Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst
1
2
  1. #21
    The Patient Valient's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Surrey - England
    Posts
    225
    Revival can be nice, but it's very niche. Compared to other throughput CD's it's very weak but it's instant which means if your team is struggling to top off the raid right before you know a big raid wide ability is about to hit it can literally save the raid, this happens pretty rarely though. The dispel part of the Revival get's very little use too, in fact the only time I can think of is the trash leading up to Will and LFR Tsulong when the whole raids stands in Nightmares.

    Some tuning of Revival and Reworking of Zen Med would go a long way to allowing Monk healing to be reduced whilst not risking their raid spots but I am not full of confidence on this as it has been raised repeatedly throughout beta and ever since with no response or action from the devs.

    Fortunately my mainspec is Brewmaster (which means I have gear for windwalker too) so I plan on staying as flexible as possible to make sure I am not left playing a weak spec.
    Last edited by Valient; 2012-11-24 at 12:14 PM.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Valient View Post
    You need to look at the bigger picture.
    I am sorry but I think that you are missing the bigger picture here as this sadly enough isn't classic or bc anymore where it still was the norm for class xyz to perform leaps and bounds ahead of another that provided significant utility.
    Quote Originally Posted by Valient View Post
    why should they not be topping meters by an ammount that is equal to the average value of something like spirit link or aura mastery or barrier?
    I personally don't even disagree with that line but it should be clear by now that this is exactly what Blizzard does not want anymore. But of course I guess that they won't really compensate for the lack of utility or buff the other aspects of healing soon. Best thing to hope for is to be not bad for a whole tier.
    Last edited by cFortyfive; 2012-11-24 at 01:42 PM.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by whoranzone View Post
    I am sorry but I think that you are missing the bigger picture here as this sadly enough isn't classic or bc anymore where it still was the norm for class xyz to perform leaps and bounds ahead of another that provided significant utility.

    I personally don't even disagree with that line but it should be clear by now that this is exactly what Blizzard does not want anymore. But of course I guess that they won't really compensate for the lack of utility or buff the other aspects of healing soon. Best thing to hope for is to be not bad for a whole tier.
    i think your missing valient points tho, hes not asking to perform leaps and bounds ahead of everybody in addition to adding utility to the class.....he wants a balanced approach to monk healing, which is what should have happened in beta, and what every other healer currently does.

    somewhere along the line during the conception of the class blizzard threw out all the current rules of healing and decided to go against what works and created a massive throughput healer. because currently thats all we have...is throughput, nothing else nothing more. and while the novelty of a pure throughput healer was cool and op in the beginning, its just not how this game is supposed to work. in the end game, utility is what makes or breaks battles, not pure healing. having that crucial raid cool down to get that thru that last 5% of a bosses health, or giving the tank that cool down to save his life a second before someone casts a heal, is what is going to win the fight.

    we need a more versatile toolkit and to lessen the niche we are currently in.

    -better and more reliable single target healing. the increased chi gen on the ptr was a good start but its still not enough. surging mists needs to fill that gap we currently have with not having a reliable mid range heal to cast. it needs to heal for less and cost way less mana then current. we need to be able to semi spam something while channeling that can actually keep up with incoming tank damage when we have dead spots in soothing mist channels(it still does a lot), so we can top off with enveloping. and after that i suggest taking the increased soothing mist healing off envelope so it keeps it in line.

    -smarter healing thru eminence and rem. i cant tell you how many times rem has jumped 2-3 times between the same targets instead of going to someone without the buff. perhaps the change on the ptr has fixed this, i don't know because i haven't been able to test it.

    -better mastery. we have the only second party interaction mastery in the game. 90% of them go unused in a lot of fights. the early ptr change where it floated towards people if not used was the right direction imo, it just needed more tweaks i think and wasn't given enough of a chance. i think it needed the risk vs reward type deal where if someone was brave enough to jump on it, it would heal for the full amount, if it was unused and floating it should have healed for 20% of the amount or something.

    -vital mists needs to be be lower stacks, with the changes mentioned above. vital mists is relatively unused atm and with the upcoming change to tiger power it almost lessens the chance for it to be used. that mid range spot heal combined with the glyph would go nicely for fist weavers wanting to spot heal when there are fewer people taking damage for uplift to be used.

    -adjusted aoe heals.......id like to be able to be a more versatile healer then just straight throughput. adjust them accordingly to not be the end all to monk healing.

    -zen meditation needs to be changed to a dr cd......a glorified grounding totem doesn't cut it

    -life cocoon needs to be a better tank cd period.....the secondary effect is useless when it gets eaten in one hit.

    -more interesting secondary healing effects......instead of just giving more healing thru everything we do it would be nice to have some sort of secondary actions our heals do......(ancestral vigor, grace, aegis for example)

    -revival needs tuning......a mass dispel that heals is a masquerade of a raid cd. the only reason my 10man counts it as one is because im usually the only healer and its a last resort between the shammy and pally cds. most 25mans dont even bother counting it.

  4. #24
    High Overlord
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Norway
    Posts
    154
    Monks are very strong aoe healers indeed, but looking at WoL saying that monks are OP are just stupid.

    Healers can't be ranked on WoL very accurate, too many variables that play a part in it. like how much unnecessary damage your raid take, how much dps you got, shorter fights often give more hps.

    To get ranked on WoL Garalon 10 normal as a monk i would need like 97k HPS, and i cannot do that, does that make me a bad healer? no it doesn't, cause there is not enough healing to do for me to reach those numbers.

    A lot of WoL logs are messed up because healers aim for getting high ranks, getting extra crashes to make more damage ect so they can be ranked. that does not make the top ranked healers good, it just says that they made their raid take more damage just so they can be ranked.

  5. #25
    Warchief DirewolfX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
    Posts
    2,012
    Quote Originally Posted by gnorrior View Post
    PS: Before someone says "what do we lack":
    Smart healing
    All Eminence healing is smart healing; Renewing Mists is semi-intelligent when it jumps (not that the algorithm couldn't use a tweak). I can do 20% of my healing via Eminence... I can't think of any class which does more smart healing than that.

    Spot healing
    Surging Mists is higher HPS and HPM than anyone else's flash heal except priests (who have higher HPM). Soothing Mists is also serviceable as a spot heal for light damage. If more than a few people take damage, chances are good that enough of them are covered by Renewing Mists that I can Uplift. Can you give an example of a spot healing scenario where we're weak and other classes can handle it significantly better.

    tank healing
    Our tank healing is serviceable, but it could stand being a bit more mana efficient. I wouldn't mind seeing something that reduced the cost of Surging Mists on someone we designate as a 'tank'. I'm not sure how that would work without adding some totally new mechanic, however.

    tank healing CD
    Life Cocoon needs some love. I wouldn't say we lack a tank CD, it just needs a bit of improvement.

    raid healing CD (I mean, healing tide is really just flat OP here)
    Besides Healing Tide which is OP, I think Revival is comparable to Tranquility and Divine Hymn. It heals for less overall, but it only costs a single GCD, which leaves us 4-5 free GCDs to continue healing compared to druids or priests.

    raid dmg reduc CD (aura mastery (but they lack "conventional" raid CD's so its fine I suppose) and then theres just disc priests...don't even get me started)
    I'd love to see Zen Meditation more useful for MW, but I don't think this is a mandatory healer ability. Holy Priests and Resto Druids don't have one either. Offspec Paladins, DKs (wherever the AMZ is now) and Demo locks do get one.

    raid utility (stormlash,
    20-30k dps is nothing to sneeze at, and makes up for a lot of the lost raid utility (probably worth as much as Stormlash).

    mana tide, hymn of hope,
    No thanks to Mana Tide or Hymn of Hope. Having raided as a Resto Shaman throughout Cataclysm, having your mana regeneration based around a cooldown that affects the entire raid sucks, while other healers are built to be fine without it, and then have plenty of mana with it.

    stampeding roar, bubbles, lay on hands, BoP, divine shield, mass dispel, symbiosis, BoSacc, disc priest absorbs, paladins trivializing tank healing and still raid healing at the same time, etc)
    Bubbles/Disc Priest Absorbs are their core healing mechanic and have been overpowered since WotLK. Nothing new here, but I wouldn't call it raid utility.

    BoSac is a paladin's tank CD. Already discussed that ours is weak.

    Divine Shield is a paladin defensive cooldown, not really raid utility. We have a tier of talents dedicated to defensive cooldowns and you can actually use Zen Meditation for this if you time it right. (90% reduced magic damage; just pop it right before the big bang and don't go the full duration).

    Paladins 'trivializing' tank healing and raid healing at the same time - sure and we can trivialize raid healing while tank healing at the same time. That (Beacon of Light) is just a throughput mechanic; I'm not sure we need more throughput.

    Mass Dispel - Certainly a nice bit of raid utility, but the mana cost sucks (it's more than Surging Mist), so we usually have our shadow priests do it.

    Stampeding Roar - Also nice utility, but I'm not sold that this is vital for a healer.

    Symbiosis - Way overstated in value... it's really hit or miss whether it benefits classes other than druid (or even the druid). The only fight where I think 'OMG Symbiosis' is for the resto druids to use it on shaman for a mobile tranquility during phase 2 of Blade Lord.

  6. #26
    A raid wide uplift isn't what I'd consider a raid cooldown, revival should leave a half duration RM on everyone that's not eligible to be renewed by TFT. This way it would increase it's value in the short term but also make reapplying RM a HPS decrease.

  7. #27
    Blademaster CaliburX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    48
    I agree whole-heartedly with Valient's points. We really do need a nerf in terms of healing output, I think that point is undisputed and i would happily settle for being in the middle of the pile healing wise in exchange for 1 decent CD. We desperately need something in our arsenal that makes mistweavers worth more than just their green numbers.

    Rshams suffered long enough without a raid cooldown and when they finally got spirit link totem i felt as if that completed the spec, it's a shame that blizz did not learn from that.

    I personally would like to see something along the lines of the jade serpent statue absorbing overhealing and transfering the stored health to the recipient of the statue's soothing mist, maybe a buff which when placed on a player will cause the statue to always heal that player, could make for some decent tank healing.
    Hell, even allowing surging and enveloping mist to be instant cast on anyone while channeling soothing mists would help
    Last edited by CaliburX; 2012-11-26 at 05:50 PM.
    Pokémon X FC:2122-6118-6289 Fighting Safari:Sawk,Meditite & Breloom

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by CaliburX View Post
    I agree whole-heartedly with Valient's points. We really do need a nerf in terms of healing output, I think that point is undisputed and i would happily settle for being in the middle of the pile healing wise in exchange for 1 decent CD. We desperately need something in our arsenal that makes mistweavers worth more than just their green numbers.

    Rshams suffered long enough without a raid cooldown and when they finally got spirit link totem i felt as if that completed the spec, it's a shame that blizz did not learn from that.

    I personally would like to see something along the lines of the jade serpent statue absorbing overhealing and transfering the stored health to the recipient of the statue's soothing mist, maybe a buff which when placed on a player will cause the statue to always heal that player, could make for some decent tank healing.
    Hell, even allowing surging and enveloping mist to be instant cast on anyone while channeling soothing mists would help
    That overhealing transfer to the statue is a very interesting idea. But if you consider that:

    A. We do a lot of overhealing naturally, so it would have to be a moderate % of our overhealing;
    B. The statue can only cast soothing mists when we cast soothing mists, and since there are some encounters where we don't even find ourselves channeling it because of it's random and inconsistent chi generation, it would perhaps be a negligible cd.

  9. #29
    Blademaster CaliburX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    48
    Quote Originally Posted by zonde View Post
    That overhealing transfer to the statue is a very interesting idea. But if you consider that:

    A. We do a lot of overhealing naturally, so it would have to be a moderate % of our overhealing;
    I'd also consider the amount absorbed by the statue being capped. That way the ability wouldnt be overly powerful, by not having too high an uptime and/or availability.

    B. The statue can only cast soothing mists when we cast soothing mists, and since there are some encounters where we don't even find ourselves channeling it because of it's random and inconsistent chi generation, it would perhaps be a negligible cd.
    Indeed no one casts soothing mists for it's chi generation, but certainly for instant surging and enveloping mists when focusing on a tank. Also the overhealing transference would actually give people a reason to use it. Plus the chi generation aspect is being buffed slightly in 5.1
    Last edited by CaliburX; 2012-11-26 at 08:41 PM. Reason: spelling >,<
    Pokémon X FC:2122-6118-6289 Fighting Safari:Sawk,Meditite & Breloom

  10. #30
    Warchief DirewolfX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
    Posts
    2,012
    I wouldn't want to reward overhealing. Part of what differentiates a good healer from a bad one is knowing when to cast heavy heals and when to conserve mana. If overhealing was rewarded, it would partially negate that.

    I'm not sure what problem you're trying to address... you complain about lack of cooldowns and then just provide a mechanic that increases overall throughput.

  11. #31
    They could treat the Jade statue like they do the Ox statue. For every X amount of healing done by the monk then something happens. not sure what the something should be though.

  12. #32
    Blademaster CaliburX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    48
    I didnt suggest it as a reward for overhealing, although i can see your point. Monks do a tonne of overhealing just because most of their heals are over time, more so because our only smart heal (glyphed surging(excluding eminence)) is the only heal we have which isnt over time.

    The majority of our spell base is largly clipped by non-HoT based healers before they've run their duration.The idea was not to promote excessive overheals, mearly a means of redirecting those wasted heals into a single target CD, albeit a throughput CD, which could be used for tanks since that is an area where mistweavers are lacking.

    It also added value to a spell which most dont see as worthwhile except for it's instant casts.
    Pokémon X FC:2122-6118-6289 Fighting Safari:Sawk,Meditite & Breloom

  13. #33
    Warchief DirewolfX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
    Posts
    2,012
    Quote Originally Posted by CaliburX View Post
    I didnt suggest it as a reward for overhealing, although i can see your point. Monks do a tonne of overhealing just because most of their heals are over time, more so because our only smart heal (glyphed surging(excluding eminence)) is the only heal we have which isnt over time.

    The majority of our spell base is largly clipped by non-HoT based healers before they've run their duration.The idea was not to promote excessive overheals, mearly a means of redirecting those wasted heals into a single target CD, albeit a throughput CD, which could be used for tanks since that is an area where mistweavers are lacking.

    It also added value to a spell which most dont see as worthwhile except for it's instant casts.
    Druids (and at times any other healers who have used significant HoTs) have had this problem for a long time and I don't think compensating for overhealing is the solution. If other healers are topping off everyone who has your hots, it means your raid had more than enough healing to cover the the incoming damage, and then it's just a healing meters battle over who can snipe heals better (i.e. press uplift faster).

    I don't think for us, it's due to having so many HoTs... it's more an artifact of the unique interaction between Renewing Mist and Uplift. Your Renewing Mist tries to spread to targets taking damage, but inevitably some of them are healed close to full by the time you press Uplift to heal the ones who aren't taking damage. Also, Uplift is a convenient button to press to spend Chi to build Mana Tea stacks.

    It's also foolish to exclude Eminence as a source of smart heals, because when played right, it's a large part of our healing. We have as much or more smart healing than most healers. Paladins have Light of Dawn, Priests have Prayer of Mending and Circle of Healing (holy only), Druids have Wild Growth, Shaman have Chain Heal (after the big first target only) and Ancestral Awakening (crit proc). Most of these are significantly more limited in how frequently they can be used than our Renewing Mist->Uplift combination, which is semi-smart (Renewing Mist will try to jump to injured targets).

    Edit: Left out Cascade for priests smart healing... although it practically/actually heals the whole raid at 15 targets.
    Last edited by DirewolfX; 2012-11-26 at 10:24 PM.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Dorfie View Post
    Monks getting nerfed to the ground baby. Jab jab uplift = high skill ceiling, jk class.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-23 at 01:02 PM ----------



    Smart healing: Healing 25 people simultaneously is pretty smart I think

    Spot healing: Why not spot heal 25 people at once?

    Tank healing/CD: Lol? Who tank heals these days? Don't they just heal themselves with WoG/Death Strike/Frenzied Rejuv

    Raid CD/utility: Raid being full HP and never dying isn't good enough?

    Jabjabuplift isn't enough to carry some players I guess
    Might I suggest you actually go PLAY the class at level 90, and then return to us with a relevant, thought out post?

    Thanks.

    That being said, I don't think Monks are OP. Sure, we excel at raid healing, but when it comes to much of anything else, as many have said, we are incredibly lackluster. We are pigeon-holed into raid healing. Other classes can tank heal with some amount of efficiency, they can spot heal, etc... but monks? Not so much. We have Zen Meditation (useless if it's a melee-based damage...), Life Cocoon (bleh), and Revival as a raid-wide heal. It just seems like a bit of an oversight to make us so weak.

  15. #35
    Blademaster CaliburX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    48
    Quote Originally Posted by DirewolfX View Post
    Druids (and at times any other healers who have used significant HoTs) have had this problem for a long time and I don't think compensating for overhealing is the solution. If other healers are topping off everyone who has your hots, it means your raid had more than enough healing to cover the the incoming damage, and then it's just a healing meters battle over who can snipe heals better (i.e. press uplift faster).
    To bold: Nor do I really, it was only a suggestion for something original, rather than something altered slightly and given a new name
    Pokémon X FC:2122-6118-6289 Fighting Safari:Sawk,Meditite & Breloom

  16. #36
    Warchief DirewolfX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
    Posts
    2,012
    Well, to spin things in a bit more constructive direction, I think our 'healing utility' would be a lot stronger with some simple tweaks:

    1. Life Cocoon's +HoT effect lasts the full duration, even if the shield ends early. (Dream change: Life Cocoon absorb and duration increased 50%, but only absorbs up to 30% of each attack).

    2. Zen Meditation (MWer only) also reduces non-physical damage taken by allies within X yard by 30-45%, but no longer redirects hostile spells. It makes our cooldowns the reverse of the norm: Weaker instant heal but stronger channeled damage reduction.

  17. #37
    The Patient Valient's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Surrey - England
    Posts
    225
    Quote Originally Posted by DirewolfX View Post
    Well, to spin things in a bit more constructive direction, I think our 'healing utility' would be a lot stronger with some simple tweaks:

    1. Life Cocoon's +HoT effect lasts the full duration, even if the shield ends early. (Dream change: Life Cocoon absorb and duration increased 50%, but only absorbs up to 30% of each attack).

    2. Zen Meditation (MWer only) also reduces non-physical damage taken by allies within X yard by 30-45%, but no longer redirects hostile spells. It makes our cooldowns the reverse of the norm: Weaker instant heal but stronger channeled damage reduction.
    Life cocoon change wont happen because it would throw up balancing issues with PvP, unless you tie in some kind of limit, for instance basing the absorb on the targets HP therefor helping it scale with a tank and giving an element of uniqueness.

    Also the Zen Med change is nice, but probably a bit too strong. Let's be honest, the absorb spells thing it just shitty, they need to scrap it and start again.

  18. #38
    Warchief DirewolfX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
    Posts
    2,012
    Quote Originally Posted by Valient View Post
    Life cocoon change wont happen because it would throw up balancing issues with PvP, unless you tie in some kind of limit, for instance basing the absorb on the targets HP therefor helping it scale with a tank and giving an element of uniqueness.

    Also the Zen Med change is nice, but probably a bit too strong. Let's be honest, the absorb spells thing it just shitty, they need to scrap it and start again.
    Well, the Absorb for me is something like 200k, so even with +50% absorb, it's only 300k, giving it less staying power than Hand of Sacrifice, which is up to the Paladin's HP (360k+). Maybe the +50% is a bit much... +25%? Still, the Paladin ability lasts 12 seconds versus our 6 (or 9 with the proposed change). I'd be okay with the bonus to HoTs being dropped or reduced if they went with that change.

    I'm not sure the ZM change is that strong. Power Word: Barrier is 25%, 10 seconds and instant cast. This would be more damage reduction, shorter duration and channeled instead of instant (a big loss, since you lose out on potentially millions of healing if used during a heavy AoE phase). There should probably be something to prevent using it for just a second or two to block some burst AoE like Total Annihilation. Possibly the damage reduction ramps up over the duration of the channel?

    Anyway, these are just dream changes. Personally, I think we'll still be incredibly strong healers after the nerf to Renewing Mist and our tier 2 talents. Some of the lost healing will shift to other abilities (i.e. more SCK when stacked and SooM for spot healing) and many of our abilities aren't being nerfed, so it won't be a pure 25% nerf to our bottom line.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •