since when did raiders give up so damn easily

[Deleted]

Seems to be a common issue. First we were on Spirit Kings HC, we wiped for 60-90 minutes. Had the last boss down to 40% after like 8-10 pulls. Yet people were all like "omg lets skip this". Really, I am used to spending weeks progressing, wiping to a boss for hours and hours. People nowadays seems to expect a boss to die after 30 mintues or its unkillable. "We lack the gear", no you don't lack the gear, your just terrible.

[TheWindWalker]

Seems to be a common issue. First we were on Spirit Kings HC, we wiped for 60-90 minutes. Had the last boss down to 40% after like 8-10 pulls.

I'm in a guild lax enough to be called "casual" in the bad way on forums like this and 10 pulls isn't a big deal for progression. Spending three hours straight doing Elegon before leaving for the night is annoying but not something to give up over. Besides, it's heroic. If you're not in a world's first aiming guild then you really should take a few days worth of attempts to get past the harder heroic bosses.

[ro9ue]

Raiders give up so easily because of LFR. Why do all this crap to down normal and heroic stuff when I can have a fun non stress inducing run, and down everything in 1-2 attempts and get pretty much the same gear. All in less time. Some people play for fun, some want to make it their life. There are a lot less of the latter.

[Dubalicious]

All I have gathered from this thread is that a raider can be someone who makes a livelihood gunning for world firsts, OR somebody who tries to pug year old content.

If you look at it that way, it's pretty easy to understand why "Raiders give up so easily" - it's because you're talking about the raiders who give up easily.

inb4 "Why do raiders NEVER give up?" thread pops up

[rayden54]

This is not exclusive to old content. This is what used to happen when pugs were more common (Like back when ICC was current). One death, everything falls apart.

Which, ironically, meant that a PuG actually had to be better than an organized group to clear the same number of bosses. The PuG had to one-shot everything. The organized group could wipe for nights on the same boss,

[Dubalicious]

Which, ironically, meant that a PuG actually had to be better than an organized group to clear the same number of bosses.

What a great point! When I used to (fairly) successfully pug 10 mans, I spent anywhere from an hour and a half to 2 hours just FORMING the group, knowing that one weak link would result in a terribly unsuccessful raid. Oh the disappointment when that awesome mage you found had dial-up internet =/ ("that mage" haunts me to this day! haha)

[Ragu4]

And why does Professor Oak sound like Tristan Taylor from Yu Gi Oh the abridged series now? But on topic, never had too much trouble with the whole giving up scenario, then again I only raided in BC and WOTLK, played Cata for bout a month and leveled my derp knight to 90 then got bored. For a breakdown in my wrath days: it was quite impossible to fail in naxx, so no issues there. Ulduar was different, due to sheer length most pug groups I was with ended up stopping during the antechamber, maybe two bosses in, normally hodir for a chance at some rare cache loot and Thorim cause it was easy (never did iron council with a pug), had some failures there but since most people liked the raid, again at least for me, most people stuck around. For me it started getting bad around ToC. Basically if the group failed at the worms, chances the raid breaks up right then and there. Failure at the yeti was normally ok, and the group stuck around. Second boss is a pushover, which is good because when we reached the champs I knew we were finishing, good morale boost that second boss. ICC, again it wasn't that people qq dropped, it was that people didn't want to deal with putricide or sindragosa. First four in like 45 minutes, then festergut and rotface, then the blood jersey shore douches, and finally venereal disease. If the group stuck it out that far then maybe we would try the blood bitch.

TL;DR, why does professor oak sound like tristian from YGOTAS and for me it was more about length then quitting.

P.S. You didn't pug BC raids cept Kara, for me again.

[Toxigen]

To answer the question in the title:

For the majority of players, since WotLK. That was the beginning of the "let's just wait until its nerfed" mentality.

Caveat: actually, we saw a little glimmer when people gave up on Sunwell when they announced they would have raid-wide nerfs because people were crying about M'uru being too hard. Folks that struggled through BT/Hyjal stood no chance in SWP, so instead of wiping night after night, they just sat back and waited because of the early nerf announcement.

[Deleted]

A raid is 10 - 40 people working together. I am yet to see that happen in LFR...

In LFR "every man for himself" rings a familiar bell.

[sosleapy]

Again. LFR requires no thought. You aren't pushing content you are showing up to collect free gear.

Blizzard has said it themselves, LFR is for people who can not be Raiders. You keep saying I am making this up when the company who makes the game says this.

Your idea of what a raider is happens to be different than the term that is widely accepted.

Also, People who raided Mc and Naxx Were raiders. Meaning past tense.

So I didn't care to read the rest but listen here elitest jerk my guild would use lfr when we couldn't find a couple ppl to fil the raid so I guess that made us non raiders?

[Terridon]

So I didn't care to read the rest but listen here elitest jerk my guild would use lfr when we couldn't find a couple ppl to fil the raid so I guess that made us non raiders?

How about reading?
You're not _not_ a raider the second you enter a lfr. But you are from just doing lfr :P

[BeneditaNBeatriz]

IF its a raid, you are raiding, so you are a raider. . .
What kind of raider , thats the difference.

[Deleted]

since Wotlk spoiled them

[Cybran]

its raiding, hence you are a raider...

HAHAAHAHAAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAANAHAHA.... No.

Raiding implies coordinated team effort to kill a boss who is at your current gear level. You just joined a group of random people.

[Deleted]

HAHAAHAHAAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAANAHAHA.... No.

Raiding implies coordinated team effort to kill a boss who is at your current gear level. You just joined a group of random people.

I wouldn't say "current gear level".
A group with for example iLvl 380 progressing in BoT in Cata would have also been classified as a raid group and as raiders.
However:
No, just clearing LFR doesn't make you a raider. That's complete nonsense and you will understand this if you've ever been in a raid group for more than one evening. There is minimal effort, no progression and nearly no teamwork / coordination in a LFR group.

[Najja]

Obviously my opinion doesn't mean anything to anyone but myself but I'll put my two cents in. I can write enough lines of code to make something that spits out my name when I input the letter 'Q'. Guess I should go add programmer to my resume. In my opinion, classifying yourself as a raider requires a certain level of effort. Destroying a lvl 60 raid with 5 of your friends doesn't really count as raiding, yes you are in a raid group, yes the instance you are in was considered a raid but you aren't playing the content as it was intended. You aren't raiding you're facerolling... Some people consider doing LFR makes them a raider but I would never consider myself a raider for going in and half assing my way through it. If I had to arbitrarily set a line it would be doing at least LFR for the expansion you are in, so doing any raid that is designed for the current level cap. Like I said I wouldn't personally consider myself a raider for doing it but I see it as a fair enough spot to draw a line.

[Deleted]

Seriously? People really consider themselves raiders while the only thing they do is LFR? Oh my god, I always thought those people wouldn't exist...

Currently, I'm NOT a raider. My old guild fell apart (cleared 8/8 DS hc at ~15%ish nerf with 2 raid nights a week, we started late with progression and whatnot but just so you know at what level of raider you could put me^^) and I joined a new one with the start of MoP only to realize that it's full of douches/noobs and left after the first few raids. Atm, the only thing I do, from a PvE perspective, is LFR and the occasional daily quest. This makes me a NON-raiding individual, period. LFR can't be and will never be (unless they change the very essence of it) considered raiding by any half-serious player.

[wariofan1]

It happened sometime in Wrath. I remember the first time seeing something like that was in ToC, in a PuG of course. We wipe to Twin Val'kyrs once and everyone leaves. It's been like this ever since. No wipes in BWD until Nefarian, everyone leaves on first wipe. No wipes until Putricide, one wipe, game over.

This week takes the cake above all else though. I joined a Firelands HC, we just downed Staghelm, and all of a sudden some random dude who hadn't spoken once before that just said "I don't think we can do Ragnaros", and with that everyone left. I've never been as mind blown before, I haven't seen people be so... I don't even know what to say, it just blew my mind so much. I mean, we had a good group, and we didn't even fucking try? Everyone just follows it? It's just... NO.

[Outofmana]

The newer people, since WotLK, just aren't used to any serious wiping. I wiped for 2 months, every single day, on C'thun (and on my toilet) with my guild in vanilla and there was nobody that wasn't fine with it. I don't care about wiping since then, kinda used to it.

As the poster above said it happened sometime in WotLK. And these days even when you go old raids / achievement runs w/e with some people. All it takes is ONE wipe to kill the group.

[Deleted]

Like title ''raider'' could mean something in wow we all are raiders, no big deal