1. #2501
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolercaust View Post
    Dismiss the idea with "fuck that" if you'd like, doesn't change the inequity here. If a pregnancy results from a night of sex, the man is entirely at the mercy of the woman with all regard to the fetus. That is not equitable, that is not right. With the change we are suggesting, the man is free to choose for himself whether or not he will be a father. The mother can still do likewise for herself. The only thing the mother loses is the option to have the child and force the man into supporting the child, which is wrong to begin with.
    Or you could acknowledge that not all situations should be equitable. Women and men have different burdens when it comes to pregnancy. That and every proposed "solution" gives men more power than women under the guise of equality.
    the man is free to choose for himself whether or not he will be a father.
    Men are not devoid of options, you guys just don't seem to like them.
    The only thing the mother loses is the option to have the child and force the man into supporting the child, which is wrong to begin with.
    She's only forcing him to do something he has a responsibility for anyway, his child.
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  2. #2502
    Legendary! darenyon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    What the hell are you talking about?

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-28 at 05:58 AM ----------



    I'm sorry what? I really have no idea what you guys are talking about. I think there's been a miscommunication.
    i rest my case.

  3. #2503
    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    A woman shouldn't be allowed to unilaterally decide a man's financial future.



    Still not the same. The woman has an out. Man needs one too.



    Yes of course. The guy is the one who's too stupid to use birth control. Rethink that statement or you lose any credibility in a thread about equality.

    Second, adoption is free. Safe Haven laws exist for that reason. You can also get paid for adoption. Tons of families who can't conceive kids of their own will pay your medical expenses and then some.

    Lastly, to say a man needs to be responsible when a woman can throw that responsibility out the window is stupid.
    Responsibility should lie on both of those who participate in sex. It's the man's AND the woman's fault. They are BOTH responsible for any pregnancy that occurs.
    A WOMAN IS NOT 'THROWING AWAY RESPONSIBILITY' WHEN SHE GETS AN ABORTION. SHE IS SIMPLY ACKNOWLEDGING THAT SHE IS NOT READY TO TAKE CARE OF A CHILD AND DOES NOT WANT TO HAVE A CHILD AT THIS POINT IN HER LIFE, IF NOT EVER.
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  4. #2504
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Or you could acknowledge that not all situations should be equitable. Women and men have different burdens when it comes to pregnancy. That and every proposed "solution" gives men more power than women under the guise of equality.
    I'd stop at "gives men more power."
    Besides, the considerable burden women have to bear by carrying a child is irrelevant to whether or not a man should be able to withdraw responsibility. The way you guys are phrasing it, it sounds like another guilt trip.

    Men are not devoid of options, you guys just don't seem to like them.
    Back to the "snip snip" are we?

    She's only forcing him to do something he has a responsibility for anyway, his child.
    And we're asking that an opt-out be allowed from that responsibility for a father who isn't ready to be a father, the same way a mother chooses to abort if she isn't ready to be a mother.

  5. #2505
    Legendary! darenyon's Avatar
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    And we're asking that an opt-out be allowed from that responsibility for a father who isn't ready to be a father, the same way a mother chooses to abort if she isn't ready to be a mother.
    until you can opt the child out of existence its not the same way at all.

  6. #2506
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Men are not devoid of options, you guys just don't seem to like them.
    Because the only options you offer are either preventative and/or force you to place too much trust in the other party. There's no self-determination after an accident.

    She's only forcing him to do something he has a responsibility for anyway, his child.
    And pro-lifers say the woman has a responsibility to her child.

    I swear your arguments are perfectly interchangeable with pro-lifers.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-28 at 06:40 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by darenyon View Post
    until you can opt the child out of existence its not the same way at all.
    Sure it is. It's her choice to bring the kid to term. Why shouldn't she bear the total responsibility if he's not ready? Can you provide one reason that doesn't involve the child's quality of life (Since she could have opted to nullify its life altogether)?

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-28 at 06:41 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by DuckieMage View Post
    Responsibility should lie on both of those who participate in sex. It's the man's AND the woman's fault. They are BOTH responsible for any pregnancy that occurs.
    A WOMAN IS NOT 'THROWING AWAY RESPONSIBILITY' WHEN SHE GETS AN ABORTION. SHE IS SIMPLY ACKNOWLEDGING THAT SHE IS NOT READY TO TAKE CARE OF A CHILD AND DOES NOT WANT TO HAVE A CHILD AT THIS POINT IN HER LIFE, IF NOT EVER.
    So is the man in our hypothetical scenario.

  7. #2507
    Besides, the considerable burden women have to bear by carrying a child is irrelevant to whether or not a man should be able to withdraw responsibility. The way you guys are phrasing it, it sounds like another guilt trip.
    You're misunderstanding. The only power a woman has that a man doesn't, whether to carry, is a power only a woman could have. And her share of the burden is greater than the man's. Its perfectly natural she'd have an option he doesn't.
    Back to the "snip snip" are we?
    There are all kinds of ways for a guy to avoid getting a kid. IUDs are statistically perfect for instance. Just sleep with a woman who has one.
    And we're asking that an opt-out be allowed from that responsibility for a father who isn't ready to be a father, the same way a mother chooses to abort if she isn't ready to be a mother.
    A mother gets to choose to abort because its her body. No one is saying a man has to actually be a father in an meaningful way, but the child's need to be supported supersedes his desire not to have to pay for the result of his decisions.
    Because the only options you offer are either preventative and/or force you to place too much trust in the other party. There's no self-determination after an accident.
    "Too much trust" is pretty thoroughly informed by your crippling stance on women tbh. And I don't see why someone should be guaranteed a reactive way to avoid responsibility for the results of their decisions.
    I swear your arguments are perfectly interchangeable with pro-lifers.
    Probably because you're still pretending there's no difference between a clump of cells and a child. Which is pretty stupid so I'm just going to let you keep doing it and ignore it when you do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
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    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  8. #2508
    Quote Originally Posted by darenyon View Post
    until you can opt the child out of existence its not the same way at all.
    Doesn't matter, they accomplish the same goal for each party. It ultimately comes down to the woman, as it always has, whether or not the child will live. She can make that decision just as well with or without the father's presence in the situation.

  9. #2509
    Legendary! darenyon's Avatar
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    Sure it is. It's her choice to bring the kid to term. Why shouldn't she bear the total responsibility if he's not ready?
    her choice not to doesnt place a burden on him. im not sure why its been so tough to grasp that its not " the same way as" placing the full burden on another.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-27 at 10:47 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Lolercaust View Post
    Doesn't matter, they accomplish the same goal for each party. It ultimately comes down to the woman, as it always has, whether or not the child will live. She can make that decision just as well with or without the father's presence in the situation.
    it doesnt accomplish the same goal.

  10. #2510
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    You're misunderstanding. The only power a woman has that a man doesn't, whether to carry, is a power only a woman could have. And her share of the burden is greater than the man's. Its perfectly natural she'd have an option he doesn't.
    I feel like this is where the argument should end. The law can't compensate for biological differences, and it shouldn't.

  11. #2511
    Doesn't matter, they accomplish the same goal for each party.
    They really don't. A woman's choice to abort is either a "share burden or no burden for anyone" and Laize's demands give men the power of "no burden for me or no burden".

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-28 at 06:49 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Grokan View Post
    I feel like this is where the argument should end. The law can't compensate for biological differences, and it shouldn't.
    I think it would be better to say that the law should not compensate for just unequality. Women have more options because they have more on the line.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  12. #2512
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    Sure it is. It's her choice to bring the kid to term. Why shouldn't she bear the total responsibility if he's not ready? Can you provide one reason that doesn't involve the child's quality of life (Since she could have opted to nullify its life altogether)?
    In the real world the only obligation forced on the man is financial though. Unless she gives the child up for adoption she is 'forced' to take care of a child a good 18 years. The two do not compare.

    The man still has the choices about being a father or not, it is provider he must be in your scenario

  13. #2513
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    "Too much trust" is pretty thoroughly informed by your crippling stance on women tbh. And I don't see why someone should be guaranteed a reactive way to avoid responsibility for the results of their decisions.
    Because half the human population is. The other half should too.

    Probably because you're still pretending there's no difference between a clump of cells and a child. Which is pretty stupid so I'm just going to let you keep doing it and ignore it when you do.
    I'm not calling it a child. I'm calling it a human. That much is undeniable.

  14. #2514
    Legendary! darenyon's Avatar
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    look. you want to be able to walk away from children you father. more power to you.

    just stop pretending its in the name of equal rights by drawing whatever false equivalancies you can pull randomly out of a hat.

  15. #2515
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    You're misunderstanding. The only power a woman has that a man doesn't, whether to carry, is a power only a woman could have. And her share of the burden is greater than the man's. Its perfectly natural she'd have an option he doesn't.
    It may be natural, but that doesn't make it right. The man has the right to a hand in the decision-making process, and since it's unethical for a woman's body to be controlled by anybody but herself, there's only one other place where the man can have the say and that's whether or not to take responsibility for this child.

    There are all kinds of ways for a guy to avoid getting a kid. IUDs are statistically perfect for instance. Just sleep with a woman who has one.
    I've never met a woman who has "I HAVE AN IUD" stamped on her forehead.

    A mother gets to choose to abort because its her body. No one is saying a man has to actually be a father in an meaningful way, but the child's need to be supported supersedes his desire not to have to pay for the result of his decisions.
    The child's need does not supersede the man's because at the time the opt out is made the child is just a "clump of cells." The rights of a living person supersedes the rights of a clump of cells. It is the mother's decision whether or not the child will even have a need for support, and she should make that decision independent of the father.

  16. #2516
    Because half the human population is. The other half should too.
    Half of the population has bodily autonomy as a relevant issue, the other half doesn't. Equal rights are for equal positions. Men and women are not in equal positions here so long as a woman's body is required for the creation of a child.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  17. #2517
    So pretty much...
    If the woman wants the child, the man should not be held responsible for the child and doesn't owe her anything and shouldn't have to give support.
    But if the man wants the child, the woman must carry the child to term so he can have it.

    It sounds like you want to have the say no matter what the woman wants and her wants, needs, and desires have to take a back seat to the man's desire.
    You want total power with no compromise for what the woman wants. You are saying that the man is right no matter what the woman wants.
    Sounds sexist and Male Dominate to me.
    Last edited by DuckieMage; 2012-11-28 at 06:59 AM.
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  18. #2518
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolercaust View Post
    Doesn't matter, they accomplish the same goal for each party. It ultimately comes down to the woman, as it always has, whether or not the child will live. She can make that decision just as well with or without the father's presence in the situation.
    Perhaps this may sound like a very simplistic aproach to the issue, but knowing where a person stands when it comes to conception prior to intercorse seams like a very simple way to avoy any unwanted parental responsibities.
    Last edited by kattarina; 2012-11-28 at 07:07 AM.

  19. #2519
    The man has the right to a hand in the decision-making process,
    he does. The only reactive option a woman has is with regards to what is done with her own body.

    The problem is you guys see women having an option that men don't have and then assuming that that means men need another option too, while completely ignoring the reason the woman has that decision and how that doesn't apply to men.
    I've never met a woman who has "I HAVE AN IUD" stamped on her forehead.
    You should try talking to a girl about birth control before you sleep with her.
    The child's need does not supersede the man's because at the time the opt out is made the child is just a "clump of cells." The rights of a living person supersedes the rights of a clump of cells.
    No one is saying the man has to support a fetus. He has to support the child that he created though.
    It is the mother's decision whether or not the child will even have a need for support, and she should make that decision independent of the father.
    The answer to "women get to decide if they should bear a child in the first place" is not giving men the power to decide whether they want to support their child after it is born. Those aren't analogous.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  20. #2520
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolercaust View Post
    I've never met a woman who has "I HAVE AN IUD" stamped on her forehead.
    Then you better ask.
    Because if you don't want the child, then you better have a good reason for not asking/having BC. And "It feels better without a condom" is not a valid excuse.
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