1. #2101
    The law exists to smooth out inequalities in nature. If you piss me off I'm not allowed to beat you bloody despite the fact that nature provides me the tools to do so. I would hope that's the case anyway. You're not in Iran are you?
    Your rage issues are not analogous to human physiology.
    If the birth happens, the child is onlyan issue because of a unilateral decision made by the mother .
    This is not true in any way shape or form, you just think the options available to you are too bad.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rukentuts View Post
    "Bodily autonomy" is just a fancy word trying to disguise the fact the pregnancy is a reasonably expected consequence of sex.
    What is this load of shit?
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  2. #2102
    The Unstoppable Force Rukentuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    What is this load of shit?
    You make a compelling argument.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatOak View Post
    Hey, as a transabled, transethnic, non-binary, genderqueer, neo-communist, indoor-capable republican otherkin I am offended by your callous display of ignorance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eroginous View Post
    I wouldn't expect someone who thinks science provides proof to know that.

  3. #2103
    Moderator Northern Goblin's Avatar
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    If a father was ever given an opt out clause, it should be in the first trimester. That way the woman has either makes the choice to abort, set up for adoption or chooses to carry to term with the intent to raise as a single mother.

    I disagree with the notion the Father could just throw his arms up in the air at any point and go "Fuck it, I'm out." But giving the mother his wishes to not be a father, she makes an informed choice.

    Condoms break and people lie about using non visible means of birth control.

    And sure a vasectomy sounds great, if you aren't a young man who's living on a shoe string budget in his first couple of years out of school, or trying to get through college, and would love children later on in life when he's financially able to take care of them. Because anyone who takes a vasectomy with the goal that they'll get it reversed a few years down the line and everything will be fine is under severe wishful thinking.

    And before the "He had a choice, he didn't have to have sex." She had the choice too, she chose to have sex, therefore she made the choice to be potentially with a child that she'd have to raise alone. That terrible argument swings both ways, please stop using it.

    Also, less of the "deadbeat" line, do you call every woman who aborts or puts up for adoption because she didn't want to take care of a child a deadbeat?

    Again to reiterate, men should never be allowed to walk out the moment they feel like it, but have the right to declare their intentions early and let her make an informed choice on what she wants to do.

  4. #2104
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Women only have an option because to deny abortions would surrender bodily autonomy.
    Regardless of why she has the option, the fact is that the system currently holds a man responsible for the unilateral decision of a woman.

    She opted not to get an abortion, thus a child was born and the man is responsible

    When determining responsibility, you don't skip the most recent and relevant decision when deciding who's to blame.

    Say you're designing a car. The engineer says "I don't think this car should be produced". The CEO says "FUCK IT! WE'RE DOING IT LIVE!" and ships the car.

    10 months down the line there's a fucking disaster with the cars exploding. You don't get to lay blame with the engineer who disagreed with the decision to produce the car.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-27 at 05:48 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Fengore View Post
    If a father was ever given an opt out clause, it should be in the first trimester. That way the woman has either makes the choice to abort, set up for adoption or chooses to carry to term with the intent to raise as a single mother.

    I disagree with the notion the Father could just throw his arms up in the air at any point and go "Fuck it, I'm out." But giving the mother his wishes to not be a father, she makes an informed choice.


    Also, condoms break, people lie about using non visible means of birth control.

    And sure a vasectomy sounds great, if you aren't a young man who's living on a shoe string budget in his first couple of years out of school, or trying to get through college, and would love children later on in life when he's financially able to take care of them. Because anyone who takes a vasectomy with the goal that they'll get it reversed a few years down the line and everything will be fine is under severe wishful thinking.


    And before the "He had a choice, he didn't have to have sex." She had the choice too, she chose to have sex, therefore she made the choice to be potentially with a child that she'd have to raise alone. That terrible argument swings both ways, please stop using it.


    Again to reiterate, men should never be allowed to walk out the moment they feel like it, but have the right to declare their intentions early and let her make an informed choice on what she wants to do.

    And less of the deadbeat line, do you call every woman who aborts or puts up for adoption because she didn't want to take care of a child a deadbeat?
    Holy shit thank you

    Someone goddamn gets it.
    Last edited by Laize; 2012-11-27 at 05:50 AM.

  5. #2105
    Quote Originally Posted by Rukentuts View Post
    You make a compelling argument.
    No, seriously, what you wrote makes absolutely zero sense. Bodily autonomy is a basic human right.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  6. #2106
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    This is not true in any way shape or form, you just think the options available to you are too bad.
    There are no options for the man once the child is conceived.

  7. #2107
    Moderator Northern Goblin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    What is this load of shit?
    If you're not going to engage in the discussion...

  8. #2108
    The Unstoppable Force Rukentuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    No, seriously, what you wrote makes absolutely zero sense. Bodily autonomy is a basic human right.
    You mean the right they exercised when they had sex?
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatOak View Post
    Hey, as a transabled, transethnic, non-binary, genderqueer, neo-communist, indoor-capable republican otherkin I am offended by your callous display of ignorance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eroginous View Post
    I wouldn't expect someone who thinks science provides proof to know that.

  9. #2109
    Legendary! darenyon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    The law exists to smooth out inequalities in nature. If you piss me off I'm not allowed to beat you bloody despite the fact that nature provides me the tools to do so. I would hope that's the case anyway. You're not in Iran are you?

    If the birth happens, the child is only an issue because of a unilateral decision made by the mother.
    which means she should recieve preferential custody right?

  10. #2110
    Regardless of why she has the option, the fact is that the system currently holds a man responsible for the unilateral decision of a woman.
    There are many decisions on the way to a child being born, some of which are up to the man and some up to the woman, some up to both. All of them have to be made. A man could get a vasectomy and now he's made the unilateral decision regarding children by your reasoning.
    She opted not to get an abortion, thus a child was born and the man is responsible
    The man consented to an activity that can result in children. He's already responsible for the outcomes of that consent.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  11. #2111
    Quote Originally Posted by darenyon View Post
    which means she should recieve preferential custody right?
    If the man shirks responsibility for the child then he's forfeiting rights too. She absolutely receives preferential custody in that case.

  12. #2112
    The Unstoppable Force Rukentuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    The man consented to an activity that can result in children. He's already responsible for the outcomes of that consent.
    And no matter how many times you repeat it, it still continually ignores the other side of the coin.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatOak View Post
    Hey, as a transabled, transethnic, non-binary, genderqueer, neo-communist, indoor-capable republican otherkin I am offended by your callous display of ignorance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eroginous View Post
    I wouldn't expect someone who thinks science provides proof to know that.

  13. #2113
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolercaust View Post
    There are no options for the man once the child is conceived.
    There are many options prior.
    "Bodily autonomy" would actually dictate letting the pregnancy run its course like nature intended.
    Yeah, you're still not making any sense. We have the right to determine what we do with our bodies. That's why women get to terminate.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  14. #2114
    Quote Originally Posted by Fengore View Post
    And before the "He had a choice, he didn't have to have sex." She had the choice too, she chose to have sex, therefore she made the choice to be potentially with a child that she'd have to raise alone. That terrible argument swings both ways, please stop using it.
    Didn't even think of that. Good form.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    There are many options prior.
    We're not talking about prior, we're talking about during. Prior to conception the point is moot because both parties have birth control options available to them, but nevertheless all of these options can fail.

  15. #2115
    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    If the man shirks responsibility for the child then he's forfeiting rights too. She absolutely receives preferential custody in that case.
    A guy who isn't even interesting in raising his child isn't giving anything up by forfeiting rights to the child that he has no interest in. All he's doing is saddling the mother with more burden.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  16. #2116
    Moderator Northern Goblin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    The man consented to an activity that can result in children. He's already responsible for the outcomes of that consent.
    She consented to the activity too, yet has options (non biological) to avoid that responsibility.

    They both undertook the activity, one of them comes out of it with choices.

  17. #2117
    And before the "He had a choice, he didn't have to have sex." She had the choice too, she chose to have sex, therefore she made the choice to be potentially with a child that she'd have to raise alone. That terrible argument swings both ways, please stop using it.
    its not a terrible argument because the two aren't in an equal position. The woman can abort because its her body. She gets an extra choice because she's the one who's body is being effected.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  18. #2118
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    There are many decisions on the way to a child being born, some of which are up to the man and some up to the woman, some up to both. All of them have to be made. A man could get a vasectomy and now he's made the unilateral decision regarding children by your reasoning.

    The man consented to an activity that can result in children. He's already responsible for the outcomes of that consent.
    Again, because I think this analogy is appropriate I'll say it again.

    If there's a car company and they're all in it to make a car. If the engineer goes to the CEO and says "I don't like this car. We shouldn't ship it." and the CEO says "fuck you we're doing this" and 10 months down the line the cars begin blowing up on the highway, whose responsibility is it? Do we look at the CEO who greenlit the decision (Whose decision was final) or the engineer who must have had a hand in it but vehemently disagreed with the decision?

  19. #2119
    Moderator Northern Goblin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darenyon View Post
    which means she should recieve preferential custody right?
    If the man wants no part of it, absolutely 100% yes.

    He chooses to forfeit all rights.

  20. #2120
    Quote Originally Posted by Fengore View Post
    She consented to the activity too, yet has options (non biological) to avoid that responsibility.

    They both undertook the activity, one of them comes out of it with choices.
    Only one of them has an option after conception because only one of them is actually carrying the child.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

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