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  1. #1
    Mechagnome jtmzac's Avatar
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    [Frost] Frost BiS Gear Trinket and Bomb Comparison

    I've been doing some sims to work out the best bomb/trinket combination in bis gear for frost. I've made a little spreadsheet to show all the results here:
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...U0zRWRmZkd4QUE

    All the sims were done with 100k iterations and averaged a 0.02% dps error.

    There's some interesting results including that frost bomb beats nether tempest on a patchwerk fight and nether tempest with LotC and EoT is the best for a helter skelter fight.

    For frost I highly recommend simming your own gear to find your best trinket priority as it doesn't seem to follow any fixed order from what I've seen from simming bis gear and my own gear.

  2. #2
    Frost bomb will out dps NT and LB on single target assuming you get the executing quite near perfect casting FB every 12 seconds...

    Made some 1:1 comparison (in my gear) between the 3 bombs here:
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post19192152

  3. #3
    Read your responses on the other thread, you reccomend frost bomb for single target then?

  4. #4
    Noooo... I am saying that accoording to the figures IF you can get 5 Frost bombs per minute you will yield better results than using NT or LB

    Nevermind that constantly producing 5 frost bombs per minute is going to be some feat, but on a patchwerk fight for NT to come out ahead on dps over frost bomb... sounds strange to me...

  5. #5
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    It's not difficult to have 5 Frost bomb per minutes, since is CD is reduced by haste ...

    Hum, I Have some difficulty with accronyme:
    RoY : relic of Yu'lon
    EoT : essence of terror
    LoC : Light of Cosmos

    How can you sim LoC with Frost Bomb since it isn't a DOT ???
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  6. #6
    Moderator Shangalar's Avatar
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    It is not possible to proc Light of the Cosmos in Frost spec with Frost Bomb, that's why the results are so low for those combinations - the proc isn't activating.

  7. #7
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    Why don't you have sim Living Bomb ?
    And what L1 did you use for Helter Skelter ? Ice Flows would have been great with Frost Bomb maybe with some change in the action list.
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by namliam View Post
    Frost bomb will out dps NT and LB on single target assuming you get the executing quite near perfect casting FB every 12 seconds...

    Made some 1:1 comparison (in my gear) between the 3 bombs here:
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post19192152
    That math is not using LB early refresh to get more LB explosions and that way more damage from LB. Explosion damage > lost tick end of LB dot. Though I have no idea if its dps gain or loss overall as refreshing LB early also uses bit more GCD's to recast LB over fight.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Nathyiel View Post
    It's not difficult to have 5 Frost bomb per minutes, since is CD is reduced by haste ...
    Beg to differ, have you ever looked at it?
    The CD is reduced by haste, but the CD isnt activated untill you finish the cast..... Cast time is 1.4 seconds, cooldown 9.3. This alone makes getting it on the target more often than 10.7 seconds impossible.

    This only gives you a 1 second window to get it on the target, at 13 seconds it is a VERY slim dps increase and at 14 seconds its a dps loss to LB.
    Not to mention the slight difference in play style between FB and LB because of the difference of # of casts and cast time vs instant cast.

    What hasnt been figured into this though is that LB has an 11 second duration and FB is 12 seconds-ish. which means that every 10 rotations or 2 minutes you have casted 10 FB and 11 LB.... so that should add some little bit of extra dps to the tune of 1 Fireball every 3 minutes or so, which is 75000 / 180 = 416 dps.

    The same logic might be applied to NT refreshing as long as you do let it drop off you gain fireballs by saving the GCDs on the long run.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-26 at 11:52 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by sahtila View Post
    That math is not using LB early refresh to get more LB explosions and that way more damage from LB. Explosion damage > lost tick end of LB dot. Though I have no idea if its dps gain or loss overall as refreshing LB early also uses bit more GCD's to recast LB over fight.
    What you are not understanding is it does include the early refresh.... when you refresh your LB "properly", which is to say within the last tick, you get the explosion as a bonus yes...
    But, your new LB lasts this ongoing tick + the normal duration just like any dot does, just like Ignite ticks 3 times for 6 seconds, not 2 times for 4 seconds (costing us quite some Combustion damage btw)

    All in all refreshing LB "early" as you say, doesnt lose any GCD and doesnt gain or lose any dps, try it out on a dummy if you do not believe me.

    But please please please, lets centralize the discussion around Mage bombs into that one thread?
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post19192152

  10. #10
    Trinket-wise, I'll be interested to see where the Shock-Charger Medallion lands in terms of trinket ranks. Elegon trinket has a short ICD, so I believe it'll still win out with Tempest, but Frost Bomb frost finally has a good pre-Sha of Fear Heroic option in SCM. It might be even better then Heroic EoT for Fbomb Frost since it doesn't have to proc. It should be right up there with it.

    http://ptr.wowdb.com/items/93259-sho...rger-medallion

    Really well itemized for all specs, and that's a chunk of front-loaded, no proc intellect.
    Last edited by MrExcelion; 2012-11-26 at 12:00 PM.

  11. #11
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    @namliam: you need more haste. At IV breakpoint (25% raid buff), Frost Bomb have a 8s cooldown and 1.2s cast time. Witch give between 6 and 6.51 bomb per minute.
    Lv have a good refresh windows because of the 3s (from 2.5s to 4s) windows between ticks but NT have the problem than Frost Bomb. And don't forget that both NT et LV have a GCD (1.5s and 1s).
    But why did you talk about Fireball in a Frost spec discussion ?

    @MrExcelion: This trinket will be very good especially for Frost only because it can be macroed with Frozen orb. The on-use intellect (1.9% crit) and 2.7% haste is very great.
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  12. #12
    Mechagnome jtmzac's Avatar
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    I agree there could be more simming done with alternative talents and it would help if I had ran them as a non human since loshan, terror incarnate changes the reforging because of the human racial expertise bonus.

    I'm still trying to work out wether to use my 476 LotC or my 483 EoT with my RoY. Helter skelter is more movement than most fights and patchwerk is less which makes it hard to work out what's really going to be better.

    Quote Originally Posted by namliam View Post
    The CD is reduced by haste, but the CD isnt activated untill you finish the cast..... Cast time is 1.4 seconds, cooldown 9.3. This alone makes getting it on the target more often than 10.7 seconds impossible.
    It looks like you're using the cooldown and cast time with either very little or no haste which could affect it if the bombs don't all scale together (no idea if they do or don't). With 17.48% haste I get a 1.28 second cast and a 8.51 second cooldown. I'm guessing better geared people would have upwards of 20-21% haste.

  13. #13
    Fire spec so crit > Haste, hence my low haste I guess
    Since LB's big damage (50%) comes from the explosion, I seriously doubt that more and more haste will affect dps of LB a great deal

    While at your haste levels every 9.9 seconds is the limit and even more haste reduces that.
    Then the 12 second/5 times per minute refresh becomes a lot more credable.

    Guess I should stay in fire discussions and out of frost/arcane :P

  14. #14
    Mechagnome jtmzac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by namliam View Post
    Guess I should stay in fire discussions and out of frost/arcane :P
    That might help lol. I try to avoid any fire discussions since I don't play it.

    I've decided to just use frost bomb and EoT on stationary fights and use nether tempest and LotC when there's a bit of movement which seems to work well. Doesn't help stop fire mages having better dps than frost though :/

  15. #15
    Patchwerk fights don't exist.

  16. #16
    Non-Fire mages should avoid Frost Bomb. The trinket from Elegon is part of your Best in Slot gear list and as you do not have Ignite or Pyroblast, Mage Bomb is the only thing that can trigger its effect.

  17. #17
    Mechagnome jtmzac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    Non-Fire mages should avoid Frost Bomb. The trinket from Elegon is part of your Best in Slot gear list and as you do not have Ignite or Pyroblast, Mage Bomb is the only thing that can trigger its effect.
    I was under the assumption that RoY + EoT was considered BiS for frost. Am I wrong?

  18. #18
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    Just an important information:
    The 5.1 on-Use trinket won't be upgradable (until further change).
    So there's a lot of chance that it will be only useful for those who have no luck at loot (like me).
    The answers is 42
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by jtmzac View Post
    I was under the assumption that RoY + EoT was considered BiS for frost. Am I wrong?
    Ah, I worded that poorly.
    I meant that it is simmed on the spreadsheet with Frost Bomb despite the fact that Frost Mages using Frost Bomb can't trigger it, meaning that it should presumably have a much lower DPS contribution than listed as you are relying solely on the passive stats.
    It is still however much easier to obtain than the actual best in slot trinket so you're probably going to be using it for a while.

  20. #20
    You realize that SimC can tell when a trinket can't be proc'd right? Those LotC FB numbers are without the proc which is why they are low.

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