Isn't it about time the Mens' Rights Movement stopped being treated like a joke?

[Wells]

If you can't afford it, don't have it.

Irrelevant. Whether you can afford it on your own or not does not mean the child would not be better off with a second income stream supporting it.

[Rukentuts]

Irrelevant. Whether you can afford it on your own or not does not mean the child would not be better off with a second income stream supporting it.

Have you seen the income demographics where this issue is most prevalent?

[starlord]

I don't buy that. Currently the only time a man can ever be happy with the outcome of a pregnancy is if he's in lockstep with the woman.

That seems wrong, to me.

---------- Post added 2012-11-28 at 02:16 AM ----------



And what about women making median or higher wages? Do you think their best possible solution to an unwanted pregnancy is to abort?

No. Of course it isn't. Stop pretending women need a man.

the whole point of child support is to ensure they dont. or vice versa.

[Laize]

Don't compare a fetus and its supposed right to life (that does not legally exist) to the needs of a living human being that is unable to sustain itself. You know that's a bullshit comparison.

No, it's a bullshit justification that you're using to convince yourself you're right. You know full well if left to term that kid would almost certainly be fine and you still support abortion. And that's fine! I agree with you on it. But don't pretend abortion is anything but killing something. It's just being dishonest with yourself.

As I said. You don't get to campaign for a kid's right to quality of life after you leave a rally to campaign for the mother's right to kill it in utero.

No shit, if he doesn't take the option nothing changes. The point stands. His new choice directly effects the outcome of the mother's options. It effects her, as you have denied.

And you know what? Maybe it should at least give her something to think about. Rather than just thinking about herself maybe she should have to take the father's feelings into consideration before deciding to bring the kid to term.

Child support is income dependent. If you think child support specifics need to be tweaked I'm all ears.

I'm well aware child support is income dependent. I'm also aware the amount received per child is dependent on how many the father has.

Don't pretend you're not aware of how you must continue making child support payments even if you lose your job. Don't even get me started on what happens if you get in arrears. Oh and getting child support adjustments. Yeah it's always fun to have extra legal expenses every time you get laid off or your kid's mother finds out you got a promotion and files for an adjustment.

I think the easiest way is to just cap child support at about $200/month or 5% of take-home income. Whichever is less. The most a kid costs in ongoing expenses (Food, diapers, clothes) is about $5000/year. If you're splitting the costs 50/50 cut it in half that's $2500/year or $210/month.

That way the bank isn't going to get broken for any man who doesn't want a kid in the first place.

---------- Post added 2012-11-28 at 02:31 AM ----------

the whole point of child support is to ensure they dont. or vice versa.

They don't what? Need a man?

LOL!

What the hell do you call depending on his child support money? That's needing a man.

[Rukentuts]

Yeah, I don't even believe there is a cap for child support atm, is there?

[Wells]

No, it's a bullshit justification that you're using to convince yourself you're right.

So you think a fetus is analogous to a living biologically separate and self aware human being?

And you know what? Maybe it should at least give her something to think about. Rather than just thinking about herself maybe she should have to take the father's feelings into consideration before deciding to bring the kid to term.

Yeah those pregnant women, always just thinking about themselves. This is a new level of pretending there isn't and won't be something that needs to be cared for.

Don't pretend you're not aware of how you must continue making child support payments even if you lose your job. Don't even get me started on what happens if you get in arrears. Oh and getting child support adjustments. Yeah it's always fun to have extra legal expenses every time you get laid off or your kid's mother finds out you got a promotion and files for an adjustment.

This is a problem wit the child support system's mechanics that can be addressed without giving fathers the legal right to be a deadbeat.

[Laize]

Yeah, I don't even believe there is a cap for child support atm, is there?

There is not. Some well off men find themselves shelling out what most men would consider a yearly salary in just child support...

[buck008]

I think the easiest way is to just cap child support at about $200/month or 5% of take-home income. Whichever is less. The most a kid costs in ongoing expenses (Food, diapers, clothes) is about $5000/year. If you're splitting the costs 50/50 cut it in half that's $2500/year or $210/month.

That way the bank isn't going to get broken for any man who doesn't want a kid in the first place.

Believe it or not, I agree. I think there should be mechanisms in place to adjust slightly for cost of living by state or county, and also for inflation every so often. In principle, a cap on child support is not a terrible idea.

[starlord]

What the hell do you call depending on his child support money? That's needing a man.

or conversely, a woman. child support is to make up for the missing parent. you have never addressed this.

[Wells]

I have no problem with a progressive cap on max child support payments.

[Rukentuts]

There is not. Some well off men find themselves shelling out what most men would consider a yearly salary in just child support...

Yeah, no cap is absolute bullshit.

[Wells]

or conversely, a woman. child support is to make up for the missing parent. you have never addressed this.

Its because his argument starts to look pretty bad when if he has to acknowledge it makes things objectively worse for children.

[buck008]

I have no problem with a progressive cap on max child support payments.

I think it's insane what, for example, Terrel Owens has to pay in child support. Just because one parent is rich, the other parent should have no expectation of lifestyle because of it. They should expect enough to ensure that all of their child's needs are met.

[Rukentuts]

I think it's insane what, for example, Terrel Owens has to pay in child support. Just because one parent is rich, the other parent should have no expectation of lifestyle because of it. They should expect enough to ensure that all of their child's needs are met.

Agreed. It needs to be capped at living expenses for the child and that's it.

[Wells]

I think it's insane what, for example, Terrel Owens has to pay in child support. Just because one parent is rich, the other parent should have no expectation of lifestyle because of it. They should expect enough to ensure that all of their child's needs are met.

IDK, I think a child is entitled to the best opportunity its parents are capable of providing it.

But I agree that the algorithms for determining child support could use tweaking.

[Grizzly Willy]

Who helps pay for it anyway?

One guess.

Was sort of my point. I thought Conservatives (maybe not you, I don't remember where you stand) don't want more welfare.

[Laize]

So you think a fetus is analogous to a living biologically separate and self aware human being?

No. But I think the "clear distinction" between a fetus and an infant is disingenuous. It's just people lying to themselves about what they're actually doing. It doesn't matter what state of life something is at. If you pull a tapeworm out of someone you've killed the tapeworm. If you pull a fetus out of someone you've killed a fetus. A human fetus. We draw arbitrary lines between "unconscious blob of cells" and "baby" to make us feel good about ourselves for what we do. I don't draw that distinction because it serves no legitimate purpose. You abort a fetus, you've killed a human who's merely in a life-stage everyone has gone through. You just deny that it's human because you need to justify to yourself that you're not a murderer. You don't get to pretend it's not human and then SUDDENLY it's a human.

As I've said numerous times, I support a woman's right to choose. I just don't believe anyone is doing themselves a favor by denying the fact that they're killing someone.

Yeah those pregnant women, always just thinking about themselves. This is a new level of pretending there isn't and won't be something that needs to be cared for.

No, in their defense they're thinking about their kid too. The only person they're NOT thinking about is the father.

This is a problem wit the child support system's mechanics that can be addressed without giving fathers the legal right to be a deadbeat.

Stop using that word. It holds no more weight in this discussion than calling a woman who has an abortion a murderer.

---------- Post added 2012-11-28 at 02:41 AM ----------

or conversely, a woman. child support is to make up for the missing parent. you have never addressed this.

90something percent of child support payments are made by men.

---------- Post added 2012-11-28 at 02:42 AM ----------

Stop pretending the child isn't worse off with less money available to raise it.

Of course it is. But it was never the man's choice to bring it into the world to begin with.

[buck008]

IDK, I think a child is entitled to the best opportunity its parents are capable of providing it.

But I agree that the algorithms for determining child support could use tweaking.

Well, a parent that was unwilling to have a child in the first place shouldn't be forced to keep the kid in designer clothes, private schools, and college. If the remaining parent wants those things, that is something they need to work for. The responsibility of the absent parent should only be to ensure that the kid's needs are provided for.

[Wells]

If they're not analogous then don't act like someone is a hypocrite for treating them as nonanalogous. A child is a human being that is dependent on the people who created it. A fetus is a clump of cells that exists on the whim of the host.

No, in their defense they're thinking about their kid too. The only person they're NOT thinking about is the father.

Yeah pregnant women never think of the father. No woman ever takes the father's desires into consideration.

---------- Post added 2012-11-28 at 02:44 AM ----------

Well, a parent that was unwilling to have a child in the first place shouldn't be forced to keep the kid in designer clothes, private schools, and college. If the remaining parent wants those things, that is something they need to work for. The responsibility of the absent parent should only be to ensure that the kid's needs are provided for.

There's a balance to be struck, to be sure. I would for example, be interested in a system where child support that the father gives goes into an account where he can see the expenditures made and can bring a small court claim for stuff like designer clothes. But if the father can afford college for instance, that's something else.

[starlord]

90something percent of child support payments are made by men.

which has no bearing on what i said.