1. #2281
    Moderator Northern Goblin's Avatar
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    Men can be raped in various ways, as long as it's non consensual, it's rape.

    One of the notorious cases is a guy at a party passed out drunk, and she took advantage in his sleep. He can't say no and his body reacted naturally. Male arousal is not a defence argument of "He clearly wanted it!" against rape. That's up there with "the body has means to shut itself down" in the history of utterly stupid things said.

  2. #2282
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    That 40% female board members policy is bullshit. I can't believe Sweden actually went through with it.
    I'm not sure we have, is it finalized? Our government has been against it from the start. Our "gender equality" minister Nyamko Sabuni has said "no thanks" on several occasions. Of course if the EU voted in favour of this, we got no real option then to start to enforce it. Not sure if that has happend yet?

    The UK and Sweden have been among the harsher critics of this proposal.

    Here is an article from September
    http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/65f49...#axzz2DRlMHQk1
    Last edited by Jackmoves; 2012-11-27 at 06:03 PM.
    The nerve is called the "nerve of awareness". You cant dissect it. Its a current that runs up the center of your spine. I dont know if any of you have sat down, crossed your legs, smoked DMT, and watch what happens... but what happens to me is this big thing goes RRRRRRRRRAAAAAWWW! up my spine and flashes in my brain... well apparently thats whats going to happen if I do this stuff...

  3. #2283
    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    You're either not very experienced at debate or not very mature. You don't get to put words in my mouth.

    I never said men should be able to walk away from children at will. Nor have I said safe haven laws are a conspiracy.

    Men should have a window of opportunity to reject parentage of a child as a means to family planning. Preferably before the child is born so it gives the woman time to decide what to do. There's no sound reason the unilateral decision to keep or abort a child should leave him entirely on the hook for 21 years because of a 1 night stand. If she wants to keep the kid, she can raise it on her own or if she's unable to handle it on her own she can abort. No one is taking that decision away from her. Again, there's no good reason a decision that SHE'S the only one allowed to make should be the deciding factor in the fate of the man.

    Second, Safe Haven laws weren't designed as a feminist conspiracy. They can simply be used as a way to walk away from a child that the mother is unable or unwilling to care for.

    What about men who are unable or unwilling to support a child? Where's their out?
    This is why people should be more choicey in who they choose to have sex with. family planning happens before a child is conceived not after the fact. In this day and age people know what it takes to make a child so you are willing to have a one night stand you have willingly taken on the risk of becoming a father/ mother. Yes, women have two outs but it is women who also carry most the burden of caring for a child that last well beyond 21 years of child support. In fact women tend to be the primary child care provider even in marriages which is why for the most part they get custody of the children. The other part is some men ( I am willing to be a large number) do not want the responsible of the day to day caring of a child so they do not seek custody. But I have gone off topic a bit.

    Your suggestion would still not work no work to be honest because you still are leaving the decision for the women to inform the man that she is pregnant with in a certain time. A woman could choose not to tell a man until it is too late for the man to have any options. Now to fix that we could make it so that before the father of the child name could be placed on the birth certificate he must be present and agree to taking care of the child. After that he would have thirty days to change his mind about whatever choice he made. In the case the man is not present at the time of the birth a court order would be issued notifying the man that a claim has been made about him being the father of the child and he would either need to come in and sign papers of intent or request a blood test before thrity days are up. The man would still have thirty days after that to change his mind about his choice. Now for a woman who cannot give the basic information needed on who the father is she will be unable to make a child support claim until that information is provided and the man has been given a chance to make a choice. This would not count for married couples or couples who were married, if the child is that of the husbands he should pay child support. If it is found that the child is not his the woman should be made to pay back any cost the man had incurred while the woman was pregnant and he will not be made to pay child support.

    While I don't like that option much (well I think the part about the married couple is how it should be) this is the only way this type of thing would be handled fairly for both the parties involved.

  4. #2284
    Quote Originally Posted by Humungo View Post
    PS. Aalyy
    "OK so after 113 pages it does indeed boil down to the claim that since women have the right to control their own bodies men's rights are being violated unless they get to walk away at will from any responsibility to a child that may result from their sexual activities. In other words, unless the man wants the child his rights are being violated if he is forced by law to step up and take responsibility. The same responsibility that a woman has to under the law.

    Oh and Safe Haven laws are a feminist conspiracy against fathers and we shouldn't think that the MRM is anything other than a total joke. Got it! "

    Nobody, at, all, is, advocating, that.
    Stop reading into the comments.
    If I for example say an orange walks into the house, it does not mean that I said a pear did not walk into the house. Get that?
    Yes, they actually are. You should start by actually reading the comments. You can call an orange a pear. Doesn't mean it's not an orange. See? I can do it too.

  5. #2285
    The Unstoppable Force Rukentuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ebildays View Post
    This is why people should be more choicey in who they choose to have sex with. family planning happens before a child is conceived not after the fact.
    I'm sorry, but abortion falls under 'family planning'.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatOak View Post
    Hey, as a transabled, transethnic, non-binary, genderqueer, neo-communist, indoor-capable republican otherkin I am offended by your callous display of ignorance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eroginous View Post
    I wouldn't expect someone who thinks science provides proof to know that.

  6. #2286
    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    You're either not very experienced at debate or not very mature. You don't get to put words in my mouth.

    I never said men should be able to walk away from children at will. Nor have I said safe haven laws are a conspiracy.

    Men should have a window of opportunity to reject parentage of a child as a means to family planning. Preferably before the child is born so it gives the woman time to decide what to do. There's no sound reason the unilateral decision to keep or abort a child should leave him entirely on the hook for 21 years because of a 1 night stand. If she wants to keep the kid, she can raise it on her own or if she's unable to handle it on her own she can abort. No one is taking that decision away from her. Again, there's no good reason a decision that SHE'S the only one allowed to make should be the deciding factor in the fate of the man.

    Second, Safe Haven laws weren't designed as a feminist conspiracy. They can simply be used as a way to walk away from a child that the mother is unable or unwilling to care for.

    What about men who are unable or unwilling to support a child? Where's their out?
    The safe haven comment was half sarcasm. Meant to be as absurd as the majority of your comments. And just because you cannot weasel your way out of the things you say, or white wash them to make them seem less like the sexist drivel they are, doesn't make me any of the things you say I am.

    You want an "opt out" option for men because women are allowed by law to decide the outcome of the pregnancy. "Preferably" before the child is born. How very generous of you. You cannot fast talk your way out of this.

  7. #2287
    Quote Originally Posted by Aalyy View Post
    The safe haven comment was half sarcasm. Meant to be as absurd as the majority of your comments. And just because you cannot weasel your way out of the things you say, or white wash them to make them seem less like the sexist drivel they are, doesn't make me any of the things you say I am.

    You want an "opt out" option for men because women are allowed by law to decide the outcome of the pregnancy. "Preferably" before the child is born. How very generous of you. You cannot fast talk your way out of this.
    No one would argue that it can't be abused, but the notion that it can be abused has helped shape rather strict laws that many in this thread find unfair when compared to the options women have. One of the ideas in this thread is to challenge the thought that men absolutely must "man up" and be "responsible" when women have a lot of outs and can be called "irresponsible" because of that.

    Keep in mind I haven't said what my own thoughts are on this since I keep finding new information in this thread that, when considered, change my views.

    And I think I have to keep saying this: Men have a good chance at getting better contraception in a few years thanks to a new male pill. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIaL5QiKbWI is an in-person explanation of it and http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releas...-ftp081012.php is his source.
    Last edited by Jackielope; 2012-11-27 at 06:35 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Everything Nice View Post
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  8. #2288
    Quote Originally Posted by Rukentuts View Post
    I'm sorry, but abortion falls under 'family planning'.
    I am all for choice be lets be honest abortion is not "family planning". It is a reaction choice to an unwanted(unplanned for) pregnacy in non-medical cases. Am I am going to look down on women who make that choice? No, it is not my body or my child so it really is non of my business. Family planning is more along the lines of taking the proper steps to ensure that you don't have an unplanned pregnancy or getting things in order for a planned pregnancy. Now when things go bad, failed birth control, no access to Plan B, or whatever that is when abortion or adoption steps in. When you really don't want a child or just can't afford one those are your last options.

    That is what I mean by people being choicey with who they have sex with. If you are with a woman and she tells you up front, "I don't believe in having an abortion or giving up my child for adoption", you know ahead of time your options with that woman. Either you stay with her and take on that risk or you find someone with the same mind set.

  9. #2289
    Quote Originally Posted by Aalyy View Post
    Yes, they actually are. You should start by actually reading the comments. You can call an orange a pear. Doesn't mean it's not an orange. See? I can do it too.
    It's not walking away from a child if you never wanted the kid to begin with.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-27 at 06:34 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Aalyy View Post
    The safe haven comment was half sarcasm. Meant to be as absurd as the majority of your comments. And just because you cannot weasel your way out of the things you say, or white wash them to make them seem less like the sexist drivel they are, doesn't make me any of the things you say I am.

    You want an "opt out" option for men because women are allowed by law to decide the outcome of the pregnancy. "Preferably" before the child is born. How very generous of you. You cannot fast talk your way out of this.
    We have laws to smooth out bumps in biology.

    Women are allowed to abort a fetus they aren't ready for. Men should be allowed to disown a child they're not ready for if the mother decides to bring it to term. Men shouldn't be liable for women's choices.

  10. #2290
    The Unstoppable Force Rukentuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ebildays View Post
    I am all for choice be lets be honest abortion is not "family planning". It is a reaction choice to an unwanted(unplanned for) pregnacy in non-medical cases. Am I am going to look down on women who make that choice? No, it is not my body or my child so it really is non of my business. Family planning is more along the lines of taking the proper steps to ensure that you don't have an unplanned pregnancy or getting things in order for a planned pregnancy. Now when things go bad, failed birth control, no access to Plan B, or whatever that is when abortion or adoption steps in. When you really don't want a child or just can't afford one those are your last options.
    Some women actually do use abortion as their primary form of birth control, believe it or not. I remember my mother's coworker has stated she has had six.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ebildays View Post
    That is what I mean by people being choicey with who they have sex with. If you are with a woman and she tells you up front, "I don't believe in having an abortion or giving up my child for adoption", you know ahead of time your options with that woman. Either you stay with her and take on that risk or you find someone with the same mind set.
    This is the same argument we had last night, and quite frankly abortion opponents used to say the same exact thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatOak View Post
    Hey, as a transabled, transethnic, non-binary, genderqueer, neo-communist, indoor-capable republican otherkin I am offended by your callous display of ignorance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eroginous View Post
    I wouldn't expect someone who thinks science provides proof to know that.

  11. #2291
    Quote Originally Posted by Rukentuts View Post
    Some women actually do use abortion as their primary form of birth control, believe it or not. I remember my mother's coworker has stated she has had six.

    This is the same argument we had last night, and quite frankly abortion opponents used to say the same exact thing.
    The first comment reminds me of why I've thought that a strikes system might work, but as I think about it more it just gets more convoluted.

    And if abortion opponents have said the exact same thing, there's going to be even more shit flying it seems...
    Quote Originally Posted by Everything Nice View Post
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  12. #2292
    Quote Originally Posted by Aalyy View Post
    The safe haven comment was half sarcasm. Meant to be as absurd as the majority of your comments. And just because you cannot weasel your way out of the things you say, or white wash them to make them seem less like the sexist drivel they are, doesn't make me any of the things you say I am.

    You want an "opt out" option for men because women are allowed by law to decide the outcome of the pregnancy. "Preferably" before the child is born. How very generous of you. You cannot fast talk your way out of this.
    Wow, you're practically foaming at the mouth here.
    There is no valid reason for a woman to have unilateral decision-making power over the father's role in the child's possible life. Period.

  13. #2293
    Quote Originally Posted by Rukentuts View Post
    Some women actually do use abortion as their primary form of birth control, believe it or not. I remember my mother's coworker has stated she has had six.

    This is the same argument we had last night, and quite frankly abortion opponents used to say the same exact thing.

    Just like some men will (if they were able to) use the ability to father a ton of kids and opt out of taking care of them stating they are not ready to be a father. But we are talking about the majority of people like Laize pointed out to me earlier in this thread.

    No, the argument is vaild but even in the argument is vaild it is still no one's business about what a person chooses to do with their body. But I am just old fashioned and feel that people should know who they are having sex with and if you cannot talk to them about family planning before you have sex with them there is a problem. While I have an opinion on the issue I am not going to take away someone's choice because I may not agree with it, especially when it has no effect on me what they choose to do.

  14. #2294
    The Unstoppable Force Rukentuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ebildays View Post
    No, the argument is vaild but even in the argument is vaild it is still no one's business about what a person chooses to do with their body. But I am just old fashioned and feel that people should know who they are having sex with and if you cannot talk to them about family planning before you have sex with them there is a problem. While I have an opinion on the issue I am not going to take away someone's choice because I may not agree with it, especially when it has no effect on me what they choose to do.
    If you do not have a problem with one party having a choice, why is giving the other party the same choice a problem?
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatOak View Post
    Hey, as a transabled, transethnic, non-binary, genderqueer, neo-communist, indoor-capable republican otherkin I am offended by your callous display of ignorance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eroginous View Post
    I wouldn't expect someone who thinks science provides proof to know that.

  15. #2295
    Quote Originally Posted by Rukentuts View Post
    If you do not have a problem with one party having a choice, why is giving the other party the same choice a problem?
    Because they aren't essentially the same choice. A woman in this case has a choice between keeping the baby and accepting the changes it's going to make to her body as well as taking the responsibility of taking care of a child and possibly life threatening and painful procedure of abortion and the mental impact essentially killing your child is going to have as a price (women start bonding with the child even long before birth). Man has the choice to not take responsibility, not have to pay anything and leave a fatherless child and being responsible father as well as being in economically worse situation. I'd say the woman has considerably worse consequences from her choice to be what I consider irresponsible.

    And in the end, I really don't care about the bickering between parents here. What I think matters most is the child; if mother makes the choice to not be a parent, there will be no kid. If father decides he doesn't want to be a parent or pay child support, there will still be a kid to suffer from the decision they couldn't possibly have any say in. I agree it's not fair and that it is a difficult issue; but I also think this is an issue where we'll never be equal simply out of biological reasons.

  16. #2296
    First of all, this thread made me register to these forums, simply because I can not stand aside and read some of these posts without falling into deep depression.

    That said, I believe that men should have the choice to opt out from the financial responsibility of supporting the child up to the point when the woman still can get an abortion. If at that point both of the parents still wish that the child will be carried to term, they agree to share the responsibility of the child. Once the child is born with both of the parents having agreed on the matter, they both should share equal responsibility. The discussion and decision of whether to keep the child or not, should be documented by medical professional, so that it is made sure that both parties were aware of the pregnancy and both of their opinions were noted. This way, if the man for example is unware of the pregnancy due to the woman withholding the information, he could be absolved of the responsibility after the time period when abortion is still possible.

    Birth control methods are not 100% proof, no matter how careful you are, and nobody should be punished for accidents.

    Also Wells, how can you go on and on about bodily autonomy, when you agree that it is okay to circumcise newborn boys? It baffles my mind, doesn't it go against the bodily autonomy of the boy? Why can't we go around chopping off earlobes from babies for example, after all they serve really no purpose and someone might prefer their kids not having them.(rough example I know) I admit I did not read EVERY single one of the 2200~ posts in this thread, so pardon me if you answered it somewhere.

  17. #2297
    The Unstoppable Force Rukentuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cephilia View Post
    Because they aren't essentially the same choice. A woman in this case has a choice between keeping the baby and accepting the changes it's going to make to her body as well as taking the responsibility of taking care of a child and possibly life threatening and painful procedure of abortion and the mental impact essentially killing your child is going to have as a price (women start bonding with the child even long before birth). Man has the choice to not take responsibility, not have to pay anything and leave a fatherless child and being responsible father as well as being in economically worse situation. I'd say the woman has considerably worse consequences from her choice to be what I consider irresponsible.
    But to speculate, do you think a woman would prefer to know before or after birth that a father wants no part?
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatOak View Post
    Hey, as a transabled, transethnic, non-binary, genderqueer, neo-communist, indoor-capable republican otherkin I am offended by your callous display of ignorance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eroginous View Post
    I wouldn't expect someone who thinks science provides proof to know that.

  18. #2298
    Quote Originally Posted by Rukentuts View Post
    If you do not have a problem with one party having a choice, why is giving the other party the same choice a problem?
    If you look at one of my above post you will see that I took the time to lay out how I would like to see that choice come about. While I don't agree with it, I would still vote for it. I don't 100% agree with abortion especially when people use it as a form of birth control but I am pro-choice and I support that right. While it may be hard to believe I do try to look beyond my own personal morals and focus on the bigger picture.

    My problem is trying to lable that option as not abandoning the child because you are abandoning your child. It is the same if a woman or a man chooses to give up rights to that child for whatever reason. People are trying to pretty up the fact that what they want is "Hey I don't want this kid never did so let me remove my rights to it and move on with the rest of my life". Or making it seem like people are trying to make them be fathers when what people are saying is "Just give the cash over, you don't even have to see the kid if you don't want to." I just don't like the sugar coating of what they really want. Plus it does not help that most of the men in this thread come off as woman haters and I still am wondering why they just don't date other men. It would solve all the problems they are talking about.

    Now by the same token if a man is willing to support a woman while pregnant and take the child after birth, I don't see why a woman would not listen to that request, at that point she can just call herself a surrogate mother. Or if she wants to give up her rights by adopting the child out why not give the man the option to take the child. Some men really do want their children and when a woman does that to them it is hurtful to them.

  19. #2299
    Quote Originally Posted by Rukentuts View Post
    But to speculate, do you think a woman would prefer to know before or after birth that a father wants no part?
    I think it would be before, since I see no advantages in hearing about it after compared to before. The father's view is hopefully a part of the decision (unless it's a case of, for example, a woman who's personal ethics don't allow abortion and that's why she doesn't consider that option) and also because there's a lot of planning and arranging to do before a baby is due. It's certainly good to know what kind of support you have available and whether or not you have to take in to account the fathers interests (for example; if you are moving to a large apartment, which is quite common, how far can that apartment be? If the father wants to keep in touch with his child, moving 1500 miles away might not be the best choice).

    A bit different subject, but it's the first time I've encountered clear and enraging male discrimination in my own life (small things are always there, but this made me actually angry because I feel it's an important thing). Where I live, we have an exceptional and admired health care system for pregnant families and children under the school age. The idea is to offer support and information as well as guarantee a good home for every child, monitor growth and catch illnesses as soon as possible etc, and there's tons of good material there. They seem to take the whole family in to account; the parent's relationship, alcohol use, how the father feels, with one glaring difference; only women were asked about violence in the relationship. No one asked the father if he thought the mother was violent or if there was a risk of violence towards the child. It seemed not only like saying violence towards men wasn't an issue, but also a failure to securing the best possible conditions for the baby.

  20. #2300
    Quote Originally Posted by Cephilia View Post
    Because they aren't essentially the same choice. A woman in this case has a choice between keeping the baby and accepting the changes it's going to make to her body as well as taking the responsibility of taking care of a child and possibly life threatening and painful procedure of abortion...
    Let's drop the part about abortion being "possibly life threatening." Abortion is safer than childbirth.

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