with people much better than myself but i'm here now.

    Some details:

    My armory: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...chtland/simple

    I know that I might be missing some enchants...maybe. Someone said something about my enchants not being the highest level and I admit I wasn't entirely sure what they meant.

    I am haste capped at a little more than I need. My armory character sheet is lying. I'm 25.14%(8150) okay so maybe the precentages are lying.

    In any event the other issue is that i'm my guilds raid leader and as much as I try when they're doing particularly bad with mechanics...my dps drops. I know you'll say something along the lines of "if you were a good player you could raid lead do good dmg both" but I'm going to chalk THAT up to my raiders just need to get their ass in gear and not make me babysit them as much because when I dont...my dps jumps 17-ish k. It's sad...I know 17k dps loss. Please don't make fun of me haha.

    I will link my most recent parses in a moment but there are huge dps discrepancies. Sometimes i'll be up and around where my lock is and sometimes not...the times I'm not is usually when I'm yelling in vent for someone to MOVE the hell out of something a lot. To be honest I'm not really sure where I'm supposed to be.

    I've listened to Koilie's guide on youtube and picked up some valuable information I didn't know of about some talents and how they can be used situationally that I will employ this weekend and see how it works.

    I feel my biggest issue comes from managing FDCL procs. In theory I was doing everything Koilie said I should do(except I don't have a good range addon for halo :/ suggestions?) so I know how to do it in theory but my execution just blows right now...is this just practice or am I missing something very important?

    My parses:

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/guilds/65843/

    ^ we ARE up to Will and Elegon but those parses didn't make it up, sorry. I will likely repost for help after this weekend when I have a better set of parses to impart to you guys.

    Help!

    Thank you in advance.

  2. #2
    Just can FDCL sure if perfectly executed it is a LITLE dps increase over Mindbender, but it sucks to manage the procs and if you not carefull it can screw up your dot uptime and your Mindblast usage, wich seems to be your problem. + I´m not sure if gemming only haste is the best way to go for your dmg, I in your position would keep gemming int till you get Light of the Cosmos and you can reach the haste cap witouht sacrificing too much Int.

  3. #3
    I sacrificed about 180 int to put those haste gems in. I only actually replaced two and was lead to believe the PP for having haste capped would be more worthwhile in the long run. Is this not the case? Is 180 int worth more than my second tick of VT? I don't pretend to understand the whole pseudo power thing.

    Edit: Additionally, i've been waiting for Light of Cosmos for several weeks now and am not lucky enough to even have the LFR version drop.

    Edit two! I also have every intention of gemming pure int when I'm passively haste capped.

  4. #4
    If you would replace every gem with a red or mixed gem ( for the socket bonus ) you would gain about 800 int I don´t think that the haste breakpoint can make up for this. And a good update for Halo is Halopro .

  5. #5
    Yah I didn't have all int gems in. I mean it's not a lot of gold to replace them back and forth. As for Halopro I tried it about...Ooo a week after launch and found the visual guide to be terribly off. Has this been fixed?

  6. #6
    Yes it has been fixed a while back and is realy accurate now. I just checked your Feng log because it is basically a patchwerk fight, and for some reason your amount of Mindblast cast is realy low. I literally had the same amount in our last kill with half the fight length Mindblast is always your top priority aside from Dp and should always be cast on cooldown.
    Last edited by Squawl; 2012-11-22 at 08:33 PM.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Squawl View Post
    Yes it has been fixed a while back and is realy accurate now. I just checked your Feng log because it is basically a patchwerk fight, and for some reason your amount of Mindblast cast is realy low. I literally had the same amount in our last kill with half the fight length Mindblast is always your top priority aside from Dp and should always be cast on cooldown.
    My tanks are TERRIBLE at interrupting epicenter. Could that be why? Because I have weak aura's set to flash at me when it's off CD. I always cast it off CD.

  8. #8
    Sure that would lower the amount of Mindblasts but not to this extend, due to epicenter just being in the first phase, the fight lasted 7:58 with a 8sec cd on Mindblast and about 1,2secs cast time that should be around 51 Mindblasts ( excluded procs from Divine insight) you had 31 in the log

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Squawl View Post
    Sure that would lower the amount of Mindblasts but not to this extend, due to epicenter just being in the first phase, the fight lasted 7:58 with a 8sec cd on Mindblast and about 1,2secs cast time that should be around 51 Mindblasts ( excluded procs from Divine insight) you had 31 in the log

    Mmmk clearly i'm not casting it as much as I think I am. I will work on this.

  10. #10
    Make sure your Weakauras is telling you to cast it not only on Divine Insight procs but also when its just off cooldown normally, or vice versa. I use the built in auras to show DI procs but some people dont. Using proccs is definitely higher priority esp if you play FDCL, which I still think is better than mindbender for shadow.

  11. #11
    Two things I noticed mainly, just looking at your logs :

    Your DoTs uptime aren't especially low, but you could do better. Feng is a single target fight, so you'd have no reason to not have at least 99% uptime. You have SW: Pain at 94% and VT at 90%. Like I said, it isn't especially low, but you should never lets your DoTs fall. Not only do you lose damage, but you lose procs opportunity.

    Second thing, and the major one : Mind Blast casts. Like someone wrote up there, you should have casted 51 Mind Blasts approx. (let's say 50 to round up), WITHOUT DI procs. And you had 17 of them. So this is about 67 possible Mind Blast casts, which makes a huge part of your damage, plus DP. I think this is where all your DPS loss is coming from, casting 31 MBs from 67 possibles, a little bit under 50% of what you should have cast. If you work on that, you should definitely see a big improvement in overall DPS .


    Oh, and about the haste breakpoints. Reforging to haste is nice and all, because it is better (not by a big margin, but still better) than mastery or crit. But.. don't gem for straight haste at all, unless you sacrifice less than approx. 250 intel to get to the haste cap (this number isn't the same for everyone, but this is a general rule of thumb). People go crazy about the haste plateau, but you need to understand that intellect is by far your biggest stat dps wise. I'll explain to you how the extra tick for your dots work:

    (Numbers aren't real, this is just for ease of comprehension). Let's say that at 0 haste (naked for exemple), VT has 17 sec duration. Now, you'll notice, by looking at your VT tooltip, that by adding haste, it says that your VT duration goes down, which is right. The more haste you get, VT duration will go down. Hey, but didn't they change in Cata so that it stays the same duration ?. Yes. Because when the duration reach the 14 sec(approx, since VT ticks at every 3 sec), it will stop to go down, go back to his full duration, but then you'll have an extra tick for those 17 seconds. Now, this is more complex than that, but the numbers aren't calculated this way, but just so you understand, haste ALWAYS makes your dots tick longer, but each haste breakpoints basically gives you more GCDs to spend on something else.

    So is it worth it to go to the haste breakpoints ? Yes, of course, reforge everything to haste, go with the hybrid gems (intel + haste) if you get nice socket bonuses on top of it, but unless you're so close to the cap that you'd sacrifice less than 250 intel, don't go for it. It isn't worth it.

  12. #12
    The Patient sasslefrassed's Avatar
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    The haste percentage on your armory is without shadowform, in game you are probably looking at your haste with the 5% increase. You're over 8085 so you're fine.
    Honestly, FDCL may be better on a lot of fights, but not if you aren't utilizing it to the best it can be. If FDCL procs are too much to pay attention to and are causing your dps to dip, switch to mindbender. Mindbender pulls ahead both on single target and on fights with more than 5-6 adds (then the FDCL procs become overwhelming and go to waste when you are busy re-applying dots).
    The lowest maintenance combination would be Mindbender/ToF.


    signature by Shyama.

  13. #13
    I know I asked for help but you guys are choosing Feng. Something you all need to realize is we spent nearly three FULL minutes in phase one. Like one of our attempts...I popped shadow fiend upon ENTERING phase two. This is going to screw around with my uptime on dots especially. It's something I will work on. As for haste...this is something I've agonized over for a couple hours because I reviewed Koilie's L2Ptv guide. He speaks specifically about the importance of 8085 haste and what that means for pseudo power in terms of gemming for haste. The value ofhaste prior to 8085(and this is my understanding) is so good prior to haste cap that it makes it worth MORE than int until cap where the PP of haste falls by 2/3rd's what it was worth previously.

    So unless i'm still not understanding what Koilie meant about Pseudo power regarding haste and someone can come in and break that explanation down i'm going to keep my haste gems until I get light of the cosmos. Because here's the kicker. My dummy dmg with full int gems...was 3k less over 6 minutes. That's using FDCL with divine insight and halo. Multidotting and maintaining those dots with my off focus macro.

    In fact Koilie's example went like this: I had to edit this in.

    int=1 so on an int gem it's worth 160 points. But because pure gems have DOUBLE the amount on them it works like this

    (in his example he used spirit but it works for haste as well) spirit= 0.06320x.6= 192 of Psuedo intellect. UNTIL HASTE cap.

    So in this instance I don't think the gemming is hurting me as badly as you guys seem to think it is and my tests on dummy certainly aren't showing me an issue. My dummy dps without execute is 66k and change with the haste gems and 63k with pure int gems over 6 minutes.
    Last edited by Achtland; 2012-11-23 at 06:11 AM.

  14. #14
    I feel your pain. To me, Spriests feel weak currently, and I have a boomkin and ele shaman at 90 doing just fine.

    The only thing I can say, is spriests are strong with multi-dot fights, they stay consitant (dont rely on bursts like most other ranged[cough ele, boomkin, hunter]) AND you help out with the healing. With a well placed Halo, and vampiric embrace at key turning points (i prefer it glyphed), you really can save a fight.

    The ranged indicator I use i called RangeDisplay. It puts a rough range in a box that i keep small on my UI.

    Sit on a target dummy when you arnt doing anything, and talk to people on voice comms. Eventually you do your rotation without realising, allowing you to yell as much as you like at the raid without dropping your own DPS
    I like warm hugs.

  15. #15
    Along with the DoT uptime other people are mentioning, You're also wasting a lot of gcd's casting your DoTs by doing so immensely early.
    Based on the uptime you had you should not have been casting it nearly that often.

    SWP has an 18 second duration, your average time between casts was 11 seconds. This one will generally have a bit of room to move as you can spam it during movement, but not that much.
    VT has a 15 second duration, your average time between casts was 11.4 seconds, Also being refreshed considerably early.
    For optimal usage you want to have your refresh cast end between the last two ticks (or immediately following, although this takes a fair amount of skill)

    You should have gotten approximately 11 less VT casts (that's just over 5 complete mindflays), With an average of 23.3k per tick for a mindflay, that puts you down almost 350k damage.
    That's 1.4% of your overall damage, just from getting more accurate on one of your DoT's, SWP would do about the same increase as well.

    My last run for example, I had 14.17 between VT's and 17.84 between SW:P casts. And honestly, it was a fairly sloppy run.


    Gonna stress the gearing issue as well, gemming straight haste when you can't reach it without sacrificing a less than 250 int won't do much for you. (I've been experimenting a bit with my own gear in this and it does make a difference).
    Couple curious enchant choices as well. You're using Pandaren Step on your boots, but the Haste enchant is worth considerably more at this point at least until you can reach the haste cap without sacrificing Int. The movement speed bonus can easily be replaced by taking the Mind Flay Glyph (gives you a speed boost instead of slowing the enemy down) or by learning to use PW:S with Body and Soul during movement phases. (It does appear from the logs you may already be doing this, You've got 11 full absorbs yourself, just not sure if you're using the movement speed bonus from it or if you're just doing it for the healing during epicenters or something.

    I'd recommend staying away from the Mithril Wristwatch, (the 470 ilvl is deceiving) Both of the 463 heroic dungeon drops for casters are better, I'd recommend using the Vision of the Predator personally, As I think you've got enough rotation stuff you need to worry about currently as is, without having to time on-use cd's as well even though the Flashfrozen Resin Globule technically is the best out of the two.

    Related to your profession, this isn't really a dps thing, but you're using the crafted leg enchants instead of the tailoring profession ones. Rather a waste of money on your part, the bonus for dps is the same. Tailors and Leatherworkers are able to make thier own leg enchants with the same stats for the cost of only 3 Eternium Thread. It's under Embroidery in your profession book.

    As far as Talent choices go, I notice you're using DI and FDCL together on all your fights. Generally this will be a dps loss. You'll likely only see a dps gain when you're moving almost constantly and don't have a chance to cast. Personally I use it as my garalon kiting build, I did run it last week mostly because I was too lazy to go buy more tomes to swap it out. However my logs showed a noticeable drop on dps for the fights where I would've run another set of talents. As sasslefrassed mentioned Mindbender pulls ahead on single target fights.

    Here's the list of talents I use for the following fights.

    Stoneguard

    Normal
    Mindbender, Divine Insight, Halo
    Heroic
    FDCL, DI, Halo (this is due to the large amount of movement when having to lay down tiles, if you have a group that can get 70+ stacks on 10man or 150+ stacks on 25man in a very short amount of time, this may be unnecessary)

    Feng

    Mindbender, Divine Insight, Halo (I have found Divine Star to push some interesting results when combined with the windsong enchant, enabling almost double uptime in a 25-man, The dps increase from this is considerably small however vs halo)

    Garajal

    Mindbender, ToF, Cascade

    Spirit Kings

    MindBender, DI, Halo

    Elegon

    FDCL, ToF, Halo

    Will

    FDCL, ToF, Halo (Run cascade if you find yourself with consistently 6+ adds up at a time, Likely wont see this in a 10-man)

    Quote Originally Posted by Achtland View Post
    I know I asked for help but you guys are choosing Feng. Something you all need to realize is we spent nearly three FULL minutes in phase one. Like one of our attempts...I popped shadow fiend upon ENTERING phase two. This is going to screw around with my uptime on dots especially. It's something I will work on. As for haste...this is something I've agonized over for a couple hours because I reviewed Koilie's L2Ptv guide. He speaks specifically about the importance of 8085 haste and what that means for pseudo power in terms of gemming for haste. The value ofhaste prior to 8085(and this is my understanding) is so good prior to haste cap that it makes it worth MORE than int until cap where the PP of haste falls by 2/3rd's what it was worth previously.

    So unless i'm still not understanding what Koilie meant about Pseudo power regarding haste and someone can come in and break that explanation down i'm going to keep my haste gems until I get light of the cosmos. Because here's the kicker. My dummy dmg with full int gems...was 3k less over 6 minutes. That's using FDCL with divine insight and halo. Multidotting and maintaining those dots with my off focus macro.

    In fact Koilie's example went like this: I had to edit this in.

    int=1 so on an int gem it's worth 160 points. But because pure gems have DOUBLE the amount on them it works like this

    (in his example he used spirit but it works for haste as well) spirit= 0.06320x.6= 192 of Psuedo intellect. UNTIL HASTE cap.

    So in this instance I don't think the gemming is hurting me as badly as you guys seem to think it is and my tests on dummy certainly aren't showing me an issue. My dummy dps without execute is 66k and change with the haste gems and 63k with pure int gems over 6 minutes.
    Gonna try and clarify this a bit. That value on haste is not a static amount, it changes. The more int you have the more 1% of haste or 1% of crit is worth as far as dps goes. That number is found by running simulations on gear as close as you can get to haste cap, without actually getting it.

    The number itself climbs in a curve. Normally it sits around 1.2-1.4ish, but when you come close to a haste cap (or in this case 2, it jumps up a good amount). I ran a simluation on your current gear, If you gem for completely intellect as much as you possibly can, it puts your haste at approximately 19.60% (5910) at this point, haste is worth 1.51, while int is worth 3.33. Even if you double the amount you get, the Intellect is still worth more. These numbers don't cross until you reach about 7800 haste.

    I ran the same test on your gear but added 2000 haste to it, to push you to 7910 haste, well within reach of it, At that point, your haste is worth 2.35 and intellect is 3.49 That's how long it takes for it to be worth it.

    Also you are doing your target dummy test on 3 targets by the sound of it, which is biased. When running multiple targets your haste affects the dot's on all of them, meaning it scales faster, there's a good chance haste may match int for gemming much earlier, perhaps even below 7000 when doing this. Do your test again with only one target and see what you can do. (btw, using the FDCL, DI and Halo your gear is capable of approximately 54.8k dps over 6 minutes)
    Last edited by Nestar; 2012-11-23 at 10:15 AM.

  16. #16
    You also should understand, that the "haste cap" you're going for is not a cap.

    The hit cap is a cap, because if you go over, hit becomes worthless. Having 50% hit will give you the same dps as having 15% hit does. You gain nothing from having more than the cap requires.

    Haste does not behave this way. As has already been explained, haste does not just increase the damage of your dots around the breakpoint, but every point of haste increases your dps above and below the breakpoint.
    "I never met a miner who complained about the weather"

  17. #17
    Allow me to clarify some points that were mentioned by you


    Couple curious enchant choices as well. You're using Pandaren Step on your boots, but the Haste enchant is worth considerably more at this point at least until you can reach the haste cap without sacrificing Int. The movement speed bonus can easily be replaced by taking the Mind Flay Glyph (gives you a speed boost instead of slowing the enemy down) or by learning to use PW:S with Body and Soul during movement phases.
    I just recently put panderan step on my boots when a guildie was like OH LETS RUN YOU THROUGH dr.ROBOT! I found this reforge tool to be utterly retarded and did NOT have a bloody clue what it was talking about. But given that gold wasn't an issue I went through the motions and tried it since this guildie is usually fairly certain HE has a clue even if I know he doesn't. You're right in your assumption that I use Body and Soul to move. I HAD haste on those boots and will be putting it back on lol I should mention dr. robot also reforged me under hit cap and then yelled at me for it ><


    I'd recommend staying away from the Mithril Wristwatch, (the 470 ilvl is deceiving) Both of the 463 heroic dungeon drops for casters are better, I'd recommend using the Vision of the Predator personally
    I know. I can't force gear to drop lol

    As far as Talent choices go, I notice you're using DI and FDCL together on all your fights. Generally this will be a dps loss. You'll likely only see a dps gain when you're moving almost constantly and don't have a chance to cast. Personally I use it as my garalon kiting build, I did run it last week mostly because I was too lazy to go buy more tomes to swap it out. However my logs showed a noticeable drop on dps for the fights where I would've run another set of talents. As sasslefrassed mentioned Mindbender pulls ahead on single target fights.
    Learned this recently from Vodka's shadow priest. He's quite brilliant actually.

    Related to your profession, this isn't really a dps thing, but you're using the crafted leg enchants instead of the tailoring profession ones. Rather a waste of money on your part, the bonus for dps is the same. Tailors and Leatherworkers are able to make thier own leg enchants with the same stats for the cost of only 3 Eternium Thread. It's under Embroidery in your profession book.
    I know. I also know you couldn't possibly know that the only reason I used it was cuz I had made it for a guildie who didn't end up taking it. I didn't post it. Instead I held onto it and when I got my pants I was just to damn lazy to get thread and used that instead because I'm not hurting that much for gold ^^


    As far as Talent choices go, I notice you're using DI and FDCL together on all your fights. Generally this will be a dps loss. You'll likely only see a dps gain when you're moving almost constantly and don't have a chance to cast. Personally I use it as my garalon kiting build, I did run it last week mostly because I was too lazy to go buy more tomes to swap it out. However my logs showed a noticeable drop on dps for the fights where I would've run another set of talents. As sasslefrassed mentioned Mindbender pulls ahead on single target fights.

    Here's the list of talents I use for the following fights.

    Stoneguard

    Normal
    Mindbender, Divine Insight, Halo
    Heroic
    FDCL, DI, Halo (this is due to the large amount of movement when having to lay down tiles, if you have a group that can get 70+ stacks on 10man or 150+ stacks on 25man in a very short amount of time, this may be unnecessary)

    Feng

    Mindbender, Divine Insight, Halo (I have found Divine Star to push some interesting results when combined with the windsong enchant, enabling almost double uptime in a 25-man, The dps increase from this is considerably small however vs halo)

    Garajal

    Mindbender, ToF, Cascade

    Spirit Kings

    MindBender, DI, Halo

    Elegon

    FDCL, ToF, Halo

    Will

    FDCL, ToF, Halo (Run cascade if you find yourself with consistently 6+ adds up at a time, Likely wont see this in a 10-man)
    I like this. Period. I will try this. I was looking for something like this when I originally posted.

    Haste does not behave this way. As has already been explained, haste does not just increase the damage of your dots around the breakpoint, but every point of haste increases your dps above and below the breakpoint.
    Haste does indeed behave differently. However the second threshold for haste cap is still under debate as to whether we'll be able to reach it passively or not without a trinket proc. And unless I can reach the second threshold it is, in effect a cap, if a temporary one. This doesn't negate that 192 pseudo power of intellect is a greater number than 160. I think the spec changes and suggestions will be more beneficial.

    As for 54.8k over 6 minutes...that's just simply not true. With multi dotting, which is what I'd be doing on any fight without mindbender is 66k That is what I pulled. I don't know about single target since as you pointed out I didn't test that.

  18. #18
    Yes, that 54.8k I mentioned is single target. Multi target (dots on 3) your gear is capable of 79.9k with a flawless rotation. (no buffs aside from shadowform). With your haste build, vs a 78.5 with an int stacking build. (as I mentioned earlier haste is worth more when using multiple targets) not many fights currently which allow you to run full dots non-stop on 3 targets.

    As for askmrrobot, there tends to be a few small things which it will choose incorrectly, it does put a bonus on the movement speed enchant which is why it is selected. You can lock in selected results manually, such as if you don't want to buy the fairly expensive Int to bracers enchant yet.

    As for hitcap, the reason they posted that is to try and clarify some misconceptions about hit at very small chances. The amount of dps you will gain from going from 0.15% miss chance to being 0.4% past cap is worse than the equivilant crit/haste/mastery you would gain by not doing so. Hence you want as close as possible without going over, usually within 0.5% is sufficient.
    Last edited by Nestar; 2012-11-24 at 12:19 AM.

  19. #19
    To be totally honest, what your first priority should be to make sure you cast Mind Blast on CD, above everything else. All the other things mentionned are 100s dps potential in gains, which will make a difference when combined, but considering your Mind Blast casts were abysmal (refer to previous post), I'd make sure to master this before anything else. We're speaking of couple thousands of DPS that you could gain by changing that one thing.

    If you need to be convinced, look at this :

    This is your WoL for Feng : http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/m...?s=5884&e=6363.
    This is my last WoL for Feng : http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=1391&e=1828

    Just look at the damage breakdown. My first 2 sources of damage are DP and MB. But yours aren't. Just look at the gear difference between you and me. (My armory : http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...efusion/simple). This is just to show you how big a difference those MB casts can make. (I've not been perfect either on Feng to be honest. I actually felt like I could have performed much better. But this isn't the point).

    Imo, work on those MBs, and your dps will improve A LOT
    Last edited by Damaros; 2012-11-24 at 09:45 AM. Reason: adding stuff

  20. #20
    Might just be your spell priority needs a bit of work.

    - don't be afraid to clip Mindflay, it won't ever be a dps loss. If you get Quartz you can see ticks on the cast bar. Overtime you can learn to clip MF just after a tick.
    - FDCL procs are low priority (that's why it stacks to 2). If you've done everything else then use the proc instead of MF.
    - MB on cooldown. DI has highest priority followed by MB.
    - don't fret about Halo too much and certainly don't try to move into position if your not on a GCD just to cast it.

    With your gear i'd expect around 60k ish on Feng. People are focusing on Feng cus that's only kill really in your log as stoneguards has multidotting.

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