[Guardian] Vengeance - Some clarification

[Deleted]

Hello fellow druids!

First of all, sorry if I'm bringing a old topic back to life, but I'm really confused about some issues with the vengeance hotfix from 28 September (I know its old and I was aware of it... but now that I want to tweak the addons I use for some extra tracking, I ran into this "problem")

Currently vengeance works as

0.02 * UnmitigatedDamage + OldVengeance * OldVengeanceSecondsRemaining / 20 "

...and Hotfix from 28 September set this:

Vengeance now ignores overkill damage."

So... I have a wekaaura as a vengeance tracker, a plain and simple number... the tweak I want would be something like the stagger from the brewmaster monk... "light vengeance", "medium vengeance" or "high vengeance" sorta thing... for to have a "idea" when to blow up dps CD's and stuff related to vengeance =)

So... as I can tell, we don't have a hard cap on vengeance, yet the hotfix set a cap on the maximum amount of vengeance we can gain per swing ( something like 2% of Max Hp)...

So, I'm curious... can I set my vengeance to be "light", "medium" and "High" or that will fail completely?

[Williee]

Not sure about weakauras, but I use tellmewhen for my buffs/debuffs. I track vengenance on it as well, "show variable text" and it shows your actual vengeance on the tooltip updated on an interval aka "34k attack power or 60k attack power or etc". Still not sure on what you are asking but hope this helps if you use tellmewhen.

[Deleted]

I have that already, what I want to know is if there's a cap to the vengeance AP value, so I can create boundaries in order to know "how high" my vengeance is...

e.g. lets assume max vengeance is 30 000... I can set "low vengeance" for 0 to 10 000, "mild vengeance" from 10 000 to 20 000 and "high vengeance" from 20 000 to 30 000.

Now, if there's no cap anymore ( like it seems) (and like it was before the 28 September hotfix), then I cannot do this thing... but if there's a cap... then I have some boundaries to work on.
I assume the cap is given by [swing time (of boss)x the amount of damage of the swing]+damage of any special ability/ 20sec-(current time) and all those inputs capped at 2% of my total Hp (since 28/9 capped the max amount damage in calculations by ignoring overkill damage)...

As you can see I'm not trying to track the vengeance I have (as I can do that already with weakauras) I'm trying to ask for any insight of the vengeance mechanic in order to track my vengeance better.

thanks for the help!

[Braindwen]

cap to the vengeance AP value,

no such thing. It's technically limited by the boss's DPS (36% of unmitigated DPS for melee swings is the expected amount of vengeance, 90% of unmitigated DPS for stuff that ignores armor), and of course your healing input (if you die, you lose your vengeance), but there's no actual cap based on your health or anything.

As an aside, that "ignores overkill" hotfix did practically nothing. The only time it would ever come into play is if you are A: below your maximum health, B: take a hit larger than your current health, and C: have an absorb effect which saves your life.

[Williee]

As form what brain said, there is no cap to the vengeance anymore. I have had fights where bosses only give me 20-40k vengeance while other fights I've hit over 100k vengeance. Also, if there are adds, I can shoot up to 200k+ vengenance on certain fights (ex- H windlord and empress adds). So to set a low mild and high vengeance buff icon, I would expect this to be a boss to boss basis tracker which sounds very difficult and a hassle to setup.

[Deleted]

Hmm have you considered Vengeance Status in stead of Weak Aura just to track Vengeance? Cause I switched to Vengeance Status mid Cata and I really like it. It shows a little bar with the numbers in it and it also records the last segment or fight.

[Arielle]

There were a couple of hotfixes to Vengeance.

The first was to make it so that autoattacks that were avoided (Parry/Dodge) still granted Vengeance based on the normal formula.

The second was to change Vengeance granted from specials, and melee attacks that didn't conform to the 1.5s autoattack swing. The change here was to make the "floor" value divided by 60 instead of 1.5 for specials, and by attack speed insetad of 1.5 for melee swings.

So basically standing in stuff that would normally kill you no longer gives you insane Vengeance.

You could set up an aura or something to trigger on different values of Vengeance. However those arbitrary values are pretty meaningless. Each boss has a specific type of AM you should be prioritiziing over the others - and this is not related to Vengeance at all. Rather the kind of incoming damage determines how you should be using your abilities.

[Deleted]

Hmm have you considered Vengeance Status in stead of Weak Aura just to track Vengeance? Cause I switched to Vengeance Status mid Cata and I really like it. It shows a little bar with the numbers in it and it also records the last segment or fight.

One of the big problems with vengeance status that I found (and made me abandon it) is that the bar has a maximum based on the older mechanics (last time I saw) so... it gives the amount of vengeance U have, but sometimes U hit a cap that its no longer there...

@Arielle: Just as I tough... there's no way to predict when the vengeance value is going to be extreme. even in a boss-per-boss basis.


What annoys me most is that my buddy tank, a prot pally is topping the charts in pretty much every boss (Yeah, our dps suck that bad :P) and I as a OT can't even get close (nor as I expect to) yet on fights like will of the emperor/ when I MT... I can't still reach his values... and that annoys me.
Ofc I tend to take less damage than him (since im either crit + mastery/dodge prios) (and he is hit/exp capped - as he says its of the uttermost importance for his mitigation)

I find that for me to go hit/exp cap and prio crit Ill be hitting 10% more attacks... and i don't believe that change would cover the sheer dps my pally friend is outputting.

are palas dps OP? =/

[Arielle]

are palas dps OP? =/

No, you're just not getting Hit and Expertise, which are the best DPS stats by a pretty wide margin.

[Williee]

I usually let my dk tank things first while I use hotw cat/wrath spam to burst out as much dps as I can. Assuming we both have equal vengeance, he usually beats me out on single target dps while aoe, bears should dominate. I run maximizing my crit, and maintain hit and soft exp cap. I take extra expertise beyond soft cap but I do not purposely go for.

My issue with vengeance isn't who can pull more dps, I find the issue with taunt swapping where one tank still has 70-100k vengeance versus the other tank who has 10-30k vengenance. When it comes to tight berserk timed fights, where tanks has to maximize dps as well, it just leads to a lot of "O shit I pulled taunt again" moments. Not sure if it happens to anybody else. So we end up using salvs on the non-tanking tank so he can make out with as much dps with his high vengeance before it drops or/and we hold off a bit until the other tank gains more vengeance.

I haven't tanked with a pally but all I can say is, I love symbiosis concencrete for H Bladelord, accounts for 3-5% of my damage

Another thing if you are trying to push more dps, however this comes with a lot of situation awareness and healer dependability, use maul a lot more. Of course don't die because your rage starved. Maul doesn't seem like much, but from my first progression kills to my farm kills, everyone has adapted to the fights which allows the tanks to push more dps versus survivabilty. I pull more dps per week as I feel more comfortable with my dmg intake and this allows me to use maul a lot more then I did on progression.