1. #2341
    Merely a Setback Rukentuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grokan View Post
    Yeah, I'm not sure how forcing them to choose sooner is a bonus.
    I just said why. Having a period where men will have a choice will basically cut down on the number that flake out in a late trimester or after birth because they were in denial or some shit.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatOak View Post
    Hey, as a transabled, transethnic, non-binary, genderqueer, neo-communist, indoor-capable republican otherkin I am offended by your callous display of ignorance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cybran View Post
    Both of those links don't provide any evidence. They make unsubstantiated statements

  2. #2342
    Its interesting to note that the side effects of abortion are largely ignored as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  3. #2343
    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    You're acting as though the choice to abort doesn't affect anyone but the mother.
    No, I'm acting as though the choice affects both people, and you should approach a situation that you view as broken with a compromise solution that benefits both people. Giving the man the ability to walk away takes a choice away from the mother (i.e. raise the kid with bio dad physically or financially present). It adds nothing to the situation. You haven't made anything equal, you've just rearranged things so men have it a bit easier.

  4. #2344
    Quote Originally Posted by Rukentuts View Post
    I just said why. Having a period where men will have a choice will basically cut down on the number that flake out in a late trimester or after birth because they were in denial or some shit.
    A system that lets them flake early with no consequences is not better than a situation that lets them flake earlier and still have to pay support.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  5. #2345
    Merely a Setback Rukentuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    So a system that would let men walk away and leave the mother stuck with the kid alone or aborting is better than a decision where the father can walk away later but still has to pay for the child is better for women.

    Right.
    Has to pay doesn't mean he actually does.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatOak View Post
    Hey, as a transabled, transethnic, non-binary, genderqueer, neo-communist, indoor-capable republican otherkin I am offended by your callous display of ignorance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cybran View Post
    Both of those links don't provide any evidence. They make unsubstantiated statements

  6. #2346
    Quote Originally Posted by darenyon View Post
    id thank you to keep your assumptions to yourself.

    and it makes it more of a non-decision if one cares for the welfare of their kids. punishing those who wish to take responsibility & rewarding those that dont seems backwards to me.
    It's not punishing those who take responsibility nor is it rewarding those who don't.

    It's doing nothing beneficial or harmful to people who don't accept the burden. Meanwhile the woman is left with 2 choices. The same choices she had from the beginning. She can abort/adopt or bring the child to term and raise it herself.

    Same choices. Nothing's changed except she can't depend on an unwilling father's garnished wages.

  7. #2347
    Merely a Setback Rukentuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    A system that lets them flake early with no consequences is not better than a situation that lets them flake earlier and still have to pay support.
    Yes it is, because what if the woman would now have preferred abortion when he left? Now she has an infant, little late for that.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatOak View Post
    Hey, as a transabled, transethnic, non-binary, genderqueer, neo-communist, indoor-capable republican otherkin I am offended by your callous display of ignorance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cybran View Post
    Both of those links don't provide any evidence. They make unsubstantiated statements

  8. #2348
    Quote Originally Posted by Rukentuts View Post
    Has to pay doesn't mean he actually does.
    I'm all for expanding the legal system to pursue deadbeats.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  9. #2349
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Its interesting to note that the side effects of abortion are largely ignored as well.
    Because that's biology's fault. Just like it's biology's fault women get the choice in whether to abort or not.

    The more complicated nature of the abortion procedure doesn't get to enter into the lawmaking decision. The law is there to smooth out the bumps biology throws at us. Not enhance them.

  10. #2350
    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    It's not punishing those who take responsibility nor is it rewarding those who don't.

    It's doing nothing beneficial or harmful to people who don't accept the burden. Meanwhile the woman is left with 2 choices. The same choices she had from the beginning. She can abort/adopt or bring the child to term and raise it herself.

    Same choices. Nothing's changed except she can't depend on an unwilling father's garnished wages.
    Stop pretending the powers you're giving men don't effect the woman.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  11. #2351
    Equality and equal rights are great, unless they through logic grant more rights to men.

  12. #2352
    Well... I gotta say I am a fan of feminists being so clearly SEXIST yet that is considered acceptable. "Men are Misoginists" <- Used in context which basically says ALL men are Misoginists. "Men are stronger than women" <- While... Positive? That's still steriotyping and therefore sexist. Talking about domestic abuse then ignore the fact that men don't get taken seriously AT ALL when it comes to them making such claims. And - From personal experience - My little brother said he wanted to live with our Dad when my father and his ex split up. They both had solicitors. My little brother said this to the solicitor. He was completely ignored because he wasn't 16. Guess what? He hates his mother with a passion, and they've been split up for a good 8 years now. Go figure. He may have been young (still is at 13), but nothing has changed since then. He still wants to live with his dad. So yeah, I call bollocks on the child actually having a say. That system works completely for women.

    Rape is an issue, but you do realize SEVERAL rape cases get found out to be false before even going to court, and the vast majority of statistics are based around the ones that go to court. Heck, one of my friends was accused of rape at a party he wasn't even at. Simply because the woman in question didn't like him. Don't get me wrong, women do have more than a right to complain about certain aspects, but don't sit there putting all men in a single fucking cupboard because you're too ignorant to believe that not all men are the same.

  13. #2353
    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    Because that's biology's fault. Just like it's biology's fault women get the choice in whether to abort or not.

    The more complicated nature of the abortion procedure doesn't get to enter into the lawmaking decision. The law is there to smooth out the bumps biology throws at us. Not enhance them.
    I'm just saying. You were up in arms over the extremely rare side effects of circumcision. Apparently the side effects of abortion are so minimal though its analogous to just letting a man walk away entirely.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  14. #2354
    Quote Originally Posted by buck008 View Post
    No, I'm acting as though the choice affects both people, and you should approach a situation that you view as broken with a compromise solution that benefits both people. Giving the man the ability to walk away takes a choice away from the mother (i.e. raise the kid with bio dad physically or financially present). It adds nothing to the situation. You haven't made anything equal, you've just rearranged things so men have it a bit easier.
    And what sort of compromise is there? I thought allowing a man to walk away without removing a woman's choices was pretty damn compromising.

    But if you have another idea, let's hear it.

  15. #2355
    Merely a Setback Rukentuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    I'm all for expanding the legal system to pursue deadbeats.
    Why? Let's face it, you'll be pursuing most of them for pocket change.

    I'm sure in quite a few cases the costs of the courts time is far more than the money the man ends up paying.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatOak View Post
    Hey, as a transabled, transethnic, non-binary, genderqueer, neo-communist, indoor-capable republican otherkin I am offended by your callous display of ignorance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cybran View Post
    Both of those links don't provide any evidence. They make unsubstantiated statements

  16. #2356
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Stop pretending the powers you're giving men don't effect the woman.
    And how do they affect her? Hmm? The only thing this would do is remove women's ability to take a chunk of a man's cash for 21 years without any way to fight it on his part.

  17. #2357
    Quote Originally Posted by Rukentuts View Post
    Why? Let's face it, you'll be pursuing most of them for pocket change.
    Then it doesn't matter, since child support is income dependent. You're still claiming that letting men walk away is better for women because at least they'll get to know if he's going to bail earlier, even though they'd now be out child support.

    Its frankly a little misogynistic.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-28 at 02:08 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    And how do they affect her? Hmm? The only thing this would do is remove women's ability to take a chunk of a man's cash for 21 years without any way to fight it on his part.
    I love how you do your best to ignore the fact there is a child that needs to be supported. Nope its just them crazy bitches draining your bank account.

    The decision effects her because it changes her decision from "share burden or abort" to "raise alone or abort" if he decides to walk away. His decision directly changes the outcomes of her available options.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  18. #2358
    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    And what sort of compromise is there? I thought allowing a man to walk away without removing a woman's choices was pretty damn compromising.

    But if you have another idea, let's hear it.
    But you do remove a choice. As I said, one choice is to raise the kid with bio dad (person or money). You took that choice and gave it to the father. That's it. There's no compromise. You took something from one side and gave it to the other.

    To your other question, no I don't think there is a good solution. I don't think anyone will come up with a good solution. In this circumstance you can not possibly make everyone happy. But to rearrange the situation so men have an out and call that equal rights or compromise is just wrong.

  19. #2359
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post

    I love how you do your best to ignore the fact there is a child that needs to be supported. Nope its just them crazy bitches draining your bank account.
    I've said it before and I'll say it till it sinks in.

    You don't get to campaign for a mother's right to kill a child just because it's unborn and then throw a hissy fit when its quality of life is in jeopardy. Biology of the situation be damned, that's exactly what you're advocating and trying to sugarcoat it by saying "A fetus isn't alive" or "I don't support late term abortions" doesn't change that fact.

    The decision effects her because it changes her decision from "share burden or abort" to "raise alone or abort" if he decides to walk away. His decision directly changes the outcomes of her available options.
    Do you really think no men (or even a majority of men) would abandon their child? No. The decision doesn't become "raise alone or abort" unless he actually takes the option. Most men would still take care of their kid. Most guys aren't half as shitty as you seem to think. You know, just like how most women aren't out to be deceiving men. Right? Right.

    The option isn't there for guys who have no sense of responsibility. It's there for guys who legitimately are not in a place to support the child. Just like abortion is there for women in a plate to legitimately not support the child.

  20. #2360
    Merely a Setback Rukentuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Its frankly a little misogynistic.
    And this is why I cannot take most "feminists" seriously, when men want equal rights and choices they're "misogynists".
    Last edited by Rukentuts; 2012-11-28 at 02:15 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatOak View Post
    Hey, as a transabled, transethnic, non-binary, genderqueer, neo-communist, indoor-capable republican otherkin I am offended by your callous display of ignorance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cybran View Post
    Both of those links don't provide any evidence. They make unsubstantiated statements

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