1. #1

    [Fire] Ignite Changes and Mastery

    I am very curious how much better mastery is going to be for mages now, I would assume that anything we can do to increase our ignite would be beneficial, has simcraft been updated with this new information? Anyone tested it out yet?

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Krangh View Post
    I am very curious how much better mastery is going to be for mages now, I would assume that anything we can do to increase our ignite would be beneficial, has simcraft been updated with this new information? Anyone tested it out yet?
    i fail to see how this change would effect the scaling of mastery its still the same

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by vamonos View Post
    i fail to see how this change would effect the scaling of mastery its still the same
    Well, they stated in patch notes that the formula for combustion has been changed to increase the effect of Ignite, and no longer consider Pyroblast... Soo.. As Mastery effects Ignite, and ignite is now a larger contributor to combustion.. then it stands to reason that the stat weights might have a small change.... ?

  4. #4
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kewi View Post
    Well, they stated in patch notes that the formula for combustion has been changed to increase the effect of Ignite, and no longer consider Pyroblast... Soo.. As Mastery effects Ignite, and ignite is now a larger contributor to combustion.. then it stands to reason that the stat weights might have a small change.... ?
    Building Ignites pre-patch wasn't difficult and it will remain the same post-patch. It's relatively easy to build ~80K Ignites (RNG allowing) at ~470 iLvl, this translates to a 80K ticking combust.

    As far as I can tell stat weights won't change; crit is still the biggest factor in building an Ignite, and Haste will pull ahead of Mastery just because of potential extra ticks. It may no longer be an irrelevant secondary stat, but it's probably still our weakest. IF anything, the only time you'd reforge to Mastery is just after you've reached a Haste breakpoint and have excess Haste that can't be reforged into crit.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    As far as I can tell stat weights won't change; crit is still the biggest factor in building an Ignite, and Haste will pull ahead of Mastery just because of potential extra ticks. It may no longer be an irrelevant secondary stat, but it's probably still our weakest. IF anything, the only time you'd reforge to Mastery is just after you've reached a Haste breakpoint and have excess Haste that can't be reforged into crit.
    In 5.0 - you needed two crits didn't you to maximise combustion ?
    In 5.1 - you only need one crit ?

    That has to change something about the crit requirement doesn't it ?

    PS: New to being fire mage, so be gentle with your corrections

  6. #6
    Moderator Shangalar's Avatar
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    Well the max crit potential was and still remains at 4 consecutive Crits (while having other intellect procs, pots and blabla of course).

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by schwarzkopf View Post
    In 5.0 - you needed two crits didn't you to maximise combustion ?
    In 5.1 - you only need one crit ?
    What? Why?

    Ignite mechanics haven't changed. Crit mechanics haven't changed. You still build your Ignites in the same way. Your goal is still to get your Ignite as high as possible by chaining as many crits as possible.

    Previously Combustion was maybe 70-80% Ignite and 20-30% Pyro dot, and now it's 100% Ignite, so there is definitely a case for Mastery being stronger than it was, but it's highly unlikely that this makes it stronger than Haste or Crit.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyQuest View Post
    What? Why?

    Ignite mechanics haven't changed. Crit mechanics haven't changed. You still build your Ignites in the same way. Your goal is still to get your Ignite as high as possible by chaining as many crits as possible.

    Previously Combustion was maybe 70-80% Ignite and 20-30% Pyro dot, and now it's 100% Ignite, so there is definitely a case for Mastery being stronger than it was, but it's highly unlikely that this makes it stronger than Haste or Crit.
    I thought Combustion used to be 33% of Ignite + 50% of Pyro dot. If that is true, mastery weight should have gone up a lot (although I still believe it is the least important stat). Glad to hear other points of view though

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by lockdnloaded View Post
    I thought Combustion used to be 33% of Ignite + 50% of Pyro dot. If that is true, mastery weight should have gone up a lot (although I still believe it is the least important stat). Glad to hear other points of view though
    I think we're talking about different numbers.

    Combustion used to take the DPS of Ignite and the DPS of Pyro dot and roll that into a new dot called Combustion.

    Just pulling some numbers out of my ass, but it's not hard to get an Ignite on a target ticking for say 80k and a Pyroblast ticking for 30k.

    Ignite ticks every 2 seconds, so to get the DPS you divide by 2 - this is where your 50% of an Ignite tick comes in.
    Pyro dot ticks every 3 seconds, so to get the DPS you divide by 3 (Pyro dot Combustion calculation is more complex than that but it's irrelevant here) - this is where your 33% of a Pyro dot comes in.

    In my made up example that'd mean Ignite DPS of 40k and Pyro DPS of 10k being rolled into a Combustion of 50k, meaning 80% of Combustion's 50k came from Ignite and 20% of it from Pyro.
    Last edited by JohnnyQuest; 2012-11-28 at 01:37 PM. Reason: Spelling

  10. #10
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyQuest View Post
    I think we're talking about different numbers.

    Combustion used to take the DPS of Ignite and the DPS of Pyro dot and roll that into a new dot called Combustion.

    Just pulling some numbers out of my ass, but it's not hard to get an Ignite on a target ticking for say 80k and a Pyroblast ticking for 30k.

    Ignite ticks every 2 seconds, so to get the DPS you divide by 2 - this is where your 50% of an Ignite tick comes in.
    Pyro dot ticks every 3 seconds, so to get the DPS you divide by 3 (Pyro dot Combustion calculation is more complex than that but it's irrelevant here) - this is where your 33% of a Pyro dot comes in.

    In my made up example that'd mean Ignite DPS of 40k and Pyro DPS of 10k being rolled into a Combustion of 50k, meaning 80% of Combustion's 50k came from Ignite and 20% of it from Pyro.
    This is how Combustion was calculated pre-patch.

    Regarding the 1 crit/2 crit response:
    Pre-patch using PoM/Alter Time you could at BEST have 4 Pyro crits comprising your Combustion - often led to 40-50K Combustions with ease.
    Post-patch this hasn't changed, but the DAMAGE will change, and go up.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyQuest View Post
    What? Why?

    Ignite mechanics haven't changed. Crit mechanics haven't changed. You still build your Ignites in the same way. Your goal is still to get your Ignite as high as possible by chaining as many crits as possible.

    Previously Combustion was maybe 70-80% Ignite and 20-30% Pyro dot, and now it's 100% Ignite, so there is definitely a case for Mastery being stronger than it was, but it's highly unlikely that this makes it stronger than Haste or Crit.
    It was already pretty close to haste, post plateau. I think it was haste - 1.36 mastery - 1.34 or something along the lines. That would mean that after the patch, mastery surpassed haste.

  12. #12
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    Usually simcraft is ontop of these changes, even during PTR... but stat weighs seem to be the same..
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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyQuest View Post
    What? Why?

    Ignite mechanics haven't changed. Crit mechanics haven't changed. You still build your Ignites in the same way. Your goal is still to get your Ignite as high as possible by chaining as many crits as possible.

    Previously Combustion was maybe 70-80% Ignite and 20-30% Pyro dot, and now it's 100% Ignite, so there is definitely a case for Mastery being stronger than it was, but it's highly unlikely that this makes it stronger than Haste or Crit.
    Previously you needed to get crits on both your pyro dot and your ignite to maximise - you no longer need to worry about the pyro crit chance to affect your combustion.

    That is - used to be 2 crits, now 1.

  14. #14
    Previously you needed to get crits on both your pyro dot and your ignite to maximise
    Pyro dot crits had basically nothing to do with Combustion.

    My back-of-the-envelope math suggests Mastery is 30% stronger than before, placing it in between haste and crit. It's possible I missed something though.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Tickspoon View Post
    Pyro dot crits had basically nothing to do with Combustion.
    I had thought that a part of Combustion was Pyro dots (crit or otherwise) and a part was Ignite .... not requiring a Pyro crit to get the same level of combustion in 5.1 should reduce the dependence on crit for Combustion shouldn't it ?

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