1. #1301
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    Because the child doesn't concern me. Prior to 24 weeks it's not even sentient. Any argument to the contrary is just moralising bullshit from people with nothing better to do than meddle in the affairs of people trying to live their lives.

    Money doesn't cover the pain and suffering component of being pregnant. So, yeah.
    Pain and suffering... huh? I've heard precious few stories where women didn't like being pregnant and the attention/emotions that came with it. There are always some ill effects but I know no one who rates the overall experience as "pain and suffering".

  2. #1302
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    Quote Originally Posted by UncleSilas View Post
    But men should be liable to pay for the woman's decision? Also I never mentioned sentience, good job sticking on topic. We should certainly take into consideration the woman's feelings, but you think we ought to ignore the feelings of the man?
    Well, by the logic of the anti-choice people, 'it's just a consequence of having sex'.

    I consider bodily autonomy a more pressing issue than monetary autonomy. Not that I wouldn't like a resolution for the latter, however.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
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  3. #1303
    Quote Originally Posted by UncleSilas View Post
    Nobody said that, this discussion is purely revolving about the developed world. So perhaps you'd like to not change the criteria for discussion in order to make a counter argument.

    I fully agree with the claim that women's rights internationally are not up to standard, but we're not discussing that right now.
    Right, so male problems are:
    Not having equal rights for parental rights. Extremely high possibility of loosing the trial for parental right. (Let's face it, few fathers win those trials)
    Having a disturbingly high suicide rate from the age of 20-25 which have yet to be properly addressed. (Which is most likely a problem caused by the modernization of how the male should act and behave through the Media)
    Has a higher possibility of Jail due to false charges than the female. (At least to my knowledge of cases where the truth comes out later during trials)

    In my opinion, the biggest problem is not specifically male or female right when it comes to western countries where we can get a mayhap reliable statistic over these things, my guess would be on the Media bringing forth stereotypes of female and male creating a lot of these problems.
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  4. #1304
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    Pain and suffering... huh? I've heard precious few stories where women didn't like being pregnant and the attention/emotions that came with it. There are always some ill effects but I know no one who rates the overall experience as "pain and suffering".
    Anecdotal. A significant amount of psychological damage is inflicted by carrying a child you don't want, as the APA consensus goes.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  5. #1305
    I am Murloc! UncleSilas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    Well, by the logic of the anti-choice people, 'it's just a consequence of having sex'.

    I consider bodily autonomy a more pressing issue than monetary autonomy. Not that I wouldn't like a resolution for the latter, however.
    Alright, what sort of resolution for the latter would you like to see?

  6. #1306
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    Pain and suffering... huh? I've heard precious few stories where women didn't like being pregnant and the attention/emotions that came with it. There are always some ill effects but I know no one who rates the overall experience as "pain and suffering".
    For many mothers childbirth and pregnancy was such a painful, harrowing and excruciating experience they chose to do it over, and over and over again.

  7. #1307
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    Anecdotal. A significant amount of psychological damage is inflicted by carrying a child you don't want, as the APA consensus goes.
    Who the hell is suggesting women carry children they don't want?

  8. #1308
    [QUOTE=UncleSilas;19216150]Men simply do not have equal parenting rights. Men's health awareness is pathetic in comparison to the funding received for women's health. Suicide rates for men in their early twenties is disturbingly high, yet little public awareness exists.
    /QUOTE]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Here_Comes_Honey_Boo_Boo

    Excuse me... what? I can't hear you over the sound of hypocrisy.

  9. #1309
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    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    Anecdotal. A significant amount of psychological damage is inflicted by carrying a child you don't want, as the APA consensus goes.
    What are the psychological side effects of having a wanted child aborted?

  10. #1310
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    Who the hell is suggesting women carry children they don't want?
    The people that don't want NSA abortion.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-25 at 04:31 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by UncleSilas View Post
    What are the psychological side effects of having a wanted child aborted?
    Existent, but far less. The numbers are skewed owing to the social stigma generated from having an abortion.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  11. #1311
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    [QUOTE=Dorothyjean;19216337]
    Quote Originally Posted by UncleSilas View Post
    Men simply do not have equal parenting rights. Men's health awareness is pathetic in comparison to the funding received for women's health. Suicide rates for men in their early twenties is disturbingly high, yet little public awareness exists.
    /QUOTE]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Here_Comes_Honey_Boo_Boo

    Excuse me... what? I can't hear you over the sound of hypocrisy.
    I don't even understand the point you're trying to get at. What the christ is that?

  12. #1312
    Legendary! darenyon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rukentuts View Post
    There's adoption and abortion. Which are two more choices than men currently have.
    both of which result in no child support for the man.

  13. #1313
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    Quote Originally Posted by UncleSilas View Post
    Alright, what sort of resolution for the latter would you like to see?
    /shrug. It's not an issue I really consider terribly critical.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  14. #1314
    I am Murloc! UncleSilas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    The people that don't want NSA abortion.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-25 at 04:31 PM ----------



    Existent, but far less. The numbers are skewed owing to the social stigma generated from having an abortion.
    According to which data set? And how are they skewed exactly?

  15. #1315
    The Unstoppable Force Rukentuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    Well, by the logic of the anti-choice people, 'it's just a consequence of having sex'.
    But we give ways out of those consequences for one party but not the other?

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-25 at 06:33 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by darenyon View Post
    both of which result in no child support for the man.
    You still don't get it. Men have no choice in the matter, this is why many consider it a problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatOak View Post
    Hey, as a transabled, transethnic, non-binary, genderqueer, neo-communist, indoor-capable republican otherkin I am offended by your callous display of ignorance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eroginous View Post
    I wouldn't expect someone who thinks science provides proof to know that.

  16. #1316
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    /shrug. It's not an issue I really consider terribly critical.
    Men commit suicide every year from being court-ordered to pay onerous amounts of child support or alimony. Most men who commit suicide do so because of family issues related to the breakdown of a marriage or relationship.

    So how is this not a pressing issue?

  17. #1317
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    Quote Originally Posted by UncleSilas View Post
    According to which data set? And how are they skewed exactly?
    The APA did a metastudy about the psychological impacts of unwanted pregnancy versus abortion; I'd have to search for the link.

    Skewed, I would say aggravated.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  18. #1318
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benitora View Post
    Right, so male problems are:
    Not having equal rights for parental rights. Extremely high possibility of loosing the trial for parental right. (Let's face it, few fathers win those trials)
    Having a disturbingly high suicide rate from the age of 20-25 which have yet to be properly addressed. (Which is most likely a problem caused by the modernization of how the male should act and behave through the Media)
    Has a higher possibility of Jail due to false charges than the female. (At least to my knowledge of cases where the truth comes out later during trials)

    In my opinion, the biggest problem is not specifically male or female right when it comes to western countries where we can get a mayhap reliable statistic over these things, my guess would be on the Media bringing forth stereotypes of female and male creating a lot of these problems.
    BINGO! Media creates sterotypes and as long as we are sterotyping sexes and factoring this into our treatment of them then there are problems for both sides.

  19. #1319
    Quote Originally Posted by Reqq View Post
    Ahh you mean the 0.01% risk of death (atleast here in the UK). I don't really care about the other two.
    Have you gained thirty pounds and had the responsibility of a new life growing inside you? While I haven't done the latter, I have gotten heavier and I can say the weight gain and discomfort alone can be difficult to deal with. If you can deal with it, great. But there are others who have different situations, and discrediting them on the basis of "don't care" tends to discredit yourself as a worthwhile opinion since you seem to lack empathy.

    Though I will give you this: Your sig is amusing, even in the context of this thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Everything Nice View Post
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  20. #1320
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    Men commit suicide every year from being court-ordered to pay onerous amounts of child support or alimony. Most men who commit suicide do so because of family issues related to the breakdown of a marriage or relationship.

    So how is this not a pressing issue?
    Because most people that commit suicide have preexisting psychological conditions of which the immediate cause of the suicide is incidental.

    People commit suicide in Japan from having to learn Kanji, for christ's sake.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

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