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  1. #1

    can someone tell me what i need to change , haste/master/crit plz

    here is my armory http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ryminaj/simple

    can anyone tell me if I should reforge out of mastery for my crit also do I have enough haste. also my character shows 12.67 haste not 7.30

  2. #2
    What you want to do is get enough haste to get to breakpoints. The first one is at 871, where you get an extra tick out of Riptide, Healing Rain and Earthliving. The second breakpoint is at 3764 to get an extra tick out of Healing Tide Totem and Healing Stream Totem. If you can't afford to reach 3764 haste, lower your haste to put more into Crit and Mastery.

    Spirit > Intellect > Haste (breakpoints) > Mastery (50%) then put everything else on the crit.

    source: www.noxxic.com

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Taoforums View Post
    What you want to do is get enough haste to get to breakpoints. The first one is at 871, where you get an extra tick out of Riptide, Healing Rain and Earthliving. The second breakpoint is at 3764 to get an extra tick out of Healing Tide Totem and Healing Stream Totem. If you can't afford to reach 3764 haste, lower your haste to put more into Crit and Mastery.

    Spirit > Intellect > Haste (breakpoints) > Mastery (50%) then put everything else on the crit.

    source: www.noxxic.com
    wait so u mean the haste number not the percentage so like I am at 12 percent but like 2,686 number that only needs to be at 871 that seems low
    50 percent mastery isnt that alot

  4. #4
    The haste doesn't need to be high, it's to have extra ticks off your abilities. Right now, yes, 50% mastery seems quite high, but in further tiers this won't be a problem. Stack Mastery. If your item cannot have be reforged to mastery, reforge it to crit.

    The diminishing returns of Mastery passed 50% makes it useless past the said 50%.

    Hope this helps.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Taoforums View Post
    The haste doesn't need to be high, it's to have extra ticks off your abilities. Right now, yes, 50% mastery seems quite high, but in further tiers this won't be a problem. Stack Mastery. If your item cannot have be reforged to mastery, reforge it to crit.

    The diminishing returns of Mastery passed 50% makes it useless past the said 50%.

    Hope this helps.
    Completely incorrect advice.

    (1) There are no diminishing returns on mastery. 100 Mastery rating gives the same increase to your healing on low health targets whether you have 10% or 70% mastery. The value of mastery is 100% linear.
    (2) The 50% mastery number is meaningless. You need to decide whether Crit or Mastery is a superior stat for you based on the damage patterns you will be healing. Once you make that determination, you want to stack that stat no matter what percentage your mastery or crit is at; both stats are fully linear. Stacking mastery to a certain percentage than switching to Crit makes no theorycrafting sense whatsoever.
    (3) The 871 Haste breakpoint with Ancestral Swiftness is mandatory, but it's also pretty much automatic. The breakpoint for Healing Stream and Healing Tide totem at 3764 is currently bugged, with extra totem ticks happening randomly at different haste levels. Even if it was working properly, you probably wouldn't want to stack that much haste. With the breakpoints random, there is 0 reason to.

    Here is how I would evaluate stat priority.

    1. Spirit - Keep on stacking it. You want to gem pure Spirit and never gem Intellect, because you get 2 Spirit for 1 INT from gems. The more regen you have, the more you can weave in expensive single target bombs and Chain Heal.
    2. Intellect - Does more output than the secondary stats, but the priority of INT is kind of irrelevant, because you shouldn't gem for it, and you can't reforge in or out of it anyway.
    3. Either Mastery or Crit - pick one or the other. The math says that if you are using a 3% increased critical effect meta gem (which you should be), the point at which 1 point of Mastery is more output than 1 point of Crit is 64% health for AOE healing and 45% health for single target direct heals. You have to evaluate how low your raid sits and determine whether Crit or Mastery is better for you. If you are close to the thresholds, Crit will perform better, because it also increases regen through Resurgence. In most cases, (at least in 25 man raiding), the raid doesn't sit low enough long enough to warrant stacking Mastery over Crit.
    4. The other of Mastery or Crit
    5. Haste - Haste has very little value outside of breakpoints, because we have so much inherent single target burst with Tidal Waves (1.5 second GHWs with limited haste from gear) and because so much of the rest of our output is heavily cooldown limited (Healing Rain, HST, etc). Haste outside of breakpoints only benefits you if you have the regen to take full advantage of the extra casts you can get off. The first break point is trivial (with Ancestral Swiftness specced) and the rest are not worth reaching, giving haste very poor value for us.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by tibbee View Post
    (1) There are no diminishing returns on mastery. 100 Mastery rating gives the same increase to your healing on low health targets whether you have 10% or 70% mastery. The value of mastery is 100% linear.
    (2) The 50% mastery number is meaningless. You need to decide whether Crit or Mastery is a superior stat for you based on the damage patterns you will be healing. Once you make that determination, you want to stack that stat no matter what percentage your mastery or crit is at; both stats are fully linear. Stacking mastery to a certain percentage than switching to Crit makes no theorycrafting sense whatsoever.
    Oh boy..

    1) While the increase itself does not diminish, the fact that it keeps increasing from the base and ignores previous values DOES make it diminish. Example:

    You heal for 100 HPS. 1% Crit will increase your 100 HPS by 1% on average, bringing you to 101 HPS. If you get 1% more Crit, it increases the 100 HPS by 1%, not the 101 HPS. This results in a 0.990099% increase in total healing, which is less than the 1% you got before. The same works for Mastery (as it is also a percentage based modifier on the base value that ignores previous levels of the percentage). Due to the fact that Crit and Mastery diminish on separate returns, having 5,000 Crit rating and 5,000 Mastery rating (assuming 0 base value) would net higher results than 10,000 of one or the other.

    2) As per the above, stacking one stat or the other is a bad idea as they both diminish but also scale with each other. Due to differing base values and natures of the stats, it makes sense to have a certain amount of mastery before switching to Crit because being able to save someone from death without relying on RNG is generally important for healing. Once you can reliably save someone, then you can beef up the stat which will provide more overall healing at that point, which will be Crit (which also provides some nice mana regen). As gear levels get higher, we may want to go to 55% or 60% Mastery at some point, but 50% is a good start for heroics through the first tier of raiding.

    Please keep in mind that this is something that has been known since the very beginning of Cataclysm, the mechanics of Crit and Mastery have not changed, and stacking one to the complete abandon of the other is just plain stupid.

  7. #7
    Stood in the Fire
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    The only way the diminishing return against itself matters for crit vs mastery is if the value of the two stats are extremely close to each other to begin with, which comes back to each person determining the value of each for their situation. If they are that close to each in value then the answer is going with both, rather than some arbitrary number like 50% mastery.
    Last edited by Chimaera; 2012-11-30 at 07:43 AM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Chimaera View Post
    If they are that close to each in value then the answer is going with both, rather than some arbitrary number like 50% mastery.
    About that 50% number specifically... I was all over these forums during Cataclysm on my other account (Whoopsa if anyone remembers, switched because I no longer used the email associated with it and forgot the password), and the number one thing we talked about regarding Mastery is that it's probably the hardest stat in the game of any spec to judge it's value because it's impossible to accurately measure what the average percentage of health your typical target has during a real raid. This led to all kinds of debates and arguments and a lot of confusion, but at the end of the day we all stacked Mastery because the flat returns from Resurgence didn't mean much in a world of increasing mana pools, and single-target healing really didn't exist aside from tank healing in Firelands or Dragon Soul.

    This expansion though, Crit means a lot more as Resurgence is quite a bit more important and Mastery is less so. There are a LOT of mechanics this tier that affect individual targets causing steady damage over time, forcing heals on them, but you'll never know what percentage they could be at with a DoT ticking for 50k+ on them and other healers scrambling to heal them as well. Basically, tank-type happens on a lot of fights on people that aren't even the tanks, meaning we see a lot of usage from Resurgence and that Mastery is even more unpredictable. However, to make things even more annoying, now we have a Mastery raid buff (that is also on us at all times), which brings the base level of Mastery to about the same as Crit with its raid buff, at least until we get more Intellect.

    To the point: why 50%? Well, because a lot of people feel comfortable spending 2500 or so rating on Mastery so that their GHW doesn't need to crit to save a dying player and prefer spending the rest on Crit because of the mana returns and throughput regardless of health. This tier, we do a lot of saving people that are at 15% and a lot of having to top people off for the next hit. We need both Crit and Mastery, and people like to have a number at which they can switch. The really savvy players don't need a number, they understand that you want enough Mastery to save people from death, and enough Crit for mana and healing that isn't necessarily required at that exact instant, but needs to be done anyways.

  9. #9
    Stood in the Fire
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    50% mastery as opposed to the base of 39% mastery is only an 8% increase in the amount healed by spells when the target of the spell is at 0% life. 0 mastery rating on gear is something you will not have either even if you do go for crit first. If you feel like this is a life saving amount of difference in the exact right danger zone of health pools so be it.

    I am in no way saying there is an obvious choice as to which is stronger because of how mastery works and the value of crit being dependent on spell selection and the situational nature of healing makes it a complex decision.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by tibbee View Post
    Here is how I would evaluate stat priority.

    1. Spirit - Keep on stacking it. You want to gem pure Spirit and never gem Intellect, because you get 2 Spirit for 1 INT from gems. The more regen you have, the more you can weave in expensive single target bombs and Chain Heal.
    2. Intellect - Does more output than the secondary stats, but the priority of INT is kind of irrelevant, because you shouldn't gem for it, and you can't reforge in or out of it anyway.
    3. Either Mastery or Crit - pick one or the other. The math says that if you are using a 3% increased critical effect meta gem (which you should be), the point at which 1 point of Mastery is more output than 1 point of Crit is 64% health for AOE healing and 45% health for single target direct heals. You have to evaluate how low your raid sits and determine whether Crit or Mastery is better for you. If you are close to the thresholds, Crit will perform better, because it also increases regen through Resurgence. In most cases, (at least in 25 man raiding), the raid doesn't sit low enough long enough to warrant stacking Mastery over Crit.
    4. The other of Mastery or Crit
    5. Haste - Haste has very little value outside of breakpoints, because we have so much inherent single target burst with Tidal Waves (1.5 second GHWs with limited haste from gear) and because so much of the rest of our output is heavily cooldown limited (Healing Rain, HST, etc). Haste outside of breakpoints only benefits you if you have the regen to take full advantage of the extra casts you can get off. The first break point is trivial (with Ancestral Swiftness specced) and the rest are not worth reaching, giving haste very poor value for us.
    I'm having a really difficult time agreeing with many of your points.

    1. Yes, stacking Spirit is a good idea. But you shouldn't always stack it. This isn't a no-brainer kind of situation. If you're comfortable with your mana regen (as in, you can end an encounter without going OOM), then you should stop stacking it and start gemming for Intellect for better throughput. If you're ending fights (and of course I mean raid encounters) with more than ~20% mana left, then you can definitely afford to start building more Intellect. This is only going to get easier as we get higher in tiers. Stacking too much Spirit is a complete waste.

    2. Again, you should gem for it when you're comfortable with your Spirit because you can't reforge into it.

    3. Makes no sense to completely disregard one stat over the other. Granted, its almost impossible to not have our Mastery pretty high, even with reforging it off, but it still shouldn't be completely avoided. Neither should Crit. Totaltotemic covered this better than I ever will.

    4. See #3

    5. This I agree with. And it should be noted that the second breakpoint (3764 Haste) isn't currently worth reaching for if you have to reforge/gem for it, the reason being that latency seems to screw around with the additional tick we're trying to get. It's completely unreliable right now and has drastically been reduced in effectiveness.

    Is there anything else to support your opinion other than personal playstyle? Much of what you say seems to contradict the established theorycrafting, I'm just wondering if maybe we're getting our information from different sources.
    Last edited by PaintOnASign; 2012-11-30 at 09:40 AM.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by tibbee View Post
    1. Spirit - Keep on stacking it. You want to gem pure Spirit and never gem Intellect, because you get 2 Spirit for 1 INT from gems.
    Almost correct.

    If you have a choice between SPI and INT at a 2:1 ratio (i.e. normal gems) then yes socket for SPI. If however you have the choice between SPI and INT at any ratio lower than this e.g JC gems (1.5:1) or food/flask buff (1:1) then you should be taking INT.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by mdnsiper7 View Post
    here is my armory http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ryminaj/simple

    can anyone tell me if I should reforge out of mastery for my crit also do I have enough haste. also my character shows 12.67 haste not 7.30
    You should not reforge out of mastery, you have 50% which for us is the "go to" percentage. If you feel comfortable about mana regen in fights, I would consider you going Intellect + stat gems, spirit (purple) - mastery (orange) is what I prefer. I don't look at my haste breakpoints too much after I got the first one down. I do not know if the second breakpoint is still bugged at this point, as our totems do not seem to work properly with the second breakpoint at this time. From own experience you should aim for a stable 50% Mastery (more is welcome with gear) and reforge for full Crit. Resurgence will be a awesome regen for you, which means you can get some more Intellect from gems. Also Ancestral Awakening is pretty welcome.

    Also try learning to switch between Telluric Turrents/Water Shield glyphs, they will be a magnificent regen boost then the HST glyph which I find rather pointless to have. Garalon + Water Shield glyph is a win for example.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by tibbee View Post
    Completely incorrect advice.

    (1) There are no diminishing returns on mastery. 100 Mastery rating gives the same increase to your healing on low health targets whether you have 10% or 70% mastery. The value of mastery is 100% linear.
    (2) The 50% mastery number is meaningless. You need to decide whether Crit or Mastery is a superior stat for you based on the damage patterns you will be healing. Once you make that determination, you want to stack that stat no matter what percentage your mastery or crit is at; both stats are fully linear. Stacking mastery to a certain percentage than switching to Crit makes no theorycrafting sense whatsoever.
    (3) The 871 Haste breakpoint with Ancestral Swiftness is mandatory, but it's also pretty much automatic. The breakpoint for Healing Stream and Healing Tide totem at 3764 is currently bugged, with extra totem ticks happening randomly at different haste levels. Even if it was working properly, you probably wouldn't want to stack that much haste. With the breakpoints random, there is 0 reason to.

    Here is how I would evaluate stat priority.

    1. Spirit - Keep on stacking it. You want to gem pure Spirit and never gem Intellect, because you get 2 Spirit for 1 INT from gems. The more regen you have, the more you can weave in expensive single target bombs and Chain Heal.
    2. Intellect - Does more output than the secondary stats, but the priority of INT is kind of irrelevant, because you shouldn't gem for it, and you can't reforge in or out of it anyway.
    3. Either Mastery or Crit - pick one or the other. The math says that if you are using a 3% increased critical effect meta gem (which you should be), the point at which 1 point of Mastery is more output than 1 point of Crit is 64% health for AOE healing and 45% health for single target direct heals. You have to evaluate how low your raid sits and determine whether Crit or Mastery is better for you. If you are close to the thresholds, Crit will perform better, because it also increases regen through Resurgence. In most cases, (at least in 25 man raiding), the raid doesn't sit low enough long enough to warrant stacking Mastery over Crit.
    4. The other of Mastery or Crit
    5. Haste - Haste has very little value outside of breakpoints, because we have so much inherent single target burst with Tidal Waves (1.5 second GHWs with limited haste from gear) and because so much of the rest of our output is heavily cooldown limited (Healing Rain, HST, etc). Haste outside of breakpoints only benefits you if you have the regen to take full advantage of the extra casts you can get off. The first break point is trivial (with Ancestral Swiftness specced) and the rest are not worth reaching, giving haste very poor value for us.
    This is so far off. The DR is about the player's health and not the mastery in itself. It nerfs itself as you gain more and more so if you get higher than 50% mastery you will not benefit from it. There is a point where Crit will do better than Mastery and that's at that breakpoint.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Taoforums View Post
    This is so far off. The DR is about the player's health and not the mastery in itself. It nerfs itself as you gain more and more so if you get higher than 50% mastery you will not benefit from it. There is a point where Crit will do better than Mastery and that's at that breakpoint.
    You don't understand how the Deep Healing mastery works. The percent that you see on your character screen for mastery has nothing to do with the player's health. That percentage is the maximum amount by which your baseline healing (determined by spell power, etc) will be increased by. To get the maximum mastery healing increase shown on the character screen, the target that you are healing needs to be at 1 HP. For all values between 1 HP and 100% HP, it scales. The percentage by which it scales is pre-determined and linear has nothing to do with your mastery rating. What your mastery rating controls is the maximum percentage by which your baseline spells can be increased by.

    For example.

    Let's say my Greater Healing Wave hits for 60,000 on a full health target. If I have 40% mastery, it will heal for 84,000 on a player at 1 HP. If I have 80% mastery, it will heal for 108,000 on a player at 1 HP.

    There are no breakpoints whatsoever with mastery and there are no diminishing returns; it's a commonly stated fallacy by people who don't understand the mechanics.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-30 at 12:14 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by PaintOnASign View Post
    I'm having a really difficult time agreeing with many of your points.

    1. Yes, stacking Spirit is a good idea. But you shouldn't always stack it. This isn't a no-brainer kind of situation. If you're comfortable with your mana regen (as in, you can end an encounter without going OOM), then you should stop stacking it and start gemming for Intellect for better throughput. If you're ending fights (and of course I mean raid encounters) with more than ~20% mana left, then you can definitely afford to start building more Intellect. This is only going to get easier as we get higher in tiers. Stacking too much Spirit is a complete waste.

    2. Again, you should gem for it when you're comfortable with your Spirit because you can't reforge into it.

    3. Makes no sense to completely disregard one stat over the other. Granted, its almost impossible to not have our Mastery pretty high, even with reforging it off, but it still shouldn't be completely avoided. Neither should Crit. Totaltotemic covered this better than I ever will.

    4. See #3

    5. This I agree with. And it should be noted that the second breakpoint (3764 Haste) isn't currently worth reaching for if you have to reforge/gem for it, the reason being that latency seems to screw around with the additional tick we're trying to get. It's completely unreliable right now and has drastically been reduced in effectiveness.

    Is there anything else to support your opinion other than personal playstyle? Much of what you say seems to contradict the established theorycrafting, I'm just wondering if maybe we're getting our information from different sources.

    If you are comfortable with your regen, sure you have the option of reducing the amount of Spirit that you have. However, you also have the option of rectifying the situation by
    (1) Using a higher HPS spell selection and be more aggressive. Until you are at the point where you can pretty much spam Chain Heal and/or Greater Healing Wave (possibly healing Surge, but that is completely unrealistic) in between Healing Rain/Healing Stream Totem cooldowns, you can make use of more regen. In most cases, keeping the regen and using more spells and more effective spells does more for HPS than dropping Spirit and making the spells you cast hit harder (because of the typical profile of overhealing, etc).
    (2) Extra mana is not the end of the world. Fights aren't 100% predictable whether during progression or on farm, and "normally" having 20% mana at the end of a fight can quickly turn to being OOM during the burn phase if things go sideways. There is value in being able to prevent wipes and having a reasonable reserve
    (3) Factor in the effect of Mana Tide on the other healers in your raid. If stacking Spirit is at all close in terms of throughput to dropping it for INT (and I contend it is better most of the time), you should stack it past the point where other healing specs drop it. The amount of Spirit you have effects the amount of MTT regen for all of your healers, and especially in a 25 man raid, the extra regen and throughput it brings given to 5-7 healers will normally outweigh any personal throughput increases you could achieve by dropping Spirit.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-30 at 12:19 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    Oh boy..

    1) While the increase itself does not diminish, the fact that it keeps increasing from the base and ignores previous values DOES make it diminish. Example:

    You heal for 100 HPS. 1% Crit will increase your 100 HPS by 1% on average, bringing you to 101 HPS. If you get 1% more Crit, it increases the 100 HPS by 1%, not the 101 HPS. This results in a 0.990099% increase in total healing, which is less than the 1% you got before. The same works for Mastery (as it is also a percentage based modifier on the base value that ignores previous levels of the percentage). Due to the fact that Crit and Mastery diminish on separate returns, having 5,000 Crit rating and 5,000 Mastery rating (assuming 0 base value) would net higher results than 10,000 of one or the other.

    2) As per the above, stacking one stat or the other is a bad idea as they both diminish but also scale with each other. Due to differing base values and natures of the stats, it makes sense to have a certain amount of mastery before switching to Crit because being able to save someone from death without relying on RNG is generally important for healing. Once you can reliably save someone, then you can beef up the stat which will provide more overall healing at that point, which will be Crit (which also provides some nice mana regen). As gear levels get higher, we may want to go to 55% or 60% Mastery at some point, but 50% is a good start for heroics through the first tier of raiding.

    Please keep in mind that this is something that has been known since the very beginning of Cataclysm, the mechanics of Crit and Mastery have not changed, and stacking one to the complete abandon of the other is just plain stupid.
    Sure, all secondary stats (with the exception of haste) decrease your total percentage of output by less the more you stack them. However, it's a logical fallacy, because what matters is the total increase to your throughput, not the percentage of your total throughput. As you get more gear, the relative increase that X of a stat gives you decreases. However, unless you are dealing with either breakpoints or diminishing returns, it doesn't change your stat priority. Neither mastery nor crit have either breakpoints or diminishing returns.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by tibbee View Post
    You don't understand how the Deep Healing mastery works. The percent that you see on your character screen for mastery has nothing to do with the player's health. That percentage is the maximum amount by which your baseline healing (determined by spell power, etc) will be increased by. To get the maximum mastery healing increase shown on the character screen, the target that you are healing needs to be at 1 HP. For all values between 1 HP and 100% HP, it scales. The percentage by which it scales is pre-determined and linear has nothing to do with your mastery rating. What your mastery rating controls is the maximum percentage by which your baseline spells can be increased by.

    For example.

    Let's say my Greater Healing Wave hits for 60,000 on a full health target. If I have 40% mastery, it will heal for 84,000 on a player at 1 HP. If I have 80% mastery, it will heal for 108,000 on a player at 1 HP.
    Yea, now what about the second heal on the same target? Do you SEE the issue now? the more mastery you have the less benefit mastery has on subsequent heals on the same target. thats why mastery nerfs itself. Sure, the second heal will still be higher (who knows about the third or fourth tho?) but you get proportionally less from mastery than from different stats at that point.

  16. #16
    Requoting from a previous thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by Blindlad View Post
    Because you can't decisively say that stat A>B by this much in healing, the provided weights are generalised and don't fulfill any conditions that you might need to fulfill, they are just guidelines.

    the way I approach my gearing at the moment:
    • Stack the crap out of spirit
    • Start with haste, since it is debatably our worst stat. What is the minimum you can have after reforging down? How close is this value towards our softcaps and which one should you go for to maximise the benefit of haste? (AS: 871, 3764* (htt/hst breakpoints are currently bugged); No AS: 1345, 2017, 3039)
    • Based on the decided above haste value and the boss you are progression on decide on your talent choice between Ancestral Swiftness/Elemental Mastery
    • Leave both crit and mastery at their default gear values, socket with 1 particular type of green gem (160 spirit + 160 crit for me atm)
    • From there see the relation between your mastery and crit and try to tailor them to what you want. My current preference is mastery to about 50%-55% and then crit.
    Healing with different classes since Vanilla
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Higgs/advanced

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarevokcz View Post
    Yea, now what about the second heal on the same target? Do you SEE the issue now? the more mastery you have the less benefit mastery has on subsequent heals on the same target. thats why mastery nerfs itself. Sure, the second heal will still be higher (who knows about the third or fourth tho?) but you get proportionally less from mastery than from different stats at that point.
    The second heal on the same target is generally an irrelevant issue, unless you are talking about gearing around tank healing. Except for tanks, you rarely cast back to back single target direct heals on the same target. If you were gearing around tank healing, you would probably want to heavily devalue mastery, because the nature of tank health is that you want them topped off as much as possible, making our mastery weak.

    On top of that, the great majority of our output comes from blanket raid and smart heals. For 25 man resto shaman, on most fights, Healing Rain/Healing Stream Totem/Healing Tide/Earthliving/Riptide combine for 80% or more of our total output. These are mostly small ticking HoT type heals, and the amount of them going off reduces the impact of multiple heals on the same target and reduces the RNG factor of crit. It isn't worth gearing around single target direct heals, unless you are tank healing (very unlikely that a Shaman would be a dedicated tank healer) or you find yourself casting them significantly more often.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by tibbee View Post
    The second heal on the same target is generally an irrelevant issue, unless you are talking about gearing around tank healing. Except for tanks, you rarely cast back to back single target direct heals on the same target. If you were gearing around tank healing, you would probably want to heavily devalue mastery, because the nature of tank health is that you want them topped off as much as possible, making our mastery weak.

    On top of that, the great majority of our output comes from blanket raid and smart heals. For 25 man resto shaman, on most fights, Healing Rain/Healing Stream Totem/Healing Tide/Earthliving/Riptide combine for 80% or more of our total output. These are mostly small ticking HoT type heals, and the amount of them going off reduces the impact of multiple heals on the same target and reduces the RNG factor of crit. It isn't worth gearing around single target direct heals, unless you are tank healing (very unlikely that a Shaman would be a dedicated tank healer) or you find yourself casting them significantly more often.
    It doesnt matter if its GHW for 108k or 84k or HR for 10,8k or 8,4k or even if its smart heal it always diminishes itself on subsequent heals. And of course when you are 10man healer, you have to be very flexible in all aspects of healing, especially when half the fights are 2-healed. Of course single target healing isnt only for tanks, but you wouldnt know that as a 25man raider.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by tibbee View Post
    Sure, all secondary stats (with the exception of haste) decrease your total percentage of output by less the more you stack them. However, it's a logical fallacy, because what matters is the total increase to your throughput, not the percentage of your total throughput. As you get more gear, the relative increase that X of a stat gives you decreases. However, unless you are dealing with either breakpoints or diminishing returns, it doesn't change your stat priority. Neither mastery nor crit have either breakpoints or diminishing returns.
    It's not a logical fallacy, it's MATH. If a stat's benefit diminishes in relation to other stats, how could it NOT affect stat weights? Yes, of course the percentage added to total throughput matters. If I do 100k HPS and gain 1% healing, that will end up at more total throughput than a 0.5% increase, this is basic elementary addition here. Yes, every stat in the game technically has diminishing returns, that's why you don't see any class anywhere that gain a benefit from 100,000 rating of one stat and 0 of another. What we know as "diminishing returns" (dodge and parry) exist because if they didn't, they'd get more and more effective as covering the last 1% of the combat table reduces damage by 100% as opposed to the first 1%.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    It's not a logical fallacy, it's MATH. If a stat's benefit diminishes in relation to other stats, how could it NOT affect stat weights? Yes, of course the percentage added to total throughput matters. If I do 100k HPS and gain 1% healing, that will end up at more total throughput than a 0.5% increase, this is basic elementary addition here. Yes, every stat in the game technically has diminishing returns, that's why you don't see any class anywhere that gain a benefit from 100,000 rating of one stat and 0 of another. What we know as "diminishing returns" (dodge and parry) exist because if they didn't, they'd get more and more effective as covering the last 1% of the combat table reduces damage by 100% as opposed to the first 1%.
    There are no diminishing returns on Resto mastery like there is on dodge and parry; you can stack it to over 100% increased healing on low health targets. There are no diminishing returns on Crit either at least until the unreachable 100% spell crit (or possibly until 65% spell crit, at which point Tidal Waves+4 pc would put Healing Surge at 100% crit).

    It's also not currently reasonably possible to stack a stat to the point that the relative diminishing returns is enough to significantly alter stat priority. Reforging fully into Crit or Mastery is only going to increase either by a 7-8% margin. You also get so much "free" mastery rating from the 3000 mastery raid buff that it is next to impossible to get any other stat so significantly higher than Mastery that any type of relative returns becomes a factor.

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