since when did raiders give up so damn easily

**MasterOfKnees** · 2012-12-10, 08:51 PM

It happened sometime in Wrath. I remember the first time seeing something like that was in ToC, in a PuG of course. We wipe to Twin Val'kyrs once and everyone leaves. It's been like this ever since. No wipes in BWD until Nefarian, everyone leaves on first wipe. No wipes until Putricide, one wipe, game over.

This week takes the cake above all else though. I joined a Firelands HC, we just downed Staghelm, and all of a sudden some random dude who hadn't spoken once before that just said "I don't think we can do Ragnaros", and with that everyone left. I've never been as mind blown before, I haven't seen people be so... I don't even know what to say, it just blew my mind so much. I mean, we had a good group, and we didn't even fucking try? Everyone just follows it? It's just... NO.

**Outofmana** · 2012-12-10, 10:17 PM

The newer people, since WotLK, just aren't used to any serious wiping. I wiped for 2 months, every single day, on C'thun (and on my toilet) with my guild in vanilla and there was nobody that wasn't fine with it. I don't care about wiping since then, kinda used to it.

As the poster above said it happened sometime in WotLK. And these days even when you go old raids / achievement runs w/e with some people. All it takes is ONE wipe to kill the group.

**SunShot** · 2012-12-10, 10:21 PM

Like title ''raider'' could mean something in wow

we all are raiders, no big deal

**Trubo** · 2012-12-10, 10:36 PM

Originally Posted by Novamh

so today i went into a group for DS 10 HC i have personally never done it on HC before and looked forward to getting DW HC achievement, all was going well and we got to ultraxion, at this point we had 0 wipes and only a couple of deaths, we start on ultraxion and we wipe because couple of people forgot about one of his abilities, all of a sudden half the raid doesnt have time anymore and starts calling everyone else shit and leaves the raid.

This isnt the first time i seen this kind of stuff happen but it is so frustrating to see people with attitudes like this. If everything just doesnt fall over and die for them they refuse to do it and then i come on here and see people complaining about how easy the game is (probably the same people who complain when they have a wipe) and its ruining the game.

/rant

Same thing happened with ICC when Cataclysm came out. The optimal players did the content while it was current and had little incentive to do it again, especially when they could be working on the new content. Even if they could be brought back to do this content, they're not likely willing to wipe repeatedly on what is trivial content due to gear and level increases just because the people most likely causing the wipes weren't willing to put in some effort into seeing how the fight was done while current. Using DS for mechanic failure examples:

Morchok - Stomp + Crystals

Slime boss (Yorsahj?) - Not knowing what abilities the boss gets from which slimes reach him

Orb boss (Zonozz?) - Not knowing how to bounce the ball as a raid, not knowing to kill or quickly kill adds during black phase

Hagara - Frostflake, Ice Tombs, Lightning Phase

Ultraxion - Fading Light has a varied duration (3-5 seconds I think on heroic), Heroic Will has a 5 second cooldown, not realizing that eating an Hour of Twilight will kill you if you have the debuff

Warmaster - Letting the ship die by not stacking for the big blast, or soaking little blasts. Not knowing that eating a small blast increases shadow damage taken for next X seconds, not killing both drakes before they take off, Shockwave, Warmaster's Roar, not killing the dragon first

Spine - Rolling, killing too many tentacles, not stacking bloods onto one amalgamation, not popping cds to kill tendon

Madness - Platform order, blistering tentacles, Bolt + Explosion, bloods

**Elgierro** · 2012-12-10, 10:37 PM

I stopped playing because i was raiding with a group of 10 "raiders", but in reality only half of those 10 where real raiders who took it serious (even with only limited playtime), the other halve where the people at the end of the dps meters with a noticable difference in performance, the tank that couldn't taunt, the healer that didn't prepare the right heals in time or generally the people who needed 20 wipes to understand instead of 5.

I think alot of guilds that raid normals have this kind of problem, else they wouldn't be raiding normals still i believe, or atleast they wouldn't be stuck on encounters that require everyone to perform at the same level instead of just 75%.

**Trubo** · 2012-12-10, 10:39 PM

Originally Posted by wariofan1

It happened sometime in Wrath. I remember the first time seeing something like that was in ToC, in a PuG of course. We wipe to Twin Val'kyrs once and everyone leaves. It's been like this ever since. No wipes in BWD until Nefarian, everyone leaves on first wipe. No wipes until Putricide, one wipe, game over.

This week takes the cake above all else though. I joined a Firelands HC, we just downed Staghelm, and all of a sudden some random dude who hadn't spoken once before that just said "I don't think we can do Ragnaros", and with that everyone left. I've never been as mind blown before, I haven't seen people be so... I don't even know what to say, it just blew my mind so much. I mean, we had a good group, and we didn't even fucking try? Everyone just follows it? It's just... NO.

Don't know how Pureblood Firehawk drop rates have changed since MoP. Used to be a 1% from normal in Cataclysm. If it's a heroic only 1% drop, not being able to kill heroic Rag is a waste of time for some people. Plus, only heroic Rag gives Firelord.

But to get a bit on topic; while first guilds are pretty extreme, consider how long it's taken them to clear content back in say, Naxx 40 or through TBC, and compare it to MSV, HoF, and ToES.

**Scubascythe** · 2012-12-10, 10:56 PM

Cause Fading light and eating 2 Hour of Twilights in a row are the only mechanics in DS where the extra healthpool and dps from MOP does not allow you to faceroll the boss.

I joined a pug doing H DS for some xmog on my new monk. Steamrolled the first 4 ignoring mechanics like crystals/los Morchok, correct ball bouncing Zonozz, streamrolled the ooze on Yorsahj and purple debuff explosions going off constantly, and failed miserably on both lightning and frost phase but just healed through the extra damage. At Ultrax after the first 4 wipes of the same people dying to their first fading light and claiming 'not to see their debuff or bossmod telling them about it', I left. Didn't want to waste my time.

I already downed H Madness back at 85 at 5% nerf and could tell these casuals had no chance of learning simple fight mechanics.

**HeedmySpeed** · 2012-12-11, 01:45 AM

When I saw "raider" I thought you were directing this question to players who actually raid end game content (excluding LFR of course, there's a reason there is a "normal" mode).

But this mentality has been prevalent in WoW since I can remember. People just don't think it's worth the time unless they one shot everything. Sometimes it's justifiable if the rest of the group are dismal players but most often it's the dismal players that can't be bothered to corpse run a few times.

I'm guilty of this sometimes, in fact, most of the time I'm too lazy to even start farming transmog gear. The thought of wiping in content that's trivial makes me sigh (hence why I don't do LFR).

But I don't think it's fair to call people who don't participate in guild progression, "raiders."

**PutressFIRST** · 2012-12-11, 09:23 PM

Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker

This is not exclusive to old content. This is what used to happen when pugs were more common (Like back when ICC was current). One death, everything falls apart.

People only want 100% success. It's why when people try and get people, they only want people well beyond needing content from what they want things from. "MUST HAVE ABSURD ilvl you could only get from doing this, + achievement from already doing this or NO PST"

---------- Post added 2012-11-23 at 11:51 PM ----------

Isn't there a very real possibility that people just weren't playing before then? Since when are people all exclusionary! Oh, right, this is the WoW community! Where it's assumed everyone has been playing forever, and new people do not exist, or count.

Failing to push one button that a popular addon (DBM) displays right in the middle of your screen without you having to do any work like actually macro/keybinding the button sequence itself would cause anyone to exclude people. Most if not all guilds expect people in their group to know the mechanics of a certain fight. Theres 90 million videos of "x" number of fights that basically hold your hand while they explain how to do said fight. I personally wouldn't just up and leave the group. I would however explain to the raid to take 1 second from tunnel visioning your pro-style dps and push a button so you don't die and cause a wipe, thats literally the fight....pushing a button, you do that and you basically win.

**Dubalicious** · 2012-12-11, 10:35 PM

Originally Posted by PutressFIRST

Failing to push one button that a popular addon (DBM) displays right in the middle of your screen without you having to do any work like actually macro/keybinding the button sequence itself would cause anyone to exclude people. Most if not all guilds expect people in their group to know the mechanics of a certain fight.

Find me a raid group that NEVER had a death to not pushing the button on heroic (whether it be hitting it too late, hitting it when they WEREN'T supposed to, etc.) and I'll show you a raid group comprised of 10/25 robots.

Guilds are understanding of minimal mistakes, PuGs should be just as understanding, if not just flat out accepting that some mistakes will happen.

**Vayshan** · 2012-12-11, 10:42 PM

Well.. I wouldn't call anyone who don't have the ds hc achievements a raider.

Well... I wouldn't call anyone who didn't have the "Herald of the Titans" title when it was relevant a raider. Ever (/sarcasm). Also, DS is absolutely thé raid to judge and compare anyone by how good they are... right. Tbh I don't take anyone seriously who thinks the DS fiasco was a good raid to compare skill with, at all.

Your turn, pro raider!

**Drdraenei** · 2012-12-12, 01:29 PM

I've not done DS heroic, I came back to the game after taking Cataclysm off and didn't do it, does that mean I am not a raider, even though I am raiding MoP content when it is relevant.

**Danishgirl** · 2012-12-12, 01:57 PM

Originally Posted by Vayshan

Well... I wouldn't call anyone who didn't have the "Herald of the Titans" title when it was relevant a raider. Ever (/sarcasm). Also, DS is absolutely thé raid to judge and compare anyone by how good they are... right. Tbh I don't take anyone seriously who thinks the DS fiasco was a good raid to compare skill with, at all.

Your turn, pro raider!

Don't even know who you're quoting but I think, the reason why he/she used DS as example, is cause that's what we're talking about. Ultraxion in DS and not in Ulduar^^

**Terridon** · 2012-12-12, 02:05 PM

Originally Posted by Danishgirl

Don't even know who you're quoting but I think, the reason why he/she used DS as example, is cause that's what we're talking about. Ultraxion in DS and not in Ulduar^^

Think the discussion overall evolved into "what defines you as a raider". The only reason there is so much talk about DS is that a lot could take it in LFR and now think they're hardcore raiders, because they did it on 4-10 chars. Or because it got nerfed enough for a lot of casual raiders to be in there, while the hardcore ran screaming from it ;D

Thread: since when did raiders give up so damn easily

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