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  1. #1

    Why do warriors always seem to be OP each xpac?

    I don't want to cry conspiracy, but there are really annoying mechanics every xpac that seem to go overlooked despite the overwhelming grief it causes players on the receiving end.

    In BC it was mace spec + stun herald... say what you want but we had 2 classes at the time that could even use that... and ret was a joke back then... so really one.

    In WotLK and Cata it was the IWIN macro recklessness+trinket+bladestorm

    In MoP its IWIN macro and replace bladestorm with dragon roar.

    Now I'm a firm believer that the issue truly lies with recklessness and not dragon roar itself, but the fact that anyone can do that kind of damage with 1 click... is ridiculous.

    I guess if every class had a way of dropping a player 50%+ hp with an insta click, it would be balanced.

    I don't play a hunter (so relax) but I find it comical that they will reduce their overall dps, (which the burst was excessive) but it came from multiple sources, whereas warriors are doing pretty similar burst dps and its coming from ONE source.

  2. #2
    The Patient Divinism's Avatar
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    The issue here is not Dragon Roar (which innately always crits, so Recklessness brings no benefit to it), most good warriors don't even use it.

    The problem here is the ridiculous amounts of damage warriors can deal with CD stacking while also possessing good set of control tools (shockwave, charge stun, gag order, fear, all on relatively short cooldown) and good mobility (heroic leap, charge, avatar, banner + safeguard). Don't forget Taste for Blood, "rare" opportunity to kill player from almost full health, while 5 stacks are indeed hard to pull off, even 3 can be dangerous. The existance of this mechanic is questionable at least.

    To answer your question, it's especially in the first patch of the expansion where warriors are overtuned. In 4.0, warriors had too much mobility (Intercept + Charge + Heroic Leap) combined to their damage + cooldown stacking (back when Colossus Smash provided full 100% armor penetration).

    But later on they get changes and become easier for people to deal with, like Bladestorm becoming disarmable, Colossus Smash now ignoring 50% armor or Charge sharing cooldown with Intercept, they even prevented cooldown stacking (Deadly Calm + Recklessness). In the end, seasons 10 (Cata) and 7/8 (WoTLK) were quite balanced, right?

    I think the same will eventually happen soon.
    Last edited by Divinism; 2012-11-25 at 03:53 PM.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Divinitum View Post
    The issue here is not Dragon Roar (which innately always crits, so Recklessness brings no benefit to it), most good warriors don't even use it.

    The problem here is the ridiculous amounts of damage warriors can deal with CD stacking while also possessing good set of control tools (shockwave, charge stun, gag order, fear, all on relatively short cooldown) and good mobility (heroic leap, charge, avatar, banner + safeguard).
    Well, charge stunn nerfed, gagorder (removed) fear CD is increased by 15 sec(for no good reason) people are whining about TFB, its so rare you get 5 stacks, like maybe 1 in 40 arenas, and if you dont CC the warrior with the stacks up, you deserve to loose. That makes warrior the class with least controll in the game, and with the avatar nerf, it is basically useless....

  4. #4
    Pandaren Monk Mnevis's Avatar
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    Because they're Warriors. Original Hero Class.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Divinitum View Post
    The issue here is not Dragon Roar (which innately always crits, so Recklessness brings no benefit to it), most good warriors don't even use it.

    The problem here is the ridiculous amounts of damage warriors can deal with CD stacking while also possessing good set of control tools (shockwave, charge stun, gag order, fear, all on relatively short cooldown) and good mobility (heroic leap, charge, avatar, banner + safeguard). Don't forget Taste for Blood, "rare" opportunity to kill player from almost full health, while 5 stacks are indeed hard to pull off, even 3 can be dangerous. The existance of this mechanic is questionable at least.

    To answer your question, it's especially in the first patch of the expansion where warriors are overtuned. In 4.0, warriors had too much mobility (Intercept + Charge + Heroic Leap) combined to their damage + cooldown stacking (back when Colossus Smash provided full 100% armor penetration).

    But later on they get changes and become easier for people to deal with, like Bladestorm becoming disarmable, Colossus Smash now ignoring 50% armor or Charge sharing cooldown with Intercept, they even prevented cooldown stacking (Deadly Calm + Recklessness). In the end, seasons 10 (Cata) and 7/8 (WoTLK) were quite balanced, right?

    I think the same will eventually happen soon.
    Ya by the END of the xpac... in the meantime they top arenas and rbgs.

    Youre saying this is acceptable? That we should have to wait ALL xpac for them to be tweaked correctly? Interesting that its the warrior that ALWAYS seems to fall thru the cracks (in a good way [for them]) and is the one that needs constant tweaking the whole xpac.

    Even then I would have to say that if every class starts out at 100% tuned, the warrior starts out at 150% tuned, and by the end of the xpac its 110% tuned. Lets not forget that warriors scale the best with gear... so by the time you do get around to nerfing them, they already have top tier gear and are roflstomping everyone anyway.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-25 at 08:04 AM ----------

    I wouldn't be so bitter about it if for once... the OP class was someone else.

    AND

    the OPness went ignored like it does for warriors.

    Because if any other class is in fact OP the hotfixes are swift and precise. But when it comes to the warrior they are small, long drawn out, rarely focused, and don't even address the areas that truly make them OP.

  6. #6
    Fluffy Kitten Aurora's Avatar
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    In PVP by design warriors are the highest damaging spec if you just stand there and let them do their thing. Also by design they've the worst arsenal of ranged maneuvers and are the most easily rendered ineffectual by kiting. If you play aggressively against a warrior (which most people do for whatever reason) you'll lose, if you play defensively and evasively you'll have an advantage.
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/aggramar/%C3%83urora/simple

  7. #7
    Because they're not a very fun class to play, so the OP status is a perk.

    :P

    /got mine to mid 40's and concluded that I really did hate it.
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  8. #8
    The Lightbringer Ermahgerd's Avatar
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    Warriors are the DKs of wotlk release. But every start of expansion... The problem is that they blow all of their cooldowns at once, which should be fixed IMO. CD stacking is just stupid and ridiculous and it's not even FUN.

  9. #9
    The Patient Divinism's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Brown Eye View Post
    Ya by the END of the xpac... in the meantime they top arenas and rbgs.

    Youre saying this is acceptable? That we should have to wait ALL xpac for them to be tweaked correctly? Interesting that its the warrior that ALWAYS seems to fall thru the cracks (in a good way [for them]) and is the one that needs constant tweaking the whole xpac.

    Even then I would have to say that if every class starts out at 100% tuned, the warrior starts out at 150% tuned, and by the end of the xpac its 110% tuned. Lets not forget that warriors scale the best with gear... so by the time you do get around to nerfing them, they already have top tier gear and are roflstomping everyone anyway.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-25 at 08:04 AM ----------

    I wouldn't be so bitter about it if for once... the OP class was someone else.

    AND

    the OPness went ignored like it does for warriors.

    Because if any other class is in fact OP the hotfixes are swift and precise. But when it comes to the warrior they are small, long drawn out, rarely focused, and don't even address the areas that truly make them OP.
    I'm not saying it's OK. Just that the first patch of the expansion seems to be the most unbalanced, because of developer mistakes / lack of proper feedback or both. Although, I think the current state of warriors is because they listened to the warrior community too much. Warrior in season 11 (yes, at the end of the expansion) was one of the least represented classes in arena because how underperforming they were. This lasted for the whole 4.3 (a year). Do you remember rogues and mages during that time? Were they hotfixed?

    The result of wanting to bring warriors on par with other classes combined with development of a new expansion is visible.

    Quote Originally Posted by alom View Post
    That makes warrior the class with least controll in the game, and with the avatar nerf, it is basically useless....
    The current amount of CC is why the fun in this game's PvP is diminishing. There's too much of it, even if Blizzard says they're satisfied with it. Especially when most of them are, or can be made instant. Not all classes should have a CC arsenal of a rogue. I remember hearing that the amount of CC has tripled since TBC, while the cooldown of PvP trinket has stayed the same. Take a look at warlock or priest for example, who can keep you feared for 14 seconds, or holy paladins who can form a CC chain for 16 seconds.
    Last edited by Divinism; 2012-11-25 at 04:25 PM.

  10. #10
    Legendary! TJ's Avatar
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    Did you really mention Dragon's Roar?... Shockwave is the better option by miles and is much more OP.

    Warriors have been OP for the start of Cata and MoP but look where we finished in Cata and the way things are going it's likely to be the same for MoP. Wouldn't bother complaining since we're already getting nerfed anyway and they fixed nothing whilst leaving the original problem still there (the burst) so more nerfs are likely on the way. Cata 2.0.

  11. #11
    Stood in the Fire Conjor's Avatar
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    There are always "those classes" who are considered insanely strong each expansion. For the past few its been locks, mages, shamans, (not so much) warriors, and to an extent, rogues.

    IMHO, what makes a class OP is not one unique quality, like burst damage, or cc, or what have you, but that classes ability to do all of those things well in nearly all situations.

    There is a reason mages and locks have been the staple of high-end arena play for the past 4 seasons: they have strong burst damage, chain-castable cc (both single target and AoE), and great survivability tools. Not to mention that most, if not, all of those abilities require a low skill-cap to use effectively. You won't be able to convince anyone that chain casting fear or poly on multiple targets requires high-skill. Not to say each class does not preform well in any situation, but classes like mages and locks can do it all.

    The reason warriors are seeming OP this time around is because they were given more tools which allow them to fill out there "a tool for all jobs" toolkit. End of story. I was actually very surprised that Druids didn't explode the arena scene with Heart of the Wild and Symbiosis.

    The only real solution to fixing warriors, and for that matter, all classes when it comes to PvP, is to reduce the number of abilities we have now. Nerfing the damage of abilities is not going to fix the problem because it isn't the root of the problem. Every expansion adds another 2-3 abilities for each class. Hell, by my count Hunters got 5 more buttons this expansion. I don't know how Blizzard expects themselves to keep everything balanced when they keep adding more variables to an already unstable equation.

    The harsh reality is Blizzard has built this game around PvE, not PvP. That much should be clear simply based on how content is developed and released. They may try and convince the population that this isn't true, but come on. Every few monthes we get new raids, new dungeons, ect. How often do we get new PvP content? Can one reasonably say that PvE and PvP are developed with the same vigor? Can PvP even be developed? How much can you really change when it comes to PvP content besides adding new platforms for that PvP to take place (bgs / arenas).

    With that in mind, is it even reasonable to assume that PvP will ever be balanced? I don't think so. Every expansion, every teir for that matter, is built around PvE content and PvP is simply a side-effect. When it comes to balance, I'm sure Blizzard tries their best, but balance between all classes in PvP situations is a pipe dream. Hell, Blizzard even has issues balancing PvE.

  12. #12
    Scarab Lord Gandrake's Avatar
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    Why do Warlocks always have to be OP?
    A storm is on the horizon, and I’m standing here alone
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  13. #13
    Because your perception is extremely twisted if you think cata (half of s9, s10 and s11) warriors were OP, while the state of the class was pitiful (hint: no crying posts in a year and a half). For you, they will always be.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Conjor View Post
    There are always "those classes" who are considered insanely strong each expansion. For the past few its been locks, mages, shamans, (not so much) warriors, and to an extent, rogues.

    IMHO, what makes a class OP is not one unique quality, like burst damage, or cc, or what have you, but that classes ability to do all of those things well in nearly all situations.

    There is a reason mages and locks have been the staple of high-end arena play for the past 4 seasons: they have strong burst damage, chain-castable cc (both single target and AoE), and great survivability tools. Not to mention that most, if not, all of those abilities require a low skill-cap to use effectively. You won't be able to convince anyone that chain casting fear or poly on multiple targets requires high-skill. Not to say each class does not preform well in any situation, but classes like mages and locks can do it all.

    The reason warriors are seeming OP this time around is because they were given more tools which allow them to fill out there "a tool for all jobs" toolkit. End of story. I was actually very surprised that Druids didn't explode the arena scene with Heart of the Wild and Symbiosis.

    The only real solution to fixing warriors, and for that matter, all classes when it comes to PvP, is to reduce the number of abilities we have now. Nerfing the damage of abilities is not going to fix the problem because it isn't the root of the problem. Every expansion adds another 2-3 abilities for each class. Hell, by my count Hunters got 5 more buttons this expansion. I don't know how Blizzard expects themselves to keep everything balanced when they keep adding more variables to an already unstable equation.

    The harsh reality is Blizzard has built this game around PvE, not PvP. That much should be clear simply based on how content is developed and released. They may try and convince the population that this isn't true, but come on. Every few monthes we get new raids, new dungeons, ect. How often do we get new PvP content? Can one reasonably say that PvE and PvP are developed with the same vigor? Can PvP even be developed? How much can you really change when it comes to PvP content besides adding new platforms for that PvP to take place (bgs / arenas).

    With that in mind, is it even reasonable to assume that PvP will ever be balanced? I don't think so. Every expansion, every teir for that matter, is built around PvE content and PvP is simply a side-effect. When it comes to balance, I'm sure Blizzard tries their best, but balance between all classes in PvP situations is a pipe dream. Hell, Blizzard even has issues balancing PvE.
    I like how you talk about op classes and then put half of the available list into said category
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  15. #15
    Legendary! Destil's Avatar
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    Didn't Warriors get the D last xpack? I remember my former GM saying they weren't as good for parts of Cata as they could be (he still pulled amazing numbers but said they could be better).

    Regardless, there's always a class or two that shine for Xpack. I dunno what Vanilla or BC was but DKs, Mages, and Rogues were amazing in Wrath, in Cata Hunters and S Priests were pretty amazing, along with of course Mages. Right now with Mists I'd say Warriors, Mages, and Warlocks are just fucking insane.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Brown Eye View Post
    In BC it was mace spec + stun herald... say what you want but we had 2 classes at the time that could even use that... and ret was a joke back then... so really one.

    In WotLK and Cata it was the IWIN macro recklessness+trinket+bladestorm
    Enhancement Shamans used Stormherald too, just sayin'. Also, since you threw in "mace spec", don't leave out rogues.

    I can't speak for MoP since I haven't even seen it, but Warriors were (like always) a roller coaster in Wrath, especially when the initial juggernaut nerf came along, then back at the top with 100% ArP. At the start of cata, fury's mastery scaled so well in PvP, nearly everyone was fury for 2 weeks until the mastery got nerfed. After that, Warriors were complete garbage in arena, we were all forced into RBG's as an FC only.

    How did warriors do at the BWC?

  17. #17
    Clueless OP..

    WotLK says hi. the class was so !@#$ed up with GCDs and stupid stance / rage requirements.
    Last edited by Gamez; 2012-11-25 at 04:42 PM.

  18. #18
    Dreadlord Tucci's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Brown Eye View Post
    Ya by the END of the xpac... in the meantime they top arenas and rbgs.

    Youre saying this is acceptable? That we should have to wait ALL xpac for them to be tweaked correctly? Interesting that its the warrior that ALWAYS seems to fall thru the cracks (in a good way [for them]) and is the one that needs constant tweaking the whole xpac.

    Even then I would have to say that if every class starts out at 100% tuned, the warrior starts out at 150% tuned, and by the end of the xpac its 110% tuned. Lets not forget that warriors scale the best with gear... so by the time you do get around to nerfing them, they already have top tier gear and are roflstomping everyone anyway.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-25 at 08:04 AM ----------

    I wouldn't be so bitter about it if for once... the OP class was someone else.

    AND

    the OPness went ignored like it does for warriors.

    Because if any other class is in fact OP the hotfixes are swift and precise. But when it comes to the warrior they are small, long drawn out, rarely focused, and don't even address the areas that truly make them OP.
    You CANNOT be serious?? Warriors have been the worst pvp class since the dawn of time EXCEPT for when big changes happen to them. They were LITERALLY the most useless class in the game for 90% of Cata because they overnerfed us at the beginning and let us be crap til MoP. We're FINALLY good again and it's nothing but QQ everywhere I look. It sickens me that the community is quiet as a church mouse when the class is utter garbage but when we're good it's like the end of the world. We were literally dying in cheap shots and deep freezes, putting down BC dmg on holy paladins and getting 2 shot by Blood dk's at the end of Cata. No mobility, no grip, no dmg, no cc and no defensive cd's, took 20% more damage during Reck which was a 5 min cd, reflect was ultra nerfed to a 25 sec cd, the list goes on. Now we're good but getting huge nerfs in 5.1 and people are still crying. The only times we've been good was in BC, WOTLK before they took unrelenting assault away, early Cata and now.

    And like other people have already said, no one uses dragon roar, it's all about shockwave and the overpowered part comes in when the warrior isn't controlled, stacks taste for blood up high enough, stacks CD's and lays out huge damage.

  19. #19
    Alone the mentioning of dragonroar tells me that this is once again one of those ~1500 rating threads nobody should care too deeply about. One shot potential is getting removed via limiting the stacks of tfb. So is the freedom portion of avatar and the silence on pummel. If people are still having too many problems switching to a title with even less mechanical requirements might be worthy to consider.
    Last edited by cFortyfive; 2012-11-25 at 04:49 PM.

  20. #20
    Why should PvP dictate the damage output of any given class ?

    Also, on a strictly PvE point of view, warriors were undertoned for a very long time because of PvPers' whinings. This has been so for too long. PvP changes and nerfs should only be applied to PvP realms imo.

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