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  1. #181
    If it was a male with false allegations I have no doubt he'd be pursued to the full extent.

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    You're just repeating the old bullshit line that false accusations occur left and right. They don't and when they do occur they're blown way out of proportion and treated like they're the norm. With respect to false accusations and the effect they have on reporting rates the blame lies with people who act like false accusations are common.
    Why would someone even claim that false accusations occur left and right? I don't know anyone worth listening to even in MRA communities who's made such a claim. Usually the topic of false allegations only comes up in topics regarding reduced standards for rape convictions (such as preponderance of evidence standards that many "feminists" have been striving for, and succeeding in some jurisdictions).

    Perjury is a crime all its own. You can't simply avoid prosecution of it because you're afraid of harming another statistic.

  3. #183
    Pandaren Monk Auloria's Avatar
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    From my experience volunteering in support groups (and also online anonymous groups fwiw):

    For victims who are thinking about reporting the crime, I have absolutely heard the question: "Can I get in trouble if I can't prove he's guilty?"

    When they do try to press charges, victims almost always want to quit, especially if it's a friend or family. The legal process is AWFUL. The police interrogate you like you are a suspect. A lot of people give up on pressing charges. I gave up on pressing charges. It's not hard for me to imagine that someone could be in a situation where they want to give up but the police want to keep going, so they decide to recant. Rape victims are NOT rational people.

    If recanting is a crime, most victims will say that doesn't apply to them and wouldn't think about it. But I can imagine you can get some victims who start the legal process and say "no, I give up", and if the police try to bully them with criminal charges, there could be a huge lashback when they report back to the community. So, it could depend on how it plays out.

    On the other hand, I think a massive factor in victims avoiding reporting is that people won't believe them. That is caused primarily by people who make false accusations (and rapists take advantage of this!). You could argue that prosecuting false accusers may actually do more to help increase reporting of real rapes, over time, than not prosecuting.
    Last edited by Auloria; 2012-11-23 at 08:20 AM. Reason: typo

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by Bergtau View Post
    I believe you just argued against yourself at the same time as attempting to argue for yourself.
    No... I believe you're not getting my point.

    People who commit false allegations should be punished because they harm the credibility of real victims.

  5. #185
    Legendary! darenyon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bergtau View Post
    I haven't been shown any evidence that people don't report that they were raped based on a fear of being convicted of false accusal. I have, however, seen evidence that shows that people don't report it because they don't think anything will come of it.
    yeah because people dont get raped if they're convicted of false accusation right now.

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Mad Jim View Post
    And how exactly did he go to jail in the 1st place if there was no physical evidence ?! The judge convicted him just cause a little girl said so ?!
    The jury did. As for how it even made it to trial, I have no idea. Once it got to trial, I know exactly what happened. The jurors, like many jurors do, assumed he was guilty because he was on trial. They believed the testimony of a little girl because 'why would she lie?' and because rape is such an emotional topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by darenyon View Post
    yeah because people dont get raped if they're convicted of false accusation right now.
    I don't think the punishment is particularly relevant to the people who were raped, I think what is going through their minds is an utter hatred and a profound feeling of helplessness that they don't want to expose to others when they don't think anything will come from it.
    Last edited by Bergtau; 2012-11-23 at 08:09 AM.

    Bergtau's Law: As an online discussion grows longer, the probability that somebody will mention Godwin's Law approaches 1.
    Hitler wasn't all bad, I mean, he DID kill Hitler.
    An accident is something that you did not mean to do at all. A mistake is something that you regret doing.

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by Bergtau View Post
    I don't think it would do much at all.
    Take a rape victim. Probably panicking right? All kinds of image issues, confidence gone, self worth non existent etc etc.

    Now tell them that if they give a false report they'll be raped. You don't see how they might be worried that if nothing comes of their report they'll be raped?

    If I was told that falsely reporting a theft would result in all my things being taken you can sure as shit bet I won't ever report theft.
    You've not being paying close attention, then.
    False accusation rates are around 3%. That's not "so, so many times". The only reason these stories could even effect reporting rates is because the mens rights crowd act like they're common. The problem in this regard isn't the false reports, its the people who act like they're common.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-23 at 08:08 AM ----------

    I believe you just argued against yourself at the same time as attempting to argue for yourself.
    I enjoyed it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    False accusation rates are around 3%. That's not "so, so many times". The only reason these stories could even effect reporting rates is because the mens rights crowd act like they're common. The problem in this regard isn't the false reports, its the people who act like they're common.
    3%? Wow; that's high!
    And that's NOT so, so many times? That's three out of every one-hundred allegations! How is that not a lot?
    As for the men's rights groups: Nopes; it's not that. These stories feature so much because they make juicy drama. This is news that sells. It's tabloid news. That's why.

  9. #189
    Absolute numbers are pointless here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Take a rape victim. Probably panicking right? All kinds of image issues, confidence gone, self worth non existent etc etc.

    Now tell them that if they give a false report they'll be raped. You don't see how they might be worried that if nothing comes of their report they'll be raped?
    No, because nothing coming of a rape report doesn't mean that they will be convicted of a false report.

    False accusation rates are around 3%. That's not "so, so many times". The only reason these stories could even effect reporting rates is because the mens rights crowd act like they're common. The problem in this regard isn't the false reports, its the people who act like they're common.
    So let me get this straight, you think that false accusations are extremely low but think that reports of rape would suffer significantly by punishing an even smaller group within that 3%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Absolute numbers are pointless here.
    They actually are pretty significant. With the way information travels, things that are uncommon can seem a lot more common simply because you can view samplings from all over due to wide spread media coverage.

    Bergtau's Law: As an online discussion grows longer, the probability that somebody will mention Godwin's Law approaches 1.
    Hitler wasn't all bad, I mean, he DID kill Hitler.
    An accident is something that you did not mean to do at all. A mistake is something that you regret doing.

  11. #191
    Legendary! darenyon's Avatar
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    I don't think the punishment is particularly relevant to the people who were raped, I think what is going through their minds is an utter hatred and a profound feeling of helplessness that they don't want to expose to others when they don't think anything will come from it.
    and you think the possibility of it happening again wouldnt have any untoward effect? how strange.

  12. #192
    Legendary! Pendra's Avatar
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    Would be quite ironic if she'd really get raped now, and nobody would believe her anymore.

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by darenyon View Post
    and you think the possibility of it happening again wouldnt have any untoward effect? how strange.
    I don't think that they would even consider the possibility of their being falsely convicted of false accusation.

    That isn't to say that I think that false accusers should be raped. There are like 8,000 reasons not to do that.

    Bergtau's Law: As an online discussion grows longer, the probability that somebody will mention Godwin's Law approaches 1.
    Hitler wasn't all bad, I mean, he DID kill Hitler.
    An accident is something that you did not mean to do at all. A mistake is something that you regret doing.

  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Absolute numbers are pointless here.
    So... That's the argument? Really?
    Look; your mention of 'enjoyment' of my 'failure' to argue for myself (which was not a failure at all, mind, unless you somehow didn't read it) was insulting. But this is just weak.

  15. #195
    No, because nothing coming of a rape report doesn't mean that they will be convicted of a false report.
    yeah....not sure why you think a rape victim is so rationally thinking things through.
    So let me get this straight, you think that false accusations are extremely low but think that reports of rape would suffer significantly by punishing an even smaller group within that 3%?
    Raping people for giving false reports is pretty high profile. Have that happen to a couple people and suddenly every woman who would report a rape is worried she's putting herself at risk for being raped.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  16. #196
    Pandaren Monk Auloria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bergtau View Post
    I don't think the punishment is particularly relevant to the people who were raped, I think what is going through their minds is an utter hatred and a profound feeling of helplessness that they don't want to expose to others when they don't think anything will come from it.
    The fear of not being believed is also extremely common. From that you can make the hypothesis that victims would be afraid of not being believed, and then thrown in jail, for making a report, out of a misunderstanding of the law.

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by Bergtau View Post
    I don't think that they would even consider the possibility of their being falsely convicted of false accusation.
    Really? You don't think the possibility of being raped is going to cross the mind of a rape victim?

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-23 at 08:16 AM ----------

    I mean this is a think that already happens. Rape goes widely unreported in large part because women are afraid they won't be believed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    yeah....not sure why you think a rape victim is so rationally thinking things through.

    Raping people for giving false reports is pretty high profile. Have that happen to a couple people and suddenly every woman who would report a rape is worried she's putting herself at risk for being raped.
    I still have not seen evidence of rape victims being concerned with being legally punished for reporting it. At least, not in places like the US.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Really? You don't think the possibility of being raped is going to cross the mind of a rape victim?
    I don't think they would consider it as a possibility. Kinda like with people who don't think they will be caught, only the victim feels they have right on their side.

    I mean this is a think that already happens. Rape goes widely unreported in large part because women are afraid they won't be believed.
    Yeah, they worry about not being believed, not being punished. As in, they worry about pointlessly embarrassing themselves.

    Bergtau's Law: As an online discussion grows longer, the probability that somebody will mention Godwin's Law approaches 1.
    Hitler wasn't all bad, I mean, he DID kill Hitler.
    An accident is something that you did not mean to do at all. A mistake is something that you regret doing.

  19. #199
    I wonder how guilty she feels, and how long it has played on her mind - I imagine that would leave you really fucked up - she will need therapy

  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by Bergtau View Post

    I still have not seen evidence of rape victims being concerned with being legally punished for reporting it. At least, not in places like the US.
    Should do some reading on why rape is so under reported. The AMA actually did a study on it that I can dig up later.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

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