1. #301
    You still ignore the whole premise of choice. However, I will waste no more time attacking your straw-man.
    Its not a strawman, its an example of how stupid it is to say that we should ban circumcision. The practice is well within the norms for what we allow with regards to cultural practices.
    Because it's an optional procedure with a risk of complications, no medical necessity (in the vast majority of cases) and potential loss of sensation.
    So what? Complications are almost always minor, and are extremely rare. We allow very very rarely risky social practices all the time. And there is little merit to the claim that it lowers sexual function.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  2. #302
    Merely a Setback Rukentuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    I'm sorry that this is how democracy works.
    Don't be sorry. You merely pointed out exactly what I was trying to say.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-23 at 10:21 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    The practice is well within the norms for what we allow with regards to cultural practices.
    Oh then by all means let's bring back a whole long list of socially accepted practices, morality be damned.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatOak View Post
    Hey, as a transabled, transethnic, non-binary, genderqueer, neo-communist, indoor-capable republican otherkin I am offended by your callous display of ignorance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cybran View Post
    Both of those links don't provide any evidence. They make unsubstantiated statements

  3. #303
    Old God Grizzly Willy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sisk View Post
    Child mutilation is not the same as adults doing something on their own risk.
    Can we get a report for the number of deaths that result from circumcisions? I would wager that the number of deaths from drunk drivers is higher. Should also keep in mind those who drink and become violent.

  4. #304
    Oh then by all means let's bring back a whole long list of socially accepted practices, morality be damned.
    Oh now we've hit an actual strawman. Society is rife with unnecessary social practices we have no problem with despite a very small risk of injury.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  5. #305
    Moderator Northern Goblin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aciaedius View Post
    The question was why the "men's rights movement" as an entity isn't taken seriously, I explained why. I might add, by the way, that I used to consider myself a part of this movement until I realized how superficial and two-faced the rhetoric I'd been following was. It doesn't mean I care less about men's rights than when I labelled myself such.
    I have friends who considered themselves feminists till they needed to distance themselves from the radical elements of the group. Feminism as a label is losing effectiveness.


    * I never said the international men's day should also mention women's issues.
    To be fair I may have taken you out of context here:

    Every time they're confronted with this, they'll insist with valiance and ferocity that they only wish to focus on both genders' problems "instead of just one" (ignoring that the feminist movement at large wants exactly that and treating them like enemies), yet when their actions speak it's always something petty at best and harmful (by focusing the debate on petty stuff so the big issues remain unresolved) at worst.
    International Men's Day is men doing something, it's men taking an action. And I'll be damned if the issues raised were "petty" and that the action taken was harmful.

    * I never implied anything on the same continent as "men's rights activists think women should commit more suicide to even out the scale".
    I never said you implied it, but I wanted to clarify because of the following quote:

    The thing is, the issues you bring up in your second paragraph are issues feminists at large also want to resolve. Yet whenever I see someone get on a soapbox to preach the men's rights movement or spotlight some silly nutjob calling him/herself a feminist, what I just mentioned is entirely irrelevant and it's all delivered with a sour undertone (if not stated explicitly) of "us versus them".
    There's no us versus them in the points I was making. I wanted to clarify that, and I wasn't accusing you of implying or suggesting anything.

    * I explicitly stated that I am in fact not whitewashing an entire group, just that I've noticed a so far unbroken pattern in my experience with people in that group.
    I never saw the edit line of you stating that was your personal experience, it certainly wasn't there when I last read your post.

  6. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    1.5% is not large and includes things like minor bleeding. Don't confuse "complications" with "fatalities". Its not a risky procedure by any reasonable stretch of the imagination. Clearly we should ban peewee sports since I'm sure the injury rate far exceeds 1.5%. Gotta stamp out those not actually risky cultural practices.
    It may not be fatal but not a small number of men who have had the procedure done will later in their lives complain that the feeling is numb and almost none existing, partially or totally removing the pleasure of sex, which is pretty much the same future aspect for a girl that has had her clitoris removed.

  7. #307
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Its not a strawman, its an example of how stupid it is to say that we should ban circumcision. The practice is well within the norms for what we allow with regards to cultural practices.

    So what? Complications are almost always minor, and are extremely rare. We allow very very rarely risky social practices all the time. And there is little merit to the claim that it lowers sexual function.
    So say I wanted to gauge my kid's ears? Or give them a tattoo? How long would I have that kid before CPS came knocking?

    The only defense for circumcision is an appeal to tradition. Can you come up with one argument for it that isn't?

  8. #308
    Merely a Setback Rukentuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Oh now we've hit an actual strawman. Society is rife with unnecessary social practices we have no problem with despite a very small risk of injury.
    Yes, because it's only an invalid argument when I do it. However when you do it for pages on end, it's a valid argument.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatOak View Post
    Hey, as a transabled, transethnic, non-binary, genderqueer, neo-communist, indoor-capable republican otherkin I am offended by your callous display of ignorance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cybran View Post
    Both of those links don't provide any evidence. They make unsubstantiated statements

  9. #309
    Legendary! darenyon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    Because it's an optional procedure with a risk of complications, no medical necessity (in the vast majority of cases) and potential loss of sensation.

    Its only defense is an appeal to tradition. Imagine if parents pierced and began gauging their infant's ears? That's just as benign, but would probably be considered unacceptable, no?
    yeah thats terrible you gotta wait till they're at least 4.

  10. #310
    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    So say I wanted to gauge my kid's ears? Or give them a tattoo? How long would I have that kid before CPS came knocking?
    Well unless your kid is waving his dick around in the air I don't see how circumcising him is going to prevent him from functioning in society.

    And that's the difference. Tating up your kid will damage his ability to function in society. Its not benign.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  11. #311
    Old God Grizzly Willy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Well unless your kid is waving his dick around in the air I don't see how circumcising him is going to prevent him from functioning in society.

    And that's the difference. Tating up your kid will damage his ability to function in society. Its not benign.
    I dunno, hasn't stopped me.

  12. #312
    Fluffy Kitten Aciaedius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fengore View Post
    I never saw the edit line of you stating that was your personal experience, it certainly wasn't there when I last read your post.
    I added the edit line aproximately 2 minutes after making my first post in this thread, reiterating it because I felt someone would probably miss the "in my (admittedly anecdotal) experience" part in the very beginning of the post. Don't push it over on me. :/
    PvE:er to the bone. Plays a druid. Also plays DotA and a whole bunch of other stuff. Listens to mostly everything.
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  13. #313
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Well unless your kid is waving his dick around in the air I don't see how circumcising him is going to prevent him from functioning in society.

    And that's the difference. Tating up your kid will damage his ability to function in society. Its not benign.
    Let's say I got their tattoo on the back where they could cover it up.

  14. #314
    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    Let's say I got their tattoo on the back where they could cover it up.
    If you want to give your child an tattoo in a hidden area as a long standing cultural practice that will no damage his ability to function in society you knock yourself out as far as I'm concerned.

    Because I'm not interested in using the force of law to stamp out cultural practices that don't harm people to any meaningful degree.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  15. #315
    Moderator Northern Goblin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    1.5% is not large and includes things like minor bleeding. Don't confuse "complications" with "fatalities".
    Misread your previous post. Also where did you get the 1.5% from for surgical complications?

    Clearly we should ban peewee sports since I'm sure the injury rate far exceeds 1.5%. Gotta stamp out those not actually risky cultural practices.
    Really, we're comparing an unnecessary surgery done to infants unable to consent to kids who sign up to do sports after school of their own accord?

    If someone wants to be circumcised themselves then who's to stop them, they're undertaking the risk. When someone makes that decision for you?

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-24 at 04:30 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Aciaedius View Post
    I added the edit line aproximately 2 minutes after making my first post in this thread, reiterating it because I felt someone would probably miss the "in my (admittedly anecdotal) experience" part in the very beginning of the post. Don't push it over on me. :/
    Just saying, I didn't see it. Apologies for misquoting your original post, it seemed more like an attack of "My experiences are a reason why people don't take MRM activists seriously!"

  16. #316
    Moderator Kasierith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    Because it's an optional procedure with a risk of complications,
    Grossly exaggerated. One death in 1/500,000 in the US.

    King LR. Neonatal circumcision in the United States in 1982. J Urol 1982;128:1135-6.

    no medical necessity (in the vast majority of cases)
    False. http://pediatrics.aappublications.or....full.pdf+html

    and potential loss of sensation.
    Also false. http://pediatrics.aappublications.or....full.pdf+html

    Its only defense is an appeal to tradition.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/27/sc...says.html?_r=0
    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...FEC5960.d01t02
    http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs...1X.2011.572862
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3139859/

    Imagine if parents pierced and began gauging their infant's ears? That's just as benign, but would probably be considered unacceptable, no?
    Sure. Except that its not equatable. But its ok, you don't have to take my word for it.
    “…the whole trouble lies here. In words, words. Each one of us has within him a whole world of things, each man of us his own special world. And how can we ever come to an understanding if I put in the words I utter the sense and value of things as I see them; while you who listen to me must inevitably translate them according to the conception of things each one of you has within himself. We think we understand each other, but we never really do.”
    XKCD is always relevant. Always.

  17. #317
    Misread your previous post. Also where did you get the 1.5% from for surgical complications?
    Wikipedia. Citing a study in the National Library of Medicine as operated by the NIH.
    Really, we're comparing an unnecessary surgery done to infants unable to consent to kids who sign up to do sports after school of their own accord?
    The principle is the same. We're saying circumcision should be banned because its a pointless cultural practice that has a very very small risk of complications. Peewee baseball isn't necessary and has a much greater risk of injury but we don't go about banning it.
    If someone wants to be circumcised themselves then who's to stop them, they're undertaking the risk. When someone makes that decision for you?
    Children don't get to make decisions for themselves. That's the nature of being a child.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  18. #318
    Moderator Northern Goblin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    Grossly exaggerated. One death in 1/500,000 in the US.
    Lucky you, we've had two in the last year in the UK.

  19. #319
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    If you want to give your child an tattoo in a hidden area as a long standing cultural practice that will no damage his ability to function in society you knock yourself out as far as I'm concerned.

    Because I'm not interested in using the force of law to stamp out cultural practices that don't harm people to any meaningful degree.
    Do you think you'd feel different if the head of your penis was numbed because of a botched circumcision? Do you think people who've suffered botched circumcisions support their use on infants?

    And this is all secondary to the fact that it's still an optional procedure performed on a kid who can't affirm or decline consent. I know of no other optional medical procedure with zero benefit that's allowable for infants.

    Yeah, kids don't get to make decisions for themselves. They still have rights, though.

  20. #320
    Moderator Northern Goblin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Children don't get to make decisions for themselves. That's the nature of being a child.
    So why are we tolerant on them being forced into an unnecessary surgery?

    Why not let them grow up till they're old enough to consent and let them decide for themselves?

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