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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Which is also a thing in my admittedly anecdotal experience. Women fear that if they can't prove their claims they'll get in trouble.
    I don't believe that things like this specifically are a significant factor.

    I'll agree that I don't think that we should hold her responsible for something she did when she was 11, but I disagree that she should be let off the hook given that she had 5 years of time above the age of 18 to come clean.

    I think that the biggest people to blame here though are the people who actually tried this case without a shred of evidence.

    Bergtau's Law: As an online discussion grows longer, the probability that somebody will mention Godwin's Law approaches 1.
    Hitler wasn't all bad, I mean, he DID kill Hitler.
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  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Goretusker View Post
    The thing I'm confused about: How did they convict a man on an 11 year old's say so with no evidence whatsoever?
    THIS! ... maybe because evidence is in the eye of the beholder, in this case the judge/jury?!

  3. #43
    The Lightbringer DEATHETERNAL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    I wonder if you've ever posted this in a thread about crime that wasn't about rape.
    I have. Reading post history is hard.
    And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him.
    Revelation 6:8

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    I'm asking you a question. Do you think false allegations of rape are different from other false allegations (Such as those for murder, robbery, arson etc) and, as such, we shouldn't punish the people who did it for fear of others coming forward?
    I think the seriousness of a false allegation does correlate to the seriousness of the crime. Other than that if you have a point please get to it. Let's also keep in mind that 9 years is outside the statute of limitations on rape in Oregon so I think that's something to keep in mind as well.

    As this discussion goes forward I can let people know I'm just going to flat ignore anyone who says anything along the lines of "death is too good of a punishment".

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-23 at 06:32 AM ----------

    @Bergtau, absolutely. Given the information available this should not have happened.
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  5. #45
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    Whoa whoa whoa so some people are actually saying this girl should not be punished for fucking ruining an innocent man's life for 9 years?

    And I know that bullshit like child rape stays on your record EVEN IF YOU ARE DETERMINED INNOCENT so its unlikely he will ever get a real job again.

    And doing something about it would not stop real rape victims from coming forward.

    But worst of all, how the fuck does a man get convicted of CHILD RAPE on absolutely no evidence whatsoever other than the little girl saying so. Are you fucking serious? You locked away a man for the better part of his life because some kid said so?

    That is why the justice system is a joke. Its less a justice system as a death sentence that can be invoked by 3 words. Innocent until someone says otherwise. Sounds like a great idea!
    Last edited by This name sucks; 2012-11-23 at 06:37 AM.

  6. #46
    Pandaren Monk Auloria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DEATHETERNAL View Post
    This is why rape convictions should require incontrovertible physical evidence or overwhelming multiple eye witness testimony for a conviction. The word of one person alone (or two people when the second is clearly capable of having an ulterior motive) should never be enough for a conviction alone.
    Rapists don't exactly go around raping people in full view of the public. There is no such thing as 100% justice, the best we can do is beyond reasonable doubt. You go too far extreme and in one direction too many innocents are convicted and in the other too many innocents never see justice.

  7. #47
    The Lightbringer Seezer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    I think the seriousness of a false allegation does correlate to the seriousness of the crime. Other than that if you have a point please get to it. Let's also keep in mind that 9 years is outside the statute of limitations on rape in Oregon so I think that's something to keep in mind as well.

    As this discussion goes forward I can let people know I'm just going to flat ignore anyone who says anything along the lines of "death is too good of a punishment".

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-23 at 06:32 AM ----------

    @Bergtau, absolutely. Given the information available this should not have happened.
    What does 9 years being outside the statute of limitations have anything to do with this? She isn't coming out after 9 years and saying she raped somebody.
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  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Auloria View Post
    Rapists don't exactly go around raping people in full view of the public. There is no such thing as 100% justice, the best we can do is beyond reasonable doubt. You go too far extreme and in one direction too many innocents are convicted and in the other too many innocents never see justice.
    How do you ever go beyond reasonable doubt based on the testimony of a single individual?

    Bergtau's Law: As an online discussion grows longer, the probability that somebody will mention Godwin's Law approaches 1.
    Hitler wasn't all bad, I mean, he DID kill Hitler.
    An accident is something that you did not mean to do at all. A mistake is something that you regret doing.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Seezer View Post
    What does 9 years being outside the statute of limitations have anything to do with this?
    We're discussing the length of time it has been since the incident. I think pointing out that we've exceeded the statute of limitations for the crime he was exonerated of is relevant for some perspective.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    I think the seriousness of a false allegation does correlate to the seriousness of the crime. Other than that if you have a point please get to it. Let's also keep in mind that 9 years is outside the statute of limitations on rape in Oregon so I think that's something to keep in mind as well.

    As this discussion goes forward I can let people know I'm just going to flat ignore anyone who says anything along the lines of "death is too good of a punishment".

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-23 at 06:32 AM ----------

    @Bergtau, absolutely. Given the information available this should not have happened.
    Do you think the reticence to punish false rape accusers because of an unfounded fear of harming the reporting rate is valid even if it means the true victim in the case never sees justice?

    Put it in a more utilitarian example. Do you think it's acceptable for someone who makes false accusations to not be punished because of such an unfounded fear and leave them free to do the same to someone else? Maybe in a different jurisdiction where they haven't made the news?

  11. #51
    Did this occur to anyone? This event happened 9 years ago. the daughter was 13 at the time. Over the years, when she was growing up the memory of the event went fuzzy, as things do when growing up, and the daughter was pressured from outside sources to mess up her recollection of events. Thus, she recanted her previous statement made 9 years ago. When the rape victim herself saying, there was no rape, the law can not accept the man as guilty. Real life is just as convulated as this theory.

  12. #52
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    And this 9 year old girl is not the only person to straight up lie about being raped 10 years after the guy has been sitting in jail. And shes also not the only person to have literally nothing done about it.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auloria View Post
    Rapists don't exactly go around raping people in full view of the public. There is no such thing as 100% justice, the best we can do is beyond reasonable doubt. You go too far extreme and in one direction too many innocents are convicted and in the other too many innocents never see justice.
    And then you have possible physical evidence removing the need for eye witnesses if none are available.
    And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him.
    Revelation 6:8

  14. #54
    I think reluctance to damage the willingness of rape victims to come forward is always something that warrants some consideration. Given that combined with the age when she accused her father plus the time since I can see a valid argument for not prosecuting her.
    Put it in a more utilitarian example. Do you think it's acceptable for someone who makes false accusations to not be punished because of such an unfounded fear and leave them free to do the same to someone else?
    If we're looking at this from a utilitarian aspect there's not much to be gained from prosecuting her unless we think she's going to start accusing more people of rape. Whether rape victims' fears are unfounded or not they are a serious hurdle to dealing with rape and need to be addressed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  15. #55
    “It is more important that innocence be protected than it is that guilt be punished, for guilt and crimes are so frequent in this world that they cannot all be punished. But if innocence itself is brought to the bar and condemned, perhaps to die, then the citizen will say, "whether I do good or whether I do evil is immaterial, for innocence itself is no protection," and if such an idea as that were to take hold in the mind of the citizen that would be the end of security whatsoever.”
    ― John Adams

  16. #56
    Oh to be a fly on the wall for the next one of their family get-togethers. I bet the reality tv rights to that would be worth their weight in gold >.>

    OT though yeah, that's seriously jacked up. Perjury is perjury, saying we don't want to discourage honest witnesses by prosecuting those who perjure themselves is horrible precedent.

  17. #57
    The Lightbringer Seezer's Avatar
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    And also what this does is make it seem okay for people to lie about stuff like this. I don't care how people want to break this down, she still had plenty of time as a legal adult to come clean. And she waited 5 years because she thought she was going to get in trouble. Only when she was living with hopeless guilt did she come clean.
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  18. #58
    Pandaren Monk Auloria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bergtau View Post
    How do you ever go beyond reasonable doubt based on the testimony of a single individual?
    You can't, which is why most cases never see a trial. I really have no idea how this one progressed.

    I found another article with a bit more detail. It seems the girl had been in rehab for some time before coming forward.

    http://www.kptv.com/story/17317350/m...type=printable

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    We're discussing the length of time it has been since the incident. I think pointing out that we've exceeded the statute of limitations for the crime he was exonerated of is relevant for some perspective.
    Not really given that the ability to exonerate him rested solely in the hands of the girl.

    Bergtau's Law: As an online discussion grows longer, the probability that somebody will mention Godwin's Law approaches 1.
    Hitler wasn't all bad, I mean, he DID kill Hitler.
    An accident is something that you did not mean to do at all. A mistake is something that you regret doing.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by lupii View Post
    It's a double-edged sword: If they make an example of her, they discourage the possibility of false rape charges to appear. However, it also runs the risk of victims fearing that if something happens that they go to the police and their rapist gets free, of being charged because of it.
    Excuse me, but what kind of backwards reasoning is this? Real Rape victims have nothing to hide, they have the proof to step forward and show what happened.

    All they do is discourage woman from throwing the rape card when they don't have their own way.

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