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  1. #21
    Scarab Lord Azutael's Avatar
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    Failing in older raids is because people think they can ignore mechanics with their new high lvl chars that are clearly out gearing the content etc. Happens all the time.
    Not much you can do about it if people aren't willing to take 5 mins to fresh up their knowledge on fights etc.

    Claiming you need to have cleared everything on heroic (when it was current/relevant content) to be called a raider is simply ridiculous though.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathquoi View Post
    And how does that statement apply to LFR? Under what authority are you declaring LFR people to not be raiders?
    The fact that you can do it in your sleep with almost no communication. LFR is for people who are not able to be "raiders". Blizzard has pretty much stated that themselves.

    People who do LFR are "Raiding". But again the term "Raiders" means they are a set group of people who are pushing current content.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proberly View Post
    Well.. I wouldn't call anyone who don't have the ds hc achievements a raider.

    Obviously the majority who didn't raid during that content are those who can't be arsed to put alot of time in raiding. And that's the result you get when such people want to faceroll old content and then wipe.
    So if I left in the first month or so of T11, just afterI hit 85, and just came back for MoP. Now, I'm doing MSV with my guild now, but am I not a raider since I don't have any Cata raiding achievements, even though I wasn't there to get them when they were current?
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  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    Any time 6+ people go into a PvE Raid instance, they're raiders.

    Anyone saying otherwise is just drawing an arbitrary line. See the following examples:
    "If you didn't get World First Dragon Soul Heroic, you're not a raider" is one extreme.
    "If you didn't get Server First Dragon Soul Heroic..."
    "If you didn't clear Dragon Soul Heroic..."
    "If you didn't clear Dragon Soul Normal..."
    "If you didn't clear Dragon Soul LFR..."

    Draw the line where you like, cause everyone will just see it as trying to put yourself above others. Truth is, there is no line.
    I would define a "Raider" the same way I would define a "PVPer"

    If you spend most of your time doing PVP or PVP related things. You're a PVPer.
    If you spend most of your time doing raids, and raid related activities. You're a raider.

    By this logic, a "bad" raider, is still in fact, a raider. a bad pvper, is still a pvper.

  5. #25
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danishgirl View Post
    Yes it means something, when the title of the thread is pointed directly towards raiders and in fact what your experienced had nothing to do with "real raiders".
    The distinction is that his raid was a PuG and not a guild run, and not that you're better than the players he was raiding with.
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  6. #26
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    I think raiders are the people who regularly try to kill bosses in a raid instance that is content released in the ongoing expansion. If a guild was progressing BoT in 4.3 regularly, say once a week, I'd call them raiders.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by nyc81991 View Post
    The fact that you can do it in your sleep with almost no communication. LFR is for people who are not able to be "raiders". Blizzard has pretty much stated that themselves.

    People who do LFR are "Raiding". But again the term "Raiders" means they are a set group of people who are pushing current content.
    I still don't understand why you've decided that you get to make this determination. You are still in a raid group in a raid instance killing raid bosses at an appropriate level.

  8. #28
    Pandaren Monk Otiswhitaker's Avatar
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    This is not exclusive to old content. This is what used to happen when pugs were more common (Like back when ICC was current). One death, everything falls apart.

    People only want 100% success. It's why when people try and get people, they only want people well beyond needing content from what they want things from. "MUST HAVE ABSURD ilvl you could only get from doing this, + achievement from already doing this or NO PST"

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-23 at 11:51 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Danishgirl View Post
    No. Would you call a lvl 90 who goes to BT a raider as well? No you wouldn't and I have to agree, that people who didn't set foot inside DS on heroic when it was current - even with 35% buff, aren't raiders. They're casuals or non raiders if you like but they aren't actual raiders.

    Had I for some reason joined this run and people kept failing at clicking 1 button, I would have left too. It's not just about "giving up", it is likely that some of these people already did this content and just couldn't be arsed wiping cause other people were bad.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-24 at 12:42 AM ----------



    Yes it means something, when the title of the tread is pointed directly towards raiders and in fact what your experienced had nothing to do with "real raiders".

    Isn't there a very real possibility that people just weren't playing before then? Since when are people all exclusionary! Oh, right, this is the WoW community! Where it's assumed everyone has been playing forever, and new people do not exist, or count.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathquoi View Post
    I still don't understand why you've decided that you get to make this determination. You are still in a raid group in a raid instance killing raid bosses at an appropriate level.
    I am not making this determination. It is something that has been true to anyone who has played since vanilla. It is simply terminology that people have used for a very long time.

    LFR does not require skill or coordination. People who do LFR are not pushing progression for any length of time. Hence why people who do Lfr are "Raiding" but are not "Raiders".

  10. #30
    There is a difference between those who enjoy or are willing to put effort towards progression and those who just want faceroll content and collect rewards for putting in their time. Apparently on the bases of the Official forums and Blizzard, the later is the majority and the "raiders" are the minority.

    A PuG run for old content is likely to be filled with players who have not experience that content at that difficulty level and even if they have, there is a good chance that they was carried from a previous run and still dont know whats going on. I used to get called in a lot for the last few bosses in Ulduar for the mount achievement to be a carry and especially for Yogg where you have over half the raid being told to sit in a corner while the players who know how to avoid the bad are handling the first phase and even the brain room and even then you are going to get wipes because there are players who cant follow directions and work together as a team like soloists who are only there for the rewards.
    Last edited by nekobaka; 2012-11-24 at 12:03 AM.

  11. #31
    Pandaren Monk sibut's Avatar
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    Well, I'll use myself as an example. I would only consider myself to be a "raider" when I'm in a guild that does actual progression raiding. I did that through several xpacs competitively and now I don't anymore. Right now I hit up LFR on 2 toons a week and I certainly don't consider myself a raider at this point. I mean, we're really arguing semantics here, but really in my experience most people don't use the term "raider" to refer to someone who does part of a LFR run once every week or two, or gets into a pug that can go 1/6 normal MSV. By a strict definition would that person be considered a raider? Probably, but I don't think that's the most common definition.

  12. #32
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyc81991 View Post
    It is something that has been true to anyone who has played since vanilla.
    Because everything that happened in Vanilla must stay the same.
    Quote Originally Posted by nyc81991 View Post
    It is simply terminology that people have used for a very long time.
    With varying definitions based on personal progression.
    Quote Originally Posted by nyc81991 View Post
    LFR does not require skill or coordination.
    Garalon and Elegon say hello.
    Quote Originally Posted by nyc81991 View Post
    People who do LFR are not pushing progression for any length of time.
    Multiple hours of wiping or requeuing says otherwise.
    Quote Originally Posted by nyc81991 View Post
    Hence why people who do Lfr are "Raiding" but are not "Raiders".
    Says the player who's 4/6 MV Normal, wanting to distinguish themselves from the "non-raiders".

    Sorry, but, what you say doesn't make sense.
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  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by nyc81991 View Post
    I am not making this determination. It is something that has been true to anyone who has played since vanilla. It is simply terminology that people have used for a very long time.

    LFR does not require skill or coordination. People who do LFR are not pushing progression for any length of time. Hence why people who do Lfr are "Raiding" but are not "Raiders".
    So LFR people have been denied the title of Raider since Vanilla. Is that right? Interesting. I think you should possibly consider being less full of yourself.
    Last edited by Deathquoi; 2012-11-24 at 12:07 AM.

  14. #34
    ok clearly this thread has gone in the wrong direction...

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathquoi View Post
    So LFR people have been denied the title of Raider since Vanilla. Is that right? Interesting.
    No, The terminology for what a raider is has been in place since Vanilla.

    Blizzard themselves have said that LFR is for people who don't have the time to be raiders. If you want to argue with someone about it then send them an email.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-23 at 07:14 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    Because everything that happened in Vanilla must stay the same.

    With varying definitions based on personal progression.

    Garalon and Elegon say hello.

    Multiple hours of wiping or requeuing says otherwise.

    Says the player who's 4/6 MV Normal, wanting to distinguish themselves from the "non-raiders".

    Sorry, but, what you say doesn't make sense.
    What you are trying to argue is like saying that because you don't like the term "Dog" to describe a dog everyone who uses that term is wrong.

    And yes I am 4/6 normal MV with a casual guild. That is also still pushing current content. I am not a hard core raider anymore and haven't been since the end of Wotlk but that doesn't change the fact that what I'm doing is considered being a "raider". To be specific I am currently a Casual Raider.
    Last edited by nyc81991; 2012-11-24 at 12:15 AM.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by nyc81991 View Post
    No, The terminology for what a raider is has been in place since Vanilla.

    Blizzard themselves have said that LFR is for people who don't have the time to be raiders. If you want to argue with someone about it then send them an email.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-23 at 07:14 PM ----------



    What you are trying to argue is like saying that because you don't like the term "Dog" to describe a dog everyone who uses that term is wrong.

    And yes I am 4/6 normal MV with a casual guild. That is also still pushing current content. I am not a hard core raider anymore and haven't been since the end of Wotlk but that doesn't change the fact that what I'm doing is considered being a "raider". To be specific I am currently a Casual Raider.
    And that terminology has excluded LFR since vanilla? Basically you've made up a definition and you're trying to pretend that it's carved in stone.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathquoi View Post
    And that terminology has excluded LFR since vanilla? Basically you've made up a definition and you're trying to pretend that it's carved in stone.
    Are you intentionally not reading what I said? or are you just missing the actual point?

    I Said The terminology for what a raider is has been in place since Vanilla. Meaning the terminology of what a Raider is. LFR was not in Vanilla and has nothing to do with the definition.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by nyc81991 View Post
    Are you intentionally not reading what I said? or are you just missing the actual point?

    I Said The terminology for what a raider is has been in place since Vanilla. Meaning the terminology of what a Raider is.
    What you're saying is completely nonsensical. You have a definition of raider as someone that is pushing current content. Is LFR MV or HOF or Terrace NOT current content? Were people that were running MC when Naxx was out not raiders? Come on now.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathquoi View Post
    What you're saying is completely nonsensical. You have a definition of raider as someone that is pushing current content. Is LFR MV or HOF or Terrace NOT current content? Were people that were running MC when Naxx was out not raiders? Come on now.
    Again. LFR requires no thought. You aren't pushing content you are showing up to collect free gear.

    Blizzard has said it themselves, LFR is for people who can not be Raiders. You keep saying I am making this up when the company who makes the game says this.

    Your idea of what a raider is happens to be different than the term that is widely accepted.

    Also, People who raided Mc and Naxx Were raiders. Meaning past tense.

  20. #40
    The Patient
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    Quote Originally Posted by Novamh View Post
    its raiding, hence you are a raider...
    by that logic, does playing a basketball make you a player in the nba?
    or
    playing messing around on a piano make you a pianist?
    or
    does singing in the shower make you a singer??

    that kinda of logic is invalid because in order to be considered a raider, you have to be in a guild dedicated for it, and you also have to be willing to put in the time to raid.


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