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  1. #1

    Fire mage doing very low damage

    Hi guys,
    Need some help, this is my mage:
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...shinobi/simple
    I am doing very low damage, in terrace today i was last and other fire mages do double my damage. I did 40k I think but I've had fights with 30 as well.
    Explaining gear/talents:
    Second trinket is bad, I know, working on it.
    Read icy veins guilde and it recommened invocation and nether tempest for single target so I took them. Swapped nether tempest for frost bomb later, because I though not being able to keep track of the debuff on boss makes me cast it too early or too late so took frost bomb so I can cast it every time is off cooldown.
    I used icy veins guide for all other stuff, because I didn't play fire since wrath.

    Help me find out what I am doing wrong please!

  2. #2
    Sadly, as I found out (and another guildy) - until you are reforging out of hit instead of into it, you are going to have a crit way too low. That just takes time and gear.

    Your dps revolves around double crits as often as you can, the chance of a double crit = crit%*crit%.

    So at a total of 15% crit that is a 2% double crit, at 30% crit that is 9% double crit. So doubling your crit has quadrupled your double crit (and awesomeness).

    PS: I'm a noob fire mage, just converted from arcane...
    PPS: Enchant all your gear ... always...

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by schwarzkopf View Post
    Sadly, as I found out (and another guildy) - until you are reforging out of hit instead of into it, you are going to have a crit way too low. That just takes time and gear.

    Your dps revolves around double crits as often as you can, the chance of a double crit = crit%*crit%.

    So at a total of 15% crit that is a 2% double crit, at 30% crit that is 9% double crit. So doubling your crit has quadrupled your double crit (and awesomeness).

    PS: I'm a noob fire mage, just converted from arcane...
    PPS: Enchant all your gear ... always...
    S

    Say you remove 5% hit to get 6% crit, doing so you will indeed see an increase of crits, but you will also miss more often which is even less damage than a non-crit. Furthermore, a miss would have a significant inpact on your crit steaks to as spells that miss will reset the hot streak. This is specialy true for blast that, if it hits, always crit.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Narutoninja View Post
    Hi guys,
    Need some help, this is my mage:
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...shinobi/simple
    I am doing very low damage, in terrace today i was last and other fire mages do double my damage. I did 40k I think but I've had fights with 30 as well.
    Explaining gear/talents:
    Second trinket is bad, I know, working on it.
    Read icy veins guilde and it recommened invocation and nether tempest for single target so I took them. Swapped nether tempest for frost bomb later, because I though not being able to keep track of the debuff on boss makes me cast it too early or too late so took frost bomb so I can cast it every time is off cooldown.
    I used icy veins guide for all other stuff, because I didn't play fire since wrath.

    Help me find out what I am doing wrong please!
    As you said yourself, your trinket is bad. Easy 3-5 k dps.

    Hit cap + more crit helps. Molten armor is ofc a must.

    Combustion glyph. Less combustions, but its easier to get 1 great combustions, than the double ammount. + Lines better up with cds.

    Enchants etc.

    Read the thread dedicated to combustion.

    Basicly, the easisest version (Not the 100% proper way)

    Open with: Fireball Prepull, Bomb. Spam Fireball till Crit. Use Inferno Blast. U now have a pyro proc.

    Do you use PoM? If you do, PoM.

    Alter Time. Pyroblast (And another if you use PoM), Alter Time, Pyroblast (and another if you used Pom). 2-4 Instant pyros. If they crit (1-2) or (2-4 with PoM), Combustion.

    The 100% right way to do this, is different, but you are not on that stage yet, so Il leave that out. PM if you want the full answer.
    Note: Keep your bomb up during this, very important, (not while you use the instants, but before), to get the 10% buff to Pyroblast (-> More dmg to crits).

    Every 1,5 min you can do this Combustion (With PoM if you have it), and every 3 min You can Combustion with Alter Time (With PoM) if you have it.

    While taking PoM makes you do sick combustions, I believe that you prob have more issues not standing in shit. Take Scorch if you want to be mobile, and PoM if you can manage.

    Remember to keep whatever your end talent (in that case invocation).

    Frost bomb is the worst talent. Nether Tempest or Living Bomb, depending on fight. Mostly, I prefer Living Bomb, but NT is the most single target. If there is 2-3 targets, Living Bomb winds tho (In LFR its Stone Guards, Garaj in spirit realm, Elegon, Garalon, Windlord, Amber, Grand Emp, Tsulong, Sha).

    This is counting the bosses you SHOULD cleave on. Will of the Emperor is a different beast, because keeping dots on everything is best, however in LFR it might be better just to keep 2x Living Bomb up and go on boss.
    Last edited by Faylo; 2012-11-24 at 12:21 AM.
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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by eErike View Post
    Say you remove 5% hit to get 6% crit, doing so you will indeed see an increase of crits, but you will also miss more oftenalways crit.
    No you wouldn't - because you would be hit capped, once you get the gear that I mentioned he needed in the post.

  6. #6
    Thanks for the detailed explanation Faylo! I got the combustion glyph and will swap back to nether tempest. There is one thing I am wondering - invocation gives 25% more damage, higher than rune of power, but I am seeing every mage with rune and every mage is doing more damage?!?
    Schwarzkopf, I don't think my gear is that bad, and I did forget to mention the most puzzling fact - when I switch to frost spec, even with the all the crit, I do like 10k more damage!!!
    One more thing I want to ask you guys - I am using fire blast when I have heating up proc, should I instead use it every time its off cooldown?

  7. #7
    Field Marshal Portdealer's Avatar
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    Expertise also gives hit for casters, so you can reforge things with hit already on it into expertise for an extra hit boost to cap, so you have more gear to reforge into crit.

  8. #8
    NT compared to LB is a dps loss on single target fights, a minor loss, but still a loss and that is not even taking into account the problems with refreshing NT vs the easy(er) refresh on LB.

    Open with: Fireball Prepull, Bomb. Spam Fireball till Crit. Use Inferno Blast. U now have a pyro proc.

    Do you use PoM? If you do, PoM.

    Alter Time.
    Prepull you precast a Pyroblast not a fireball....
    You preferably have a 10 second countdown prepull assuming the best talent Invocation.
    -10.0 Evocate
    -04.5 Mirror Image
    -03.0 Pop Potion
    -02.9 Cast Pyroblast
    +00.3 Release pyroblast
    +00.4 Cast Living bomb
    Fireball spam
    - Get HU
    - IB > HS
    - Get HU
    Fireball > PoM > Altertime > !PB > !PB ** > Alter time > !PB > !PB **

    ** may net you bonus !PB due tot the presence of both HU and HS.

    Also not quite that important to keep up Mage Bombs, Pyromaniac lasts 15 seconds while LB does 11 - ish. It is ok to let it drop of while you are in the Pyro sequence because the refresh of LB is going to cost you ignite ticks thus Combustion damage.

    About your gemming...
    Make a choice, go for secondary stats or go for intellect, dont mix the two IMHO..... Either use the 80 int/160 crit in reds and the 320 crit in yellows or use 160 int in reds and 80 int/160 crit in yellows
    Same for that blue gem, 80 int/160 hit or 160 crit/160 hit??

    Leg enchant missing FFS you are a tailor !
    Shoulder enchant
    Expertise enchant on your gloves to free up some hit rating to forge to crit

    Reforging, your chest and ring you are reforging Crit to Hit, instead mastery to Hit

  9. #9
    Chant your sholders
    Get spellthread for legs
    There is a better wrist enchant
    Gem for crit:

    That means yellows are crit, reds are int/crit (or if you are having trouble with hitcap expertise or expertise/crit), and blues are hit crit. Dont gem int.

    If you got money comin out ur ass, buy relic of Yulon, it is BiS until heroic sha of fear.

    Use nether tempest for all single target, Living bomb for: Stone guards, Garalon, Wind Lord, Amber Shaper, you can on empress it depends on what u want, and that is IT. Use NT for everything else, yes even garajal spirit realm, you can dot a whole bunch more shit and the explosions from living bomb wont hit others meaning it uses weights for single target.

    Im not going to look through your reforges, and what Im going to say will assuredly draw the scorn of others, but it works great for me. Hitcap, then haste softcap (7.5% or 3.75%, 3.75% is NT only), then crit, then mastery, then wasted haste.

    Get something that shows you what your ignites are going to tick for (this is as simple as setting up a weakaura to tell you the stack on your ignite debuff on the target), and then find out what you average, and try to combust at about double or more that ammount. On average on a fight like garajal, i sit at 20-25k, and combust at over 60k, with the occasional 100k+

    Try to use Alter time when you have all your cds up AND you have a pyro proc, cast fireball and then use pyro at the end of the fireball and then hit altertime a second time and insta another pyro. That should be a good place to start for bigger combusts. I notice you have presence of mind, I crit enough anymore that i really havent found it usefull, but if you wanna use it, when you are going to hit alter time, hit presence of mind first so you can do the pyro pyro pyro pyro trick. I also suggest temporal shield for everything except questing.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-24 at 03:12 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by namliam View Post
    NT compared to LB is a dps loss on single target fights, a minor loss, but still a loss and that is not even taking into account the problems with refreshing NT vs the easy(er) refresh on LB.
    No, no, no. NT is far better single target, to the tune of about 30%. On target dummys with all the same buffs, as fire, NT did 60k per 10s and living bomb did 45k, including the explosion.

    As long as you refresh NT on or after the second to last tick it will add those ticks to the next duration, meaning about 1.4 seconds previous. Also, you can refresh living bomb before the last tick and it will still explode. Not sure if i just discovered this recently and everyone knows, or that im on the edge with this info. If you dont believe me go try it.
    Last edited by Grumash; 2012-11-24 at 09:14 AM.

  10. #10
    Yes you can refresh living bomb in the last tick and get the explosion, it has been this way since late Cata....
    Living bomb allows you to refresh it in the last 2.666 seconds (roughly) and get the explosion (i.e. 100% uptime)
    For NT to have 100% uptime you need to refresh it before it drops off in the last tick, in 12.05 seconds I am getting 13 ticks i.e. 0.93 seconds to a tick... Good luck getting that perfectly refreshed, yes if you refresh during the tick you get that one tick extra on the next one full duration, BUT if you refresh it on 2 ticks before the end you still only get the 1 additional tick and lose the last tick. Tried and tested on a dummy, when perfectly refreshed I get 26 ticks, when refreshed before the 12th tick only 25.
    So you always lose some dps on NT, either refreshing too early, or letting it drop off, no way you can get it right a lot of the time at 0.9 second window to do so.

    Nether Tempest says 53.365 over 12.05 seconds, or 4.429 dps, because of the difficulty of getting it right, lets assume 90% accuracy for 3.986 dps
    Living bomb says 24.540 + 24.657 = 49.197 over 11.12 seconds or 4.424 dps ... because of the easier getting it right lets assume 95% accuracy for 4.202

    Same for Frost bomb, 9.3 second cooldown for 58.090 damage. but add 1.4 second cast time and a fault margin of 1 fireball you get 9.3 + 1.4 + 2 = 12.7 or lets say 14 seconds with moving and shit, since frost bomb does have a cast time while LB/NT do not.
    So 58.090 / 14 = 4149
    Or even 58.090 / 13 = 4468, or better yet if you can cast it 5 times per minute.

    Which makes Frost bomb > Living bomb > Nether Tempest assuming you play near perfect on CD etc...
    While it will rather quickly slip to Frost bomb = Living bomb > Nether tempest on single target.

    I posted a table like thingy here:
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...2#post19192152
    Feel free to debate that table there

    The reason NT will inflate a bit easier on random tests is because of
    1) NT has more ticks thus more chance to crit, however if you have exactly 25% crit chance after 4 full rotations of each dot you may expect each tick/explosion to have crit one time and it should average out to the same number-ish
    2) Niether NT or Living bomb tick for 10 seconds, its 12 and 11 seconds, so while NT does tick for more damage with each application, it does take a second more to do that damage. Assuming you play it perfectly spot on (which IMHO is impossible) NT > Living bomb by 5 dps (see above).
    But if you play frost bomb perfectly 58090 / 10.7 = 5.428, which would make single target "perfection" FB > NT > LB

  11. #11
    Bloodsail Admiral spaace's Avatar
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    It's been proven many times that NT is far superior to LB in single target, and crushes frost. (frost wins on aoe)

    It's been said many times... crit is hands down top of the food chain. Always pick the gem with crit.. 320, 80Int/160, 160Hit/160


    In the end, it really comes down to how good you are...
    How you swap to mobs.. what you are casting, where you are standing...

    logs would help out to find out whats wrong
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  12. #12
    My math says differently, what proof where says that NT is so much better than LB single target?
    Again lets centralize this information ...

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...2#post19192152

    and crit hands down being the top of the food chain..... I believe Sims put crit at 55% of Intellect so the difference of 1 intellect to 2 crit is not that big to say hands down.... On top of that SimC has some issues working with combustion and POM as well as working alter time that I still am trying to work out..... Still assuming SimC is right the 10% extra on the gems is nice.... with 7 gem slots on my gear I am changing roughly 7*60 intellect for 7*120 Crit or normalized I am gaining 7 * 10% "intellect" or 7 * 6 intellect = 43 intellect....
    Compare 43 intellect gained to your current stats on your gear of ~15000 intellect... 0.33% change, seriously this cannot be as huge as people "parrot" it to be. Either you believe SimC and go secondary stats (Hit/Crit) as long as you dont reforge Hit to Haste...
    Or you stick to the old school and gem Intellect as a priority.... just do not mix and match your gems ....
    Only place that you might mix is when you are on the threshold of starting to reforge Hit to Haste, becuase all your gear already has crit on it.

    Also I cant seem to get simc to hold HS to fish for an additional HU while IB is on CD.
    Last edited by namliam; 2012-11-25 at 08:26 AM.

  13. #13
    Legendary! Polarthief's Avatar
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    Talents: PoM's your best choice, make sure to swap to scorch for heavily mobile fights (Will and Garalon). Why on Azeroth are you using Frost Bomb?! Swap to Nether Tempest and use Living Bomb for Cleave Fights (Stone Guards, Garalon, Empress, Protectors).

    Enchants/Gems: Why no Shoulder enchant??? Why so many Brilliant gems??? Why Veiled purple gems?
    Gemming Pattern: CRIT IS EVERYTHING. Red = Potent Orange (Crit Int). Yellow = Smooth Yellow (Crit). Blue = Pierced Green (Crit Hit). Prismatic Sockets (Your belt, as well as Glove/Bracer if Blacksmith) = Smooth Yellow (Crit)

    Gear: Trinket 2 is disgusting. /Jealous that you're way undergeared compared to me, but you still have a better weapon >_>; (Fuck RNG!)

    Stats/Reforging: Due to gear, you're obviously reforging INTO Hit a lot, which hurts your stats. Your Crit and Haste are waaaaaay too low. Your Haste Plateau (Until later) is 3056. Anything past that is pretty wasted. Other than that, you want as much Crit as you can get.

    Conclusion: Frost Bomb sucks. Never use it unless you're doing stuff that requires vast amounts of AoE (Which = 0 fights [At least in Normal] in Tier 14). Replace with NT unless you need Cleave (which you go with LB, obviously). Your Int gems are really, REALLY hurting your crit levels, and your missing shoulder enchant is also hurting you pretty bad. Not having 3056 Haste is really bad as well. You also need an Int proc trinket (Light of the Cosmos from Elegon or Darkmoon Faire trinket from Serpents Deck). Your gear overall is quite low and until you replace all your blues, you're going to have a Haste/Crit problem.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-25 at 08:59 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Narutoninja View Post
    Thanks for the detailed explanation Faylo! I got the combustion glyph and will swap back to nether tempest. There is one thing I am wondering - invocation gives 25% more damage, higher than rune of power, but I am seeing every mage with rune and every mage is doing more damage?!?
    Schwarzkopf, I don't think my gear is that bad, and I did forget to mention the most puzzling fact - when I switch to frost spec, even with the all the crit, I do like 10k more damage!!!
    One more thing I want to ask you guys - I am using fire blast when I have heating up proc, should I instead use it every time its off cooldown?
    Unless you're Arcane, Rune of Power is just disgusting unless it's a specific fight where you can stand still (like Spiritbinder and... ... Feng?).

    You do more damage as Frost because your gear really is that bad. Too many of your reforged stats are going to Hit instead of Crit/Haste. Your Haste is also HALF of the needed breakpoint.

    Also, if you don't have someone in your raid providing the 5% Spell Haste buff (Elemental Shaman, Balance Druid, Shadow Priest, or Hunter if they use a Sporebat), you'll need a lot more than 3056, so tell your raid leader to stop being super bad.

    Fire Blast (or rather Inferno Blast) is a tricky subject. In the general single-target damage, yes, you only use it when you need a crit. If you just used Combustion and you can spread it to nearby enemies, immediately IB after it.
    Last edited by Polarthief; 2012-11-25 at 01:59 PM.

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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    Conclusion: Frost Bomb sucks.
    Which is based on what?

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Narutoninja View Post
    Hi guys,
    Swapped nether tempest for frost bomb later, because I though not being able to keep track of the debuff on boss makes me cast it too early or too late so took frost bomb so I can cast it every time is off cooldown.
    I wondered on that. I recommend to you the Addon "Aura Frames". You can set up a filter, so only debuffs/buffs which are relevant for you show up. This way you won't "miss" if the Debuff is on the boss.
    Somebody got a Dark Intent and a Focus Magic for Tarecgosa and me? ;-)

  16. #16
    Mechagnome jtmzac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagicSN View Post
    I wondered on that. I recommend to you the Addon "Aura Frames". You can set up a filter, so only debuffs/buffs which are relevant for you show up. This way you won't "miss" if the Debuff is on the boss.
    I just set my target unit frame to only show my debuffs and enlarge them. It really just takes practice to get used to refreshing dots. It took me a while to get used to it coming from arcane but I very rarely miss refreshing nether tempest now.

    Also don't ever forget about your focus frame. It's extremely useful and you can always make macros that target your focus target instead of your current target. I have a second nether tempest that I use to keep it up on garalons body while I'm on his legs.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    Talents: PoM's your best choice, make sure to swap to scorch for heavily mobile fights (Will and Garalon). Why on Azeroth are you using Frost Bomb?! Swap to Nether Tempest and use Living Bomb for Cleave Fights (Stone Guards, Garalon, Empress, Protectors).
    If you are trying to cleave on protectors you are doing it wrong, also at higher crit levels PoM is not a dps gain over scorch, as you always have some ammount of movement in a fight, except maybe garajal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    Enchants/Gems: Why no Shoulder enchant??? Why so many Brilliant gems??? Why Veiled purple gems?
    Gemming Pattern: CRIT IS EVERYTHING. Red = Potent Orange (Crit Int). Yellow = Smooth Yellow (Crit). Blue = Pierced Green (Crit Hit). Prismatic Sockets (Your belt, as well as Glove/Bracer if Blacksmith) = Smooth Yellow (Crit)
    I would add that gemming expertise in red/prismatic sockets can be very beneficial if you struggle with hitcap (which you do).

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    Conclusion: Frost Bomb sucks.
    I am more inclined to believe namliam, who actually has used math. I will have to go retest to see what the average damage per tick is over time, but im wagering he is correct and you are talking out your ass. Note this doesn't mean frost bomb is optimal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    Unless you're Arcane, Rune of Power is just disgusting unless it's a specific fight where you can stand still (like Spiritbinder and... ... Feng?).
    You sure love your generalisations. Rune of power has its uses, as it lowers downtime for when you need consistant damage over a period longer than 45s (think elegon spark phases, protectors heroic on add duty, etc etc) but does sacrifice some mobility. I will note that when you can sacrifice the mobility, rune of power works out to be a SLIGHT dps gain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    Fire Blast (or rather Inferno Blast) is a tricky subject. In the general single-target damage, yes, you only use it when you need a crit. If you just used Combustion and you can spread it to nearby enemies, immediately IB after it.
    To refine this, you use it when you had a heating up proc, saying 'when you need a crit' is not specific enough. Some people will sit on a HS proc and wait for a HU proc again or IB for another so they can fireball instapyro with both buffs for the very high chance of getting another pyro. I personally dont wait for IB to come up again, as it doesnt hit that hard, and so i dont waste GCDs on IB unless it will generate a pyro.

  18. #18
    I beg to differ on the slight dps gain of RoP vs Invocation, in theory yes flat theory.

    In reality, LB/Ignite/Pyro dots keep roling while evocating...
    All your spells hit harder while you are hitting, resulting in a bigger combustion
    Comparing the up/down time of the two and concluding RoP comes out slightly ahead is way to quick of a conclusion.

    I do sit on my HS proc for exactly 2 Fireballs immediatly after using IB.
    Doing so grants me the chance to proc HU and increase the chance of getting (another) HS while IB is on cd.
    After the 2 fireballs I consume my HS to make sure I can guarantee my next HS...

    Of if I have to refresh my LB, so I know the HS only FB>!PB wont consume my precious HU. so that it becomes FB>LB>!PB>IB (if needed because the FB Critted)

  19. #19
    I do also use Invocation and it's way better then RoP, BUT you have to get used to it. I think the biggest problem with Invocation is that it doesn't have UI support. Maybe one should ask for this in the official forums. Watching the buff bar is not an option. I created myself a PowerAura that shows the duration, while switching to red if I don't have the buff. This works really great
    After that I did the same to track CDs for trinkets and how long the trinkets didn't proc and stuff I can really recommend powerauras

  20. #20
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    Having had similar gear (only *real* difference being I was using Relic of Yu'lon instead of Vision - sadly Vision is eluding me) until this weekend, I'm going to say that the main issue you'll have is building ignites into decent Combustions.

    At the time of writing, the only *issue* I can see is that you're using Frost Bomb - BOTH Living Bomb and NT are better for 1-3 targets. If you have problems keep up 1 DoT, then realistically there's the beginning of the issue.
    I don't want to be harsh, but if you can't keep track of one debuff on the target it's probably best to go back to dummies and just get the rotation down to muscle memory, so even if you don't have an addon to track the debuff you can begin to learn when it's near dropping off anyway.

    Realistically, with your gear, you should be looking to pull 50-65K single target (RNG varying) without too much difficulty; but from what I can gather it really seems to be more of a "L2P" issue than anything. Talents will make a small difference, sure, but they won't make up 20K. While talents may be 'sub-optimal' (for example, out of personal preference I use both Incanter's Ward and Living Bomb near-permanently), they do not amount to such a steep loss or gain.

    I'd say run LFR loads (for a better learning experience) or just sit at dummies and get used to using your rotation, learn how to build ignites properly into your Combustions and you'll start to see an increase.

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