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  1. #1

    Enhance and the Rise of Haste



    anyone else bummed about having to start gemming haste again?
    So much movement in these bosses makes it hard to always be in melee range

    Side note: how accurate is simcraft now a days? Its the only sim left right?

  2. #2
    Simcraft, and any other sim, isn´t the only thing to consider fpr gear, gems and reforges. It helps, but you shouldnt base your gear only on it.

    Try out some logs and don´t worry too much about stacking haste so much, the truth is, you want an even ammount of haste, mastery and crit. Don´t just exclude everything else in favor of haste.

    As far as I can tell, agility remains #1 so the final choice is for yellow sockets and all you are doing is picking haste or mastery.

    Im going for a mastery build with as much haste as I can get on the side. I reforge out of crit first to meet exp and hit caps and gem agi on red, agi mast on yellow and agi hit on blue. I like socket bonuses... its a thing.

  3. #3
    Brewmaster Murderdoll's Avatar
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    Yeah a lot of people are having vastly different sim results. Im personally simming with mastery still ahead.

    But Haste is still extremely important. I will be interested to see where we end up towards the end of the expansion but so far a healthy mix of mastery and haste seems to be the way to go.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by caballitomalo View Post
    Try out some logs and don´t worry too much about stacking haste so much, the truth is, you want an even ammount of haste, mastery and crit.
    That is terrible advice, you should not look at logs from attempts and make assumptions out of it. That is why simulations have iterations of 10k+.
    What is your reasoning behind keeping these three stats aligned? This sounds like a 'feels like' answer instead of a correct one.

    My complaint about stacking haste over mastery comes with boss movement. Haste takes a larger hit when you can not auto attack the boss than mastery outside of UE buff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Murderdoll View Post
    Yeah a lot of people are having vastly different sim results. Im personally simming with mastery still ahead.
    just curious, what are your current stats/armory?

  5. #5
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by caballitomalo View Post
    Simcraft, and any other sim, isn´t the only thing to consider fpr gear, gems and reforges. It helps, but you shouldnt base your gear only on it.

    Try out some logs and don´t worry too much about stacking haste so much, the truth is, you want an even ammount of haste, mastery and crit. Don´t just exclude everything else in favor of haste.
    This is honestly kind of like saying "I don't care what the math says, I flipped 100 coins and 55 of them turned up heads, so it's clearly not a 50/50 chance, more like 55/45".

    Statistics relies heavily on large numbers. Most of the time, when you see a statistical statement based on relatively low numbers that concludes Y, it will include a qualifier like "results accurate within +/- X, 19 times out of 20" What that means is that if you did the same study 20 times, you'd expect that 19 or so of those studies would vary between Y-X and Y+X. And the 20th study could be WILDLY different. Even then, they've had to increase the sample size just to reduce the size of X, and ensure that the chances are as low as 19 times out of 20.

    Running a few attempts isn't anywhere close to that level of statistical accuracy. You MIGHT be right, but it would only be for the same reason a stopped clock is right twice a day; coincidence happens.

    If you don't believe me, go flip 100 coins and record the results. Chances are you will NOT get 50 heads/50 tails. You'll get 51-54 of one or the other.

    That's why we use sims. Not because they're mechanical, but because they generate massive numbers of results. The same way if you wrote a program to "flip" a coin 50,000 times, you'd get much closer to 50/50 results, on average, than you would flipping 100 coins manually.

  6. #6
    Ive experienced similar results, all secondary stacks are very close to equal with agility nearing 4x the value of all of them

  7. #7
    Isn't that graph from Totemspot, which also has a graph that shows that in the end mastery will pull ahead?

  8. #8
    Wait... what... seriously?.... The difference is like 400 dps (102.2K vs 101.7-8K or so).
    I get simcraft, theorycrafting and whatnot, but this is a little insane.
    We're REALLY talking about a difference of less than 1%?

    When you're in a 6 minute fight, as a human being, you're going to be blowing a lot
    more than 1% of your DPS on latency, wrong button presses, RNG...

    And thank you Endus, you're spot on, I appreciate your explanation of simcraft and
    hope that it reaches those willing to listen (or understand).
    Last edited by badkarma81; 2012-11-16 at 05:07 AM. Reason: Forgot to give props to Endus

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimbold21 View Post
    Isn't that graph from Totemspot, which also has a graph that shows that in the end mastery will pull ahead?
    No this is from my personal simming of my current gear.

    Quote Originally Posted by badkarma81 View Post
    We're REALLY talking about a difference of less than 1%?.
    For now that is the difference. I don't understand your point.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by badkarma81 View Post
    Wait... what... seriously?.... The difference is like 400 dps (102.2K vs 101.7-8K or so).
    I get simcraft, theorycrafting and whatnot, but this is a little insane.
    We're REALLY talking about a difference of less than 1%?

    When you're in a 6 minute fight, as a human being, you're going to be blowing a lot
    more than 1% of your DPS on latency, wrong button presses, RNG...

    And thank you Endus, you're spot on, I appreciate your explanation of simcraft and
    hope that it reaches those willing to listen (or understand).
    I think the biggest difference is the nature of these stats. Haste gives you more hits, and mastery makes you hit harder. Currently, most HC events require a lot of movement, so i'm (personally) performing way better with mastery, since i can't just stand at boss and nuke.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyttis View Post
    I think the biggest difference is the nature of these stats. Haste gives you more hits, and mastery makes you hit harder. Currently, most HC events require a lot of movement, so i'm (personally) performing way better with mastery, since i can't just stand at boss and nuke.
    This would probably be the best approach to take in the current tier. Movement is going to skew those results more towards mastery anyway, lessening the gap between haste and mastery further - movement heavy fights would likely see mastery beating haste.

    This is of course somewhat subject to the talent build you run as well

  12. #12
    The plot is only valid for moving one of those stats at a time, not multiple ones together. So for your current gear situation, adding haste would be better than mastery/crit.

    That doesn't mean that after you added lets say 1000 haste, this ranking still remains true. After that the weights might have shifted, once again in favour of Mastery. In this situation, you really should use reforge plots instead of normal plots.

    Ps. Patchwerk Enh Sim should be pretty accurate, but melee movement ( which depends heavily on the definition of it ) currently lacks a bit of finesse I believe.

  13. #13
    Holy moly... did I take a beating from the theory crafters or what? Ok! let me be clear, if you took away ¨don´t worry about what sims say and disregard what theory crafters say¨then I phrased that comment horribly wrong.

    Now, I don´t disregard theorycrafting at all, I read MMO champ forums and EJ forums and totemspot and all the wonderfull guides that amazing people write up. I read forums like this and keep an eye out for all the great insight that many theorycrafters have to give. Having said that, theres a difference between practice and theory, as I´m sure you are aware off.

    When I say, try out some logs, I mean just that. Take a look at your logs, favoring the ones you get to live thru the entire fight and had as few hickups as possible to get a feel of how you are actually performing. Is the log the end all result of how you should be gearing or even playing? of course not, but beyond sim results logs are, at least in my humblest of oppinions, one of the most reliable sources of information of your game. I might be wrong, and would like to know if I am and the reasons too, but I think that statement is valid.

    So, in conclusion, just to be clear: Keep using sims. Keep reading theorycrafting. And, why not, check out your own logs. More data cant really hurt that much, could it?

  14. #14
    Wait... what... seriously?.... The difference is like 400 dps (102.2K vs 101.7-8K or so).
    I get simcraft, theorycrafting and whatnot, but this is a little insane.
    We're REALLY talking about a difference of less than 1%?

    When you're in a 6 minute fight, as a human being, you're going to be blowing a lot
    more than 1% of your DPS on latency, wrong button presses, RNG...

    And thank you Endus, you're spot on, I appreciate your explanation of simcraft and
    hope that it reaches those willing to listen (or understand).
    The reason is Enh wants every bit of dps it can get, so they can secure their raid spot. Progression raid leaders look at WoL, see Enh is only in top 10 in 2 fights, and pull out the sheers in favor of a boomkin.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronix View Post
    The reason is Enh wants every bit of dps it can get, so they can secure their raid spot. Progression raid leaders look at WoL, see Enh is only in top 10 in 2 fights, and pull out the sheers in favor of a boomkin.
    http://simulationcraft.org/505/Raid_T14H.html

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Thanntos View Post
    Fight Style: Patchwerk

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronix View Post
    The reason is Enh wants every bit of dps it can get, so they can secure their raid spot. Progression raid leaders look at WoL, see Enh is only in top 10 in 2 fights, and pull out the sheers in favor of a boomkin.
    Don't know how accurate Raidbot is, or if it pulls its info from WoL, but pretty much all the parses (Yes I set it to all, not top 100) normal and heroic, Balance was sitting near the bottom of almost all the fights, and only seen a few fights where they beat an Enhance, but not by much. So I don't know what's going on, but according to that, you wouldn't bench an Enhance to bring in a Boomkin.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Theprejudice View Post
    Fight Style: Patchwerk
    And? It's a good benchmark to how classes are stacking up against each other based off equal skill play to max potential of the class/spec. IE: if you aren't that skilled compared to others within your guild, your obviously going to see lower numbers, which is you're fault not the specs. As for the fights themselves, imo there are only a few this tier that are "favored to range" or "favored to melee" for that to be an excuse.

  19. #19
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theprejudice View Post
    Fight Style: Patchwerk
    If you're going to be like that, http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/25H/all/14/60/default/

    Using 25-man Normal because Heroic still lacks enough data for some fights to have anything usable.

    Enhancement is, according to all the logs on WoL, #5 overall. They are in the top 10 specs for all 6 fights in HoF, top 5 specs on 5/6. In MSV, they are in the top 10 on 5/6, top 5 on 3/6. ToES is still new and the data's a bit sparse, but still top 10 on 4/4, top 5 on 2/4.

    If you're claiming that WoL data says that Enh is only in the top 10 specs for 2 fights in T14, then you literally have not looked at the data you're using. Because they're doing really, really well.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanntos View Post
    And? It's a good benchmark to how classes are stacking up against each other based off equal skill play to max potential of the class/spec. IE: if you aren't that skilled compared to others within your guild, your obviously going to see lower numbers, which is you're fault not the specs. As for the fights themselves, imo there are only a few this tier that are "favored to range" or "favored to melee" for that to be an excuse.
    And yet it still means pretty much nothing because fights like the sim just don't exist. The only thing it is actually useful for is for a shaman to say "Hey! Demo Lock! In a perfect fight with equal gear, if I go enhancement and we both play perfectly, I'll probably beat you on dps". If you're looking for reasons to validate your raid spot to your raid leader, Simcraft should be the last place you look.

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