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  1. #41

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrven View Post
    Classes and specs rise and fall each patch, hotfix and expansion. There are still a handful of fights rogues are great at and while many don't want to hear it you just came out of a raid that all 3 specs were in the top 3rd for dmg and on some fights all 3 specs were the 1st 2nd and 3rd best specs. This might make the drop feel worse then it is but rogues are just dealing with things everybody else does from time to time.
    Not one Rogue on these forums cares about their PvE damage. They will skyrocket in the next content patch and keep going up like they always do, we've known this for a long time.

    Everyone's issue is the play style and PvP viability. Outside of Smoke Bomb Rogues are completely unviable in PvP. If they took that away they would be hands down the worst class in PvP in the history of Warcraft.

    I did not mind the changes to our damage. I actually feel the change gives us more options down the road.

    My issue is the lack of mobility and control. In an environment where every class has multiple ways to CC Rogues got absolutely nothing, and it is clearly evident by how easy they are neutralized by CC. Rogues were a great CC class because of their mobility and core abilities. We still have all the tools to be a great CC class, but they turned us into sitting ducks... unable to perform our core abilities that we rely on. So we use CoS to put some pressure, but then it leaves us as easy targets.

    Hell survivability might be the biggest issue of all. "Target the Rogue" has become a popular saying in arenas these days. They can only withstand so much and for a short time with their CDs. Once the CDs are gone they're absolutely worthless.

    I feel like Blizzard Devs don't know where to start to help Rogue PvP. It seems they pretty much accepted they will not be a competitive PvP this expansion... better luck next year. If Rogue could execute their CC and really control a battle I would still be playing, that would actually be fun.

  3. #43
    Rogues are terrible at the moment. They just aren't viable. It was painful to level mine. At the moment all my rogue is good for is mining.

    It seems like Ghostcrawler thinks that there are a lot of players out there who are happy with a broken class. Rogues really should always be top of DPS charts in order to encourage players to bring rogues over hybrid specs who can perform more than one role, but that design philosophy died a long time ago it seems.

    Whatever. I'm not wasting my time with a non-viable broken spec. It's a shame because I like the new Shadowdance animation.

  4. #44
    Bloodsail Admiral Ethes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garian View Post
    Rogues are terrible at the moment. They just aren't viable. It was painful to level mine. At the moment all my rogue is good for is mining.

    It seems like Ghostcrawler thinks that there are a lot of players out there who are happy with a broken class. Rogues really should always be top of DPS charts in order to encourage players to bring rogues over hybrid specs who can perform more than one role, but that design philosophy died a long time ago it seems.

    Whatever. I'm not wasting my time with a non-viable broken spec. It's a shame because I like the new Shadowdance animation.
    I don't see why this should be a philosophy at all. Let's make one class stronger than the rest, for forever! Thats basically what you're saying. Why don't other classes deserve a bit of that glory?
    Besides, if we follow your reasoning the same could be applied to Warlocks, Mages and Hunters.
    Why can't you let everybody play a character they prefer, instead of making 1 (or 4) classes OP. Besides, it's not that rogues have been "underpowered" a lot during this game.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Ethes View Post
    I don't see why this should be a philosophy at all. Let's make one class stronger than the rest, for forever! Thats basically what you're saying. Why don't other classes deserve a bit of that glory?
    Besides, if we follow your reasoning the same could be applied to Warlocks, Mages and Hunters.
    Why can't you let everybody play a character they prefer, instead of making 1 (or 4) classes OP. Besides, it's not that rogues have been "underpowered" a lot during this game.
    2.0.x
    3.0.x
    4.0.x
    5.0.x

    I'd say that a third (Of the 'endgame' content) of each expansion suggests otherwise.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Ethes View Post
    I don't see why this should be a philosophy at all. Let's make one class stronger than the rest, for forever! Thats basically what you're saying.
    That's not what he's saying. The question I think he's asking is:

    Why bring a rogue when you could bring a hybrid that does the same damage and can also heal?

    Go look at the arena representation or play a rogue in pvp at 90... the class is struggling. A lot. Rogues want to be viable, not overpowered.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethes View Post
    Why can't you let everybody play a character they prefer
    Because not every class should be good in every situation! That's the point of having different classes. If every class could do everything at all times, what would be the point of playing a different class?

    You are supposed to work as a TEAM - class A brings X, class B brings Y, class C brings Z.

    This used to be a game where each class brought unique abilities to the table. Some had good damage, some had good CC and others had good heals.

    Now, almost every class was given new forms of CC with the release of MoP. Most pure dps classes also received ways to heal themselves.
    The game is not about class-specific strengths and weaknesses anymore. It's a question of which class does everything most effectively.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Ethes View Post
    I don't see why this should be a philosophy at all. Let's make one class stronger than the rest, for forever! Thats basically what you're saying. Why don't other classes deserve a bit of that glory?
    Besides, if we follow your reasoning the same could be applied to Warlocks, Mages and Hunters.
    Why can't you let everybody play a character they prefer, instead of making 1 (or 4) classes OP. Besides, it's not that rogues have been "underpowered" a lot during this game.
    Rogues only have one role: DPS. They also have the disadvantage of being melee too. Ranged have always benefited more in PVE because they didn't have to worry about cleaves and have less downtime on DPS when moving etc.

    The goal is to encourage a stable population of all classes. Ghostcrawler is taking advantage of the fact that rogues were already a minority.

  8. #48
    GC isn't saying rogues are fine in that statement, he's mocking the absurdity of the "omg your class design is worse than NAZISSSSSSs" kind of overstatement.


    I'm sure the devs know that rogues are hurting in pvp.

  9. #49
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6-C-_PJTa4

    I remember the game as it used to be...
    Not... the abomination it has become.
    My rogue bears the burdon of GC's misjudgement.
    But I've been patient, I've been waiting...
    And when the time is right, the (rogue) betrayer
    will become... the betrayed (by the share holders...)

    At that time, there were no Pokemons in the game and bad guys were real part of the lore : you knew who and why you were fighting. Every class was bringing something special and raid management was something. Everything has been taken away by GC.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Validity View Post
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    You really think Rogues are fine? Right now I think you have a brain tumor. Let's hope both of our opinions change soon.
    Your opinion would kill me. Mine would mean your video game character is slightly underpowered. Hmmm.
    Source: Greg Street's (Ghostcrawler's) twitter

    So Ghostcrawler is aware and of the opinion that we should be underpowered.

    Also, he seems to have sorta dodged the question? Edit: Even if the question was very poorly worded.
    While you often offer valid concerns, I have to say I think you are sometimes drawing conclusion out of nowhere, and try to look for every possible negative in each post about rogues you see.
    This kind of behaviour will get you nowhere and will only make you more and more bitter.
    While I don’t agree with Ghostcrawler, and I do think he underestimates the rogue issue, he hasn’t said anything remotely bad in this perticular tweet.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-26 at 11:41 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterHamster View Post
    All you want to hear is "We're buffing you", anything else is uninteresting, or as you put it, non-answer posts. (and wonder who'd be the first to whine if they went silent)
    That's not how it works.

    Atleast appreciate that Blizzard posts. GC takes from his personal time off to answer these retarded tweets and people complain and quote mine him to make a point.
    False,

    what we want to hear is their filosophy in certain aspects of their rogue treatment:

    why does every utility spell cost us damage? why do we still play the same as in vanilla? why are we still so gear dependent (haste will fix it?). Why do we have these long cooldowns on everything? why are we so passive in nature with over 50% passive damage and a lot of wait time?

    Why are answers so incoherent? When blizz says they will improve mobility, and subsequently adjust Shuriken toss damage (something we really needed?) and adjust blind, a CC spell, raises some serious questions about wether they really know what they are doing.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-26 at 11:58 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    GC isn't saying rogues are fine in that statement, he's mocking the absurdity of the "omg your class design is worse than NAZISSSSSSs" kind of overstatement.


    I'm sure the devs know that rogues are hurting in pvp.
    I am hoping they do. But to be fair, I haven't seen much worthwhile to counter the issues so far.
    Last edited by patcherke; 2012-11-26 at 11:00 AM.
    People can be whoever they choose to be on the internet - It is strange that so many people choose to be stupid.

    every time I see someone mentioning the word "rouge" I get the urge to say "yes, we are overpowdered"...

  11. #51
    Yeah, I don't see how anyone gets that he's aknowledging that rogue's are underpowered. All he's saying is that blizzards stance is that rogues are fine with the power that they have (a statement I disagree with).

    PVP - I havn't PVP'd since BC. I've tried each expansion and it just isn't fun as a rogue. I can totally understand the PVP point of view that rogues are underpowered.

    PVE - The only trouble I see from a PVE point of view is the huge damage disparity between combat and assas. Combat blows assas out of the water for a cleave fight while assas does the same for single target. I wish they would bring the two more in line with each other. Seems like I spend alot of unnessecary gold in reforging/regemming between fights. Maybe increase the value of mastery for combat while increasing the energy penalty for using blade flurry? I dunno, would be nice if something would change though.

  12. #52
    I'm pretty sure they want combat to be better on a flurry fight, and the other two specs to be better single target or full aoe. GC himself has complained several times that it's difficult to make a rogue feel, say, "assassiny" in one spec and "combaty" in another.

    I honestly find this a source of distress. It means that whomever came up with the concept behind the rogue specs either didn't explain it to his successor or lost his own path. It should be obvious to Blizzard, having had the specs for so long, as to what each spec should excel at and feel like.


    1)- Combat could use a situational attack off the global. It's silly that warriors have more apms than us, and since the combat rogue is designed to flood with energy and be global capped during cooldowns, it would add more to that.
    Combat should maintain its defensive tricks, such as greater armor ("studded leather") and of course, riposte. These should never have been taken away, as they were clutch to our concept.

    2)- Assassination needs something to build up. Right now, a warrior feels more like an assassin, with the ability to hold back on sustained damage to deliver burst with taste for blood. An assassination rogue, whose rotation has the weakest relation to the class throughout the game, could be given a secondary resource that could be expended for burst damage. This would be threatening in pvp, and would add flavor in pvp. The things I really like about this spec right now are blindside, envenom, and vendetta (yes, I like vendetta), but only envenom captures the "planning and payoff" of the assassin. Other games give assassins a "death strike" that has sharp limits on its use- a version in WoW would be something that would take some time to build up and plan, and would be scary. In PvE, one thing that would be interesting would be a finisher that would be a flurry of dual strikes- such a move could be balanced such that using a five point version of it during envenom-buff would be more damaging than envenom itself, but outside of envenom buff the opposite would be true. That would reward pooling and envenom buff even more than currently.
    Mutilate should never have lost its flavorful defenses, and they should have been expounded upon. Instead of simply taking less damage passively, they could have tied damage reduction to our energy level- a full energy rogue taking 15% less damage, and an ooe rogue taking normal damage, for instance. We should have never lost cold blood.

    3)- Sub has been the only spec that managed to get a flavor attached. With clear access to ninja magic, Blizzard apparently thought they were making all rogues into sub rogues with this expansion, which they viewed as the only real or successful theme. Instead they mostly made us all into cata era muti rogues, energy starved and waddling uselessly towards are heroic opponents, a dazed mob to be put down by pve rotation mages and 300k critting warriors. Without all of sub's flavorful moves actually being in sub, the spec is rather aimless- shadow dance becomes the entirety of the spec's interesting powers, and backstab is vaguely interesting as a powerful builder with a powerful restriction (much more powerful a restriction when an opponent can prevent his back from ever showing simply by being the same speed or faster than the rogue).




    After giving up on the 70% cripple design, Blizzard should have modernized the class. I assumed when they told us that cripple was being nerfed, that we would also see a serious baseline mobility cooldown, and we did not. I then predicted rogues would be useless this tier, and was correct about that. I've posted what needs to be changed on the official forums, and mostly attracted a lot of bad hunters who never were past 1600 telling me that it's ok that hunters have better stealth, that rogues don't need gap closers because we can open on things from stealth, and something something this one season rogues were good.



    Rogues need:

    1)- Shadowstep baseline. Any gap closer would work, but the flavor of shadowstep and the effect are both actually cool. The few guildies I've broken down into rolling rogues all love shadowstep and pretty much dislike the rest of the class.
    2)- Some manner of defensive raid cooldown. This should probably be tied to smokebomb, which already has an animation (rogues get one animation per fucking expac), a real cooldown (maybe too real- 2 minute smoke would be fine), a plausible method for defending allies (obfuscation), and no real use in pve currently. It could also be tied to an entirely new move- for instance, a debilitating strike that reduces all damage done by the target by 20% for 10 seconds, with a long cooldown (minutes) would be a valid raid cooldown in most situations (not all, as many mechanics are not considered owned by the boss). Alternatively, no mechanism is really given for rallying cry or shroud of concealment, so simply snapping your fingers and having your allies take less damage wouldn't be out of line for ninja magic, right?
    3)- Reduce the exorbitant cost of our CCs. Blind's massive cost is being halved (cooldown back to 90 seconds, where it was for most of rogue pvp history), but it's still an odd bird. Glyphing polymorph or freezing trap to remove dots is costly, but at least these moves see very frequent play. I'm not a fan of spending a glyph because of a move I use once or twice per arena match, and the glyph says "this move actually doesn't break instantly anymore". I can't even play without that stupid glyph. Kidney Shot is totally out there. With so much of our damage being shifted to finishers, giving one up is VERY costly, and the only other class giving that up is cats, and only because they are the fourth rogue spec. Monks don't spend Chi, pallies don't spend Holy Power, and I think they took away the rage cost on shockwave too. We still pay for interrupts even! Blizzard thinks energy is the best, so they design us to use it for everything. This is fair, but apparently in Blizzard's logic, if you go to a Starbucks and want coffee, you pay for it- but if you don't have any cash, then you just get it for free, and twice as much. Other classes should have to use resources to get their effects as well. If resources just exist to deal damage, then treat energy and combo points like that too. Kidney Shot should at a minimum deal damage equal to 50% of the missed eviscerate/envenom. Having to go through frontal avoidance is ludicrously hard without any mobility, and it's frustrating to have to spend shadowstep + kidney to get a stun on a warrior, when all he has to do is vaguely face me and press his 20 second cost free aoe stun that I can't dodge or parry. I have to give up my biggest single move to land mine. Kidney shot should probably either have no cooldown, a 10 second cooldown (like the cat version), or all the competing stuns, especially no-skill trash like shock and freeze, should have longer cooldowns.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    I'm pretty sure they want combat to be better on a flurry fight, and the other two specs to be better single target or full aoe. GC himself has complained several times that it's difficult to make a rogue feel, say, "assassiny" in one spec and "combaty" in another.
    I'm not saying that combat shouldn't be better in a cleave fight, i'm saying the spec shouldn't be ridiculously better. Same with assasination, it should be ahead in a single target fight, but not as far ahead as it is.

    I totally agree that the class has lost much of the flavor that it used to have. Seems like other classes (excluding warriors) keep getting abilities and animations that build upon what they already had and make them feel more like thier class description. Examples, warlocks can turn into a freakin' demon, Shadow priests with the creepy shadow self walking to the target, Shamans calling up powerfull controllable elementals....

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by mongoose6 View Post
    I'm not saying that combat shouldn't be better in a cleave fight, i'm saying the spec shouldn't be ridiculously better. Same with assasination, it should be ahead in a single target fight, but not as far ahead as it is.

    I totally agree that the class has lost much of the flavor that it used to have. Seems like other classes (excluding warriors) keep getting abilities and animations that build upon what they already had and make them feel more like thier class description. Examples, warlocks can turn into a freakin' demon, Shadow priests with the creepy shadow self walking to the target, Shamans calling up powerfull controllable elementals....
    We have swirly ball rejoice...
    The only thing I disagree with what you said is about warriors. I regretfully checked out warrior talents and skills and I have to say they are darn solid right now, way too solid even. I really get the feeling that the rogue dev team gave all their ideas to warriors and monks(mostly) and then were left with nothing.
    The biggest problem we will run into is when we will get insanely op with due to gear scaling. I think then most people will forget how poorly designed the current rogue is and Blizz can say their usual "You are fine" or the "See? Haste fixed it" line.

  15. #55
    Bloodsail Admiral Ethes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guns View Post
    That's not what he's saying. The question I think he's asking is:

    Why bring a rogue when you could bring a hybrid that does the same damage and can also heal?

    Go look at the arena representation or play a rogue in pvp at 90... the class is struggling. A lot. Rogues want to be viable, not overpowered.

    Because not every class should be good in every situation! That's the point of having different classes. If every class could do everything at all times, what would be the point of playing a different class?

    You are supposed to work as a TEAM - class A brings X, class B brings Y, class C brings Z.

    This used to be a game where each class brought unique abilities to the table. Some had good damage, some had good CC and others had good heals.

    Now, almost every class was given new forms of CC with the release of MoP. Most pure dps classes also received ways to heal themselves.
    The game is not about class-specific strengths and weaknesses anymore. It's a question of which class does everything most effectively.
    Viable is good, it's what it should be. But they shouldn't be top damage because a ret paladin or a feral druid can offheal (cause lets be honest, for PvE thats not really true). As for PvP, being melee isn't a particular disadvantage however, for PvP off-heals do really count. That should be compensated with other forms than damage though, CC's, defensive cd's, etc. As for PvE, their damage should be on par and being a melee should mean you've got something to offer outside of DPS which makes the raid want to bring you. You can think of buffs, cc, raid cd's, etc.

    DPS can differ (although should be more or less similar for all dps classes), but it shouldn't be that "pure (melee) classes" should have an advantage over hybrids. Unless Blizzard wants to change the role of a hybrid dps!

    Blizzard should make playing each class rewarding in its own way, without one or two classes destroying the dps charts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Garian View Post
    Rogues only have one role: DPS. They also have the disadvantage of being melee too. Ranged have always benefited more in PVE because they didn't have to worry about cleaves and have less downtime on DPS when moving etc.

    The goal is to encourage a stable population of all classes. Ghostcrawler is taking advantage of the fact that rogues were already a minority.
    That doesn't mean rogues should be overpowered, they should be viable. But yes, I agree that you shouldn't be punished for playing a rogue.

  16. #56
    pve wise. i dont see how u say rogues are under powerd. im loving my rogue atm dps wise also. mines 493 i lvl atm and i have to say rogues scaling with gear is wicked. in 463 gear i was flat out doing 40k dps in raids. now im alot better geared i sit on 85-90k. raid wise sure casters beat me by 2-5k dps. but rogues over all scale awesome with gear. and will make up for it next teir imo. feel free to armory my rogue. his name is Sneax from amanthul US. only lvl 90 toon with that name at lvl 90 i think.

    as for pvp wise yes i dont pvp on my rogue at all because of these simple reasons.
    1. they gave everyone else our versatility and skills and gave us nothing at all.
    2. every other class can do what a rogue can
    3. rogues are no longer stealthy. feral has more stealth than a rogue does..
    4. mobility is gone u have to be invis to move faster if u have chosen the talent and staying invis as a rogue lol who u kidding.
    5. cant stay on a target with out using defensive's as a offensive so its lose lose.
    thats bout all i can think of right now i could go on tho lol.

  17. #57
    The boat has never sunk that quickly right after an expansion release, yet :

    http://www.warcraftrealms.com/weekly...-1&factionid=3

    but everything is fine, GC ;-)
    Keep that in mind, next time your boss has to comment the financial results to the share holders.

    EDIT : http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/2...ted-time-only/
    How funny !..

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ithildine View Post

    I remember the game as it used to be...
    Not... the abomination it has become.
    My rogue bears the burdon of GC's misjudgement.
    But I've been patient, I've been waiting...
    And when the time is right, the (rogue) betrayer
    will become... the betrayed (by the share holders...)
    Poetic and prophetic. I wanna try too!

    Roses are Red
    Violets are blue
    Warriors do rogues up the ass
    Now every other class can too!

    ... I don't think it came out so good.
    Naftc, "Hunters are the cheapest class in game and when played right are more deadly than a train plowing through a field of bunnies covered in napalm"

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Ethes View Post
    DPS can differ (although should be more or less similar for all dps classes), but it shouldn't be that "pure (melee) classes" should have an advantage over hybrids.
    That is the stated dev intent, however. Pures are supposed to have a small edge, or they will disappear from raiding entirely.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by OneSent View Post
    I did laugh at the first part though. GC always had a sense of humor.
    Is that how you classify his WoW design decisions?

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