1. #2321
    Legendary! darenyon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rukentuts View Post
    You know what else causes a lot of troubles in a kid's life? Having shit for parents.
    and its impossible to determine what kind of parents will adopt or foster a kid left to the state. which makes abortion the best possible option.

  2. #2322
    Quote Originally Posted by darenyon View Post
    and its impossible to determine what kind of parents will adopt or foster a kid left to the state. which makes abortion the best possible option.
    So take that option. It's available to you if that's how you feel. Don't try and blame other people for your own decision, though.

  3. #2323
    Quote Originally Posted by Aalyy View Post
    Describing my post with hysterical adjectives doesn't make it any less valid. Yes, sexism pisses me off esp. thinly disguised sexism where someone talks out both sides of his mouth about how fathers are so discriminated against but they should be allowed to walk away scott free from any responsibility if they don't happen to want a child. I mean, get real!

    If men get to bear zero responsibility for a child just because they say so then that leaves the woman with 100% of the responsibility because of Biology regardless of her choice. That isn't fair. What was someone saying about making laws to circumvent Biology's inherent inequality??? Well there ya go! That's what we have on the books now.
    Can a man say to a woman he impregnated she should get an abortion and the woman can say no and just go through with it? Can a woman have an abortion regardless of what the man who impregnated her wants? If both answers are yes then I don't see how this is fair in any way.
    Thankfully some normal adults can come to some sort of agreement without ignoring eachothers wishes.

  4. #2324
    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    The man won't be making a unilateral decision whatsoever. He'll be making a self-determining decision that doesn't have to influence the woman's choice in whether or not to abort. If she lets it, that's her problem. If she doesn't let it affect her decision, good on her.
    Of course it's unilateral. His decision to leave absolutely has a huge impact on her. He can do that without any input or influence. That is the definition of unilateral. I said it before, it's complete selfishness dressed up as equal rights. If you wanted an equal solution, you would find one that didn't involve you walking away from a situation you helped to create.

    @ruken: Both parties have two points where they can choose. 1. Intercourse. 3. Birth. If either parent leaves here they are rightly responsible for child support. The only one the man misses out on is 2. Abortion. That's because the baby is never in him or he could do it too. Your solution doesn't improve the situation, it just gives men a way out. For the 97th time.

  5. #2325
    Legendary! darenyon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rukentuts View Post
    And you refuse to see that having both parties able to choose actually improves the situation.
    thats the problem, it improves it for men and makes it worse for everyone else.
    Seriously, don't you think women would like to know ASAP as soon as a father doesn't want it?

    "Oh yeah by the way I know you just gave birth and all...but uh, I'm not going to be there."
    he doesnt have to be there now, or keep it a secret that he wont.

  6. #2326
    Quote Originally Posted by buck008 View Post
    Of course it's unilateral. His decision to leave absolutely has a huge impact on her. He can do that without any input or influence. That is the definition of unilateral. I said it before, it's complete selfishness dressed up as equal rights. If you wanted an equal solution, you would find one that didn't involve you walking away from a situation you helped to create.
    Huge impact on her? And the current paradigm of 21 years of child support (based on a unilateral decision) doesn't have a huge impact on men?

    Letting the man opt out is a better option because it doesn't take an option away from the woman. She's still free to bring the pregnancy to term or terminate it. No one has removed that choice. Given her something to think about? Certainly. Taken the choice away? Nope.

  7. #2327
    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    Huge impact on her? And the current paradigm of 21 years of child support (based on a unilateral decision) doesn't have a huge impact on men?

    Letting the man opt out is a better option because it doesn't take an option away from the woman. She's still free to bring the pregnancy to term or terminate it. No one has removed that choice. Given her something to think about? Certainly. Taken the choice away? Nope.
    A decision that only removes your share of the responsibility is not analogous to one that removes everyone's responsibility.

  8. #2328
    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    Huge impact on her? And the current paradigm of 21 years of child support (based on a unilateral decision) doesn't have a huge impact on men?

    Letting the man opt out is a better option because it doesn't take an option away from the woman. She's still free to bring the pregnancy to term or terminate it. No one has removed that choice. Given her something to think about? Certainly. Taken the choice away? Nope.
    And that's the crux of what I'm trying to tell you. Letting the man out improves the situation for one person: the man. It complicates an already tough decision and potentially puts more of a burden on the state through foster care or state assistance. All possible because you gave the man the option to walk away with no questions asked. You have no problem with you taking an action that affects other people, but have a huge problem with other people taking an action that affects you. That's pretty much hypocrisy.

  9. #2329
    Quote Originally Posted by buck008 View Post
    And that's the crux of what I'm trying to tell you. Letting the man out improves the situation for one person: the man. It complicates an already tough decision and potentially puts more of a burden on the state through foster care or state assistance. All possible because you gave the man the option to walk away with no questions asked. You have no problem with you taking an action that affects other people, but have a huge problem with other people taking an action that affects you. That's pretty much hypocrisy.
    Exactly. The woman either has a choice to split the cost of raising with the father or make the entire thing a wash. Giving the man the right to just walk away and say fuck it to the rest is not equal power, its giving men advantages.

  10. #2330
    Merely a Setback Rukentuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darenyon View Post
    thats the problem, it improves it for men and makes it worse for everyone else.
    Bull, it improves women's situation too because with a period for men to decide, they can come to a decision sooner themselves.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatOak View Post
    Hey, as a transabled, transethnic, non-binary, genderqueer, neo-communist, indoor-capable republican otherkin I am offended by your callous display of ignorance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vyxn View Post
    it has become a sad state of affairs that people would rather look like brain washed idiots then admit they was wrong

  11. #2331
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    A decision that only removes your share of the responsibility is not analogous to one that removes everyone's responsibility.
    And what does that have to do with anything? Nothing, that's what. If a woman's decision to abort can outweigh a man's desire to be a father (as it should) then her decision removes everyone's responsibility even if they want it.

    There's nothing wrong with being able to just remove yourself from the situation. You're still not limiting women's choices. You're simply not forcing men to finance theirs.

  12. #2332
    Quote Originally Posted by Rukentuts View Post
    Bull, it improves women's situation too because with a period for men to decide, they can come to a decision sooner themselves.
    Wait wait wait, giving a man the choice to force the mother of his child to bear that child on her own or abort is an advantage to women, because then they can abort sooner?

  13. #2333
    Quote Originally Posted by buck008 View Post
    And that's the crux of what I'm trying to tell you. Letting the man out improves the situation for one person: the man. It complicates an already tough decision and potentially puts more of a burden on the state through foster care or state assistance. All possible because you gave the man the option to walk away with no questions asked. You have no problem with you taking an action that affects other people, but have a huge problem with other people taking an action that affects you. That's pretty much hypocrisy.
    You're acting as though the choice to abort doesn't affect anyone but the mother.

  14. #2334
    Abortion is a horrible thing, do a google search without safesearch on and don't eat while looking.
    I'd never do that to anyone, I rather let the kid grow up as an orphan than do that brutal murder.
    You may remember me from such threads as!
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...18#post8213418

  15. #2335
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Exactly. The woman either has a choice to split the cost of raising with the father or make the entire thing a wash. Giving the man the right to just walk away and say fuck it to the rest is not equal power, its giving men advantages.
    So you're saying men and women are as equal as they can possibly be with the current situation?

  16. #2336
    Merely a Setback Rukentuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Wait wait wait, giving a man the choice to force the mother of his child to bear that child on her own or abort is an advantage to women, because then they can abort sooner?
    As opposed to a man waiting to walk out in a late trimester or after birth, yes.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatOak View Post
    Hey, as a transabled, transethnic, non-binary, genderqueer, neo-communist, indoor-capable republican otherkin I am offended by your callous display of ignorance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vyxn View Post
    it has become a sad state of affairs that people would rather look like brain washed idiots then admit they was wrong

  17. #2337
    And what does that have to do with anything? Nothing, that's what.
    Don't hurt your wrist with that hand waving. The decisions are not analagous. The man's choice is between sticking it all on the woman and losing nothing or sharing in the burden and the woman's choice is between sharing in the burden or wiping the entire situation out.

  18. #2338
    Old God Grizzly Willy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rukentuts View Post
    Bull, it improves women's situation too because with a period for men to decide, they can come to a decision sooner themselves.
    Yeah, I'm not sure how forcing them to choose sooner is a bonus.

  19. #2339
    Legendary! darenyon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    So take that option. It's available to you if that's how you feel. Don't try and blame other people for your own decision, though.
    id thank you to keep your assumptions to yourself.

    and it makes it more of a non-decision if one cares for the welfare of their kids. punishing those who wish to take responsibility & rewarding those that dont seems backwards to me.

  20. #2340
    Quote Originally Posted by Rukentuts View Post
    As opposed to a man waiting to walk out in a late trimester or after birth, yes.
    So a system that would let men walk away and leave the mother stuck with the kid alone or aborting is better than a decision where the father can walk away later but still has to pay for the child is better for women.

    Right.

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