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  1. #21
    Is it too strong outside of cooldowns like Ascendance, AG, or EM? It may be I just don't have enough PvP Power, but I find Healing Surge isn't too big of a heal as Elemental. I can top myself off fairly quickly (2-3 Healing Surges) but that is only if I don't get silenced in the process. With Ascendance and AG I'm indestructible but again, I can still be silenced/CC'd and anybody is strong when they blow CDs. Without any CDs, I don't see myself as very strong.

  2. #22
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rahdik View Post
    Is it too strong outside of cooldowns like Ascendance, AG, or EM? It may be I just don't have enough PvP Power, but I find Healing Surge isn't too big of a heal as Elemental. I can top myself off fairly quickly (2-3 Healing Surges) but that is only if I don't get silenced in the process. With Ascendance and AG I'm indestructible but again, I can still be silenced/CC'd and anybody is strong when they blow CDs. Without any CDs, I don't see myself as very strong.
    Being able to top yourself or someone else off in 2-3 Healing Surges, especially as reliably as you can with being able to proc Clearcasting almost on demand, is "too strong". That's negating all the enemy's damage in 2.5-4 seconds of healing. Sure, they can interrupt it and such, but it shouldn't be that strong in the first place.

    Elemental has OTHER issues, which is why this hurts so much, but those other issues need to be addressed separately.

  3. #23
    If you're also saying any damage taken while healing yourself is irrelevant than I really do not have enough PvP Power or Resilience. 2-3 HS for me is assuming only zero or DoT damage.

  4. #24
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rahdik View Post
    If you're also saying any damage taken while healing yourself is irrelevant than I really do not have enough PvP Power or Resilience. 2-3 HS for me is assuming only zero or DoT damage.
    Hybrids aren't supposed to be able to heal themselves through burst DPS. That's the issue; they can.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Chainreactor View Post
    Enhancement is trailing behind all other melee classes and could use some love to be on par with the rest
    Sure, if you don't include WW Monks, Death Knights, Rogues or Rets as melee classes.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    He may have thought the asker meant "compensation" as in "buffs to healing to make up for the nerf". The intent is to nerf hybrid healing. It should be nice, it shouldn't be good or strong. It IS too strong right now, so I can understand the nerf.

    It makes more sense to me than the Totem stuff, anyway.
    It makes sense, a hybrid DPS shouldn't be able to function as a replacement healer. However, hybrid healing is also hybrid survivability. I can't speak for other hybrids, but my ability to survive in PvP is already incredibly delicate and dependent on my ability to burn MW procs. So again, I hope Blizzard doesn't force this change without vetting the effect on every spec and compensating accordingly.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by nazrakin View Post
    It makes sense, a hybrid DPS shouldn't be able to function as a replacement healer. However, hybrid healing is also hybrid survivability. I can't speak for other hybrids, but my ability to survive in PvP is already incredibly delicate and dependent on my ability to burn MW procs. So again, I hope Blizzard doesn't force this change without vetting the effect on every spec and compensating accordingly.
    This. From the moment bliz decided to give self heals to everyone, hydrid or not and ppl get used to it, seeing an elemental shaman for example casting 3 healing surges for max hps seems too strong. But its not. Cause "too strong" for me is the abilities that will make you NOT get damaged so much in the first place like defensive abilities, bubbles, and escape mechanisms. Well unfortunately shaman dps specs lack these, or they r too weak compared to other classes. So no, shaman dps self heals are not too strong, there are not even enough. I would rather see a self heal nerf ALONG with some new effective defensive abilities, or a significant buff on the existing ones. But just nerfing our only true surviving mechanism will plant dps shamans even deeper on the ground..

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Mimilijin View Post
    First of all there is no balance in this game and never will be in the way it works now..
    This is what people always say about this game and every other game, it's bullshit.

  9. #29
    GC: It's intended to be a nerf not a balance agnostic change.

    As an aside, weird usage of the word 'agnostic' (= unknowable) by GC. He probably meant something like "...not a zero-sum balance change"

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by CapM View Post
    This is what people always say about this game and every other game, it's bullshit.
    No, it really isn't. A game with differently functioning classes will NEVER be balanced. It's literally impossible. You might as well accept it. But still, it could be a hell of a lot better than it is now, there's no denying that.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by CapM View Post
    This is what people always say about this game and every other game, it's bullshit.
    Perhaps there is balance to a point in WoW but it is quite clear it is light years away from being fully balanced. We aren't talking "oh there's a 3-5% difference here that's pretty close" type of deal. No. Some classes are miles and miles away from others and it will always be that way, it is clearly the design intent. They are not stupid. It is not an accident. I would venture to say that they think it adds to the flavor of the game to have the hierarchy of classes change every patch to keep things "fresh" and to rotate classes around for who is the best at whatever every now and then. Does that suck for people who care about PvP and or balance? Yes. Really that's all I can logically come up with looking at the whole thing and it doesn't look to be changing anytime soon.
    Last edited by Turkey One; 2012-11-26 at 11:35 AM. Reason: typo

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Shaman hybrid healing IS too strong. Maybe not as strong as shadow priest, but it's crazy strong. I understand why they're nerfing this, when I was able to, as Elemental, spam my 2s partner to full health in 2-3 Healing Surges consistently.

    Other issues with the specs are entirely separate from this particular issue, and this is not a targeted nerf at Shaman; it's a balance shift for all hybrids, since hybrids are intended to have SOME healing potential, but not STRONG healing potential. And really; Enhancement is doing fine. It's been fine in PvP, and is doing very well in PvE. I doubt this change (which isn't as egregious as people are making it out to be) will ruin Enhancement for PvP. The issue is primarily Elemental, and while it's going to hurt Elemental, the issue with that spec isn't that their healing isn't strong enough. Because the off-healing IS strong.
    Fine does not mean good. I know you're an expert in elemental but please don't make poorly backed up statements about a spec you don't play a lot.
    Yes enhancement is 'fine' but it's always been the second choice in pvp, you would rather have a feral, ret or warrior in your 3v3 atm.
    If you have played enhancement in pvp for at least a year you know it's being carried by it's healing, not it's cc or damage.
    Pure dps classes already have good selfhealing, if they nerf hybrid healing across the board some of these classes will have better selfhealing than enhance. Not for long fights but in arena where the first 15 seconds are really important this will matter.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Being able to top yourself or someone else off in 2-3 Healing Surges, especially as reliably as you can with being able to proc Clearcasting almost on demand, is "too strong". That's negating all the enemy's damage in 2.5-4 seconds of healing. Sure, they can interrupt it and such, but it shouldn't be that strong in the first place.

    Elemental has OTHER issues, which is why this hurts so much, but those other issues need to be addressed separately.
    How about they adress those issues TOGETHER with nerfing the shit out of hybrid healing and totems instead of their usual "two seasons later", hmm? Why do we always have to be nerfed and be garbage for months before they give us some small goodies so we are less of a garbage, but still on the low end of the pvp pole? 5.1 is just around a corner and what do we get? ele being dumped on once again, while already being pretty bad in areas in the first place. Why does this remind me of 4.1 so much? Also while this was bad, atleast I had the satisfaction of you being wrong again for half a beta with your "ele will be fine in pvp with new talents" BS.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Turkey One View Post
    Perhaps there is balance to a point in WoW but it is quite clear it is light years away from being fully balanced. We aren't talking "oh there's a 3-5% difference here that's pretty close" type of deal. No. Some classes are miles and miles away from others and it will always be that way, it is clearly the design intent.
    I disagree, of course it's not meant to be imbalanced. The only "imbalance" I see, is that some classes have much more complicated rotations than others, making it harder for those classes to perform on the same level.

  15. #35
    So a group of paid professionals have balanced the game or come close to it a grand total of zero times in eight years and that isn't intentional? If you think it's balanced right now we're clearly not going anywhere ever with this conversation and honestly this is somewhat offtopic to this thread so I suppose it should end here as I'm not trying to derail the thread and take it away from shaman buff/nerfs specifically.
    Last edited by Turkey One; 2012-11-26 at 01:03 PM.

  16. #36
    The only way to balance this game is to treat spells in different ways, PVE and PVP. There is no other way.

    Thinking as a programmer, this is obviusly do-able! The problem is that you have to re-analyze everything, changing formulas and maybe spells' behaviour to make everything balanced. This is time-consuming, ofc.. but can be achieved!
    The real point is that they do not want to act like this. They prefer to waste lots of year to balance something that could not be balanced instead of changing tecnical solution.
    This can be done by working on targets.

    To relate on the topic. Hybrids heal too much? No problem!
    Example:
    I'm the hybrid enha shammy...MW is at 5 stacks....
    target: a friend, effect: 30% reduced healing or base healing reduced based on target
    target: myself, effect: full healing
    You can even use the PVP flag as modifier...

    And this can be done to damage too...everything become more dynamic.

    Let's say we have 3 player fighting in a death match style duel.

    We have a enha shammy, a destro lock and a shadow priest.
    Example:
    Dynamic Target Spells effect activates 'cause we are flagged for PVP!

    When enha is targeting warlock he does 10% more damage.
    When enha is targeting priest he does 10% more damage.
    When enha is self targeting nothing changes.
    When spriest is targeting the shammy he does 20% less healing
    When spriest is targeting the lock he does 30% less healing
    When spriest is self targeting he does 30% less healing.

    ...
    You can even work on single ability.
    Let's say the dmg of chaos bolt is appropriate vs warriors but incredibly OP vs fire mage!
    Then when
    Lock is targeting warrior chaos bolt dmg remain the same
    Lock is targeting the mage, chaos bolt will do 20% less damage.

    This is how it must be done to balance everything, from my point of view.
    I know, it's a very hard work to start with...but in the future it solves a lot of time for senseless balancing, wasted time to change a spell 5 times in 2 weeks and the very important thing...Player base is happier because game content is splitted and balanced as it should!

    Really not that hard to achieve as a 10 years old experience programmer paid to code games!
    If it's IT, everything can be achieved...it's just a matter of boolean functions and switch(Class)!

    The good thing is that every data is already in the game and can be treaten without too much trouble... you just need to manage more datas when healing and damage numbers are being calculated. Just add a modifier based on target (class and spec) that modifies final values.
    Last edited by Bayn; 2012-11-26 at 02:15 PM.

  17. #37
    The only way to balance this game is to treat spells in different ways, PVE and PVP. There is no other way.
    Blizzard allready stated they won't do this, because it would add an absurd amount of complexity on a game that is already hard enough to understand. Adding lots of number tweaks everywhere wouldn't achieve much in pvp balance (the main issue being the huge skill range in the community, and the fact that players expect blizzard to tune every spec at every skill level), but would make it even harder for new player to understand their class and all the other possible spec they might encounter in pvp (and their cc, offensive/defensive cds, procs/cast to watch out for, etc...), and therefore greatly diminish the "attractiveness" of pvp for new players.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Bethan View Post
    Blizzard allready stated they won't do this, because it would add an absurd amount of complexity on a game that is already hard enough to understand. Adding lots of number tweaks everywhere wouldn't achieve much in pvp balance (the main issue being the huge skill range in the community, and the fact that players expect blizzard to tune every spec at every skill level), but would make it even harder for new player to understand their class and all the other possible spec they might encounter in pvp (and their cc, offensive/defensive cds, procs/cast to watch out for, etc...), and therefore greatly diminish the "attractiveness" of pvp for new players.
    Reducing (for example) healing done to other players than your self will make pvp too complex for new pvpers to understand? Give me a break here, pvp already requires experience and skills, trying to balance pvp will make it easier, not harder. "Balanced" pvp is nothing else than: more experience, skills and gear = better results. The problem wow pvpers experience is that the gap between classes and specs is huge, and blizzard keep making it worst.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Turkey One View Post
    So a group of paid professionals have balanced the game or come close to it a grand total of zero times in eight years and that isn't intentional? If you think it's balanced right now we're clearly not going anywhere ever with this conversation and honestly this is somewhat offtopic to this thread so I suppose it should end here as I'm not trying to derail the thread and take it away from shaman buff/nerfs specifically.
    I'm confused on what you think makes paid professionals so special? I work with ludicrously over-paid professionals, and most of them are either lazy, or incompetent idiots more interested in doing enough to get paid then doing a good job.

    Why would game designers be any different?

    On topic, elemental shaman is already struggling in pvp and a nerf to totems and to off-healing just shows a complete lack of understanding of this. Enh is in a much better spot then when I played it for the entirety of Cata but I'm not sure where it sits right now... I don't see these as positive things or necessary at all for a spec that definitely is not overpowered.
    Last edited by desert-wind; 2012-11-27 at 12:19 PM.

  20. #40
    Bloodsail Admiral zenga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by desert-wind View Post
    I'm confused on what you think makes paid professionals so special? I work with ludicrously over-paid professionals, and most of them are either lazy, or incompetent idiots more interested in doing enough to get paid then doing a good job.

    Why would game designers be any different?
    Because the gaming industry is one of those atypical industries were many professionals have a passion for gaming, something consultants in a bank tend to have less. (same goes for quite a lot of artists, who regardless from their paycheck only want to deliver a perfect performance)

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