View Poll Results: What do you think is most likely?

Voters
66. You may not vote on this poll
  • Number One

    16 24.24%
  • Number Two

    39 59.09%
  • Number Three

    5 7.58%
  • Other (please post ideas)

    6 9.09%
Page 1 of 5
1
2
3
... LastLast
  1. #1

    What would've happened if the orcs had won the Second War?

    Say Doomhammer had killed Gul'dan and Cho'gall after they created the first death knights. They wouldn't have taken troops away from the siege of Lordaeron and Orgrim wouldn't have diverted his forces which would allow him to crush Lordaeron effectively winning the Second War. I think one of three things would happen afterwards:

    Number One: They would have methodically gone from kingdom to kingdom (Stromgarde, Gilneas, Ironforge, Quel'Thalas, etc.) and destroyed all opposition. After conquering all of the Eastern Kingdoms they would have taken all of the viable resources from Draenor and had all the clans that remained their (Bonechewer, Shadowmoon, Mag'har, etc.) move to Azeroth. Thrall would be raised by his family since Gul'dan never had assassins to kill Draka and Durotan. Mannoroth would come to Azeroth to assert his dominance over the orcs, but Grom Hellscream would slay him and die (like in the original timeline) and Garrosh would take his position since he learned orcish traditions being raised in a proper orc society. After the release of the Blood Curse, Warchief Doomhammer realizing the harmful effects of demon magic, slaughters the remaining death knights and bans fel magic. Thrall, trained by Drek'thar, would show much promise and is taken in as apprentice to the former Warchief, Ner'zhul. With Ner'zhul's guidance Thrall would be able to reestablish his people's connection to the elements and the ancestors. With Ner'zhul's death Thrall would become the advisor to the aging Warchief Doomhammer. After his eventual death Thrall is given the title and becomes the new Warchief bringing a new age of prosperity to his people.

    Number Two: They conquer all the kingdoms. Mannoroth returns and is able to make the orcs submit. He sends the orcs across the ocean to slaughter the night elves. After they destroy most of the night elf population and burn down Ashenvale/Darkshore the legion twists them completely into fel orcs and adopts them into their army to continue their conquest of the worlds.

    Number Three: They capture Lordaeron, but are defeated after all the remaining kingdoms unite for one final stand at Stromgarde. Without the voice of Terenas to persuade them to force the orcs into internment camps, all the orcs are executed. The united kingdoms march into the Dark Portal and finish off the remaining clans who are taken by surprise. They then take any resources Draenor has to offer and close the portal behind them when they are finished.

    Thoughts? Please post anything you also think would have happened.
    Last edited by Admiral Daelin Proudmoore; 2012-11-23 at 02:57 AM.

  2. #2
    Brewmaster
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    1,315
    Number 2 is the most likely. The legion was using the orcs and the demon blood fueled agression to try and bring the legion and sageras to azeroth. The orcs failure resulted in the plague and lich king fiasco to try and complete the job which culminated in archimonde at the world tree in hyjal.

    *edit* number 3 seems a bit contradictory to your title as it is not really the orcs winning the 2nd war in that scenario.
    Last edited by Splatter; 2012-11-23 at 02:54 AM.

  3. #3
    The Lightbringer Mandible's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Denmark
    Posts
    3,376
    Nerzhul was dead long before the second war just to mention one thing.
    "Only Jack can zip up."
    The word you want to use is "have" not "of".
    You may have alot of stuff in your country, but we got Lolland.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Mandible View Post
    Nerzhul was dead long before the second war just to mention one thing.
    Ner'zhul died after the Second War. He remained on Draenor after he learned of Kil'jaeden's deceit. He ordered orcs to steal Azerothian artifacts to open portals to new worlds. In one of the worlds he was captured by Kil'jaeden and was tormented until Kil'jaeden trapped his spirit in a block of ice at the top of the world.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-23 at 03:03 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Splatter View Post
    Number 2 is the most likely. The legion was using the orcs and the demon blood fueled agression to try and bring the legion and sageras to azeroth. The orcs failure resulted in the plague and lich king fiasco to try and complete the job which culminated in archimonde at the world tree in hyjal.

    *edit* number 3 seems a bit contradictory to your title as it is not really the orcs winning the 2nd war in that scenario.
    Well, sacking Stormwind won them the First War even though they didn't conquer humanity.

  5. #5
    Herald of the Titans Matt0193's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Chair
    Posts
    2,520
    Quote Originally Posted by Admiral Daelin Proudmoore View Post
    Number One: I say they would have methodically gone from kingdom to kingdom (Stromgarde, Gilneas, Ironforge, Quel'Thalas, etc.) and destroyed all opposition. After conquering all of the Eastern Kingdoms I believe they would have taken all of the viable resources from Draenor and had all the clans that remained their (Bonechewer, Shadowmoon, Mag'har, etc.) move to Azeroth. Thrall would be raised by his family since Gul'dan never had assassins to kill Draka and Durotan. Mannoroth would come to Azeroth to assert his dominance over the orcs, but Grom Hellscream would slay him and die (like in the original timeline) and Garrosh would take his position since he learned orcish traditions being raised in a proper orc society. After the release of the Blood Curse, Warchief Doomhammer realizing the harmful effects of demon magic, slaughters the remaining death knights and bans fel magic. Thrall, trained by Drek'thar, would show much promise and is taken in as apprentice to the former Warchief, Ner'zhul. With Ner'zhul's guidance Thrall would able to reestablish his people's connection to the elements and the ancestors. With Ner'zhul's death Thrall would become the advisor to the aging Warchief Doomhammer. After his eventual death Thrall is given the title and becomes the new Warchief bringing a new age of prosperity to his people.
    I think it's a given that any kingdom below Lordereon was pretty much fucked over by that point, maybe with the exception of Gilneas because it was somewhat out of the way. I'm curious, it's never mentioned as to what happened regarding the Dwarves in the second War; did the Orcs just waltz through Khaz Modan without bothering to destroy the Dwarves? I know they likely sailed after the Humans who fled in the boats but surely they'd have pushed through the land, otherwise they would've been destroyed in Arathi through a pincer attack from Khaz Modan and a galvanised Human force from Lordereon.

    However, I think that Grom killing off Mannoroth wouldn't happen. The chances are Mannoroth would land with Archimonde, as both tended to lead the main armies of the Burning Legion, and proceeded to subjagate the Orcs into outcome 2 of yours. Mannoroth was only alone in Ashenvale later on because he was trying to prove a point; that the Orcs were still HIS weapon and that their attack WOULD succeed. The Scourge were only created because of this failure, so in the regular Legion fashion, he falls to his own ego and tries to tempt them into Bloodlust in order to spark the war between Orcs and the other natives of Azeroth. So if the Orcs were successful as Lordereon and proceeded to take the Eastern Kingdoms, I think the Legion would've subjigated them then; severing all ties to Shamanism and their Ancestry.

    I don't however think that the Orcs would succeed against the Night Elves, even with the Demon armies. At least not without both Archimonde and Mannoroth both partaking in the assault. As Mannoroth was dead by the events of the Third War, his pressence could've changed the outcome. The fact that 3 Races had to band together to defeat Archimonde, who was in control of the Undead (The successors of the Orcs in regards to being the Legion's weapon) and the demons implies that the Night Elves alone would not be able to stand against the Legion; but this is a legion without the Undead. While Orcs are powerful and would likely make excellent shocktroopers for the Legion's forces, they would eventually die. The Undead were basically an unlimited source of free kills for the Legion in that assault.

    Quote Originally Posted by Admiral Daelin Proudmoore View Post
    Number Two: They conquer all the kingdoms. Mannoroth returns and is able to make the orcs submit. He sends the orcs across the ocean to slaughter the night elves. After they destroy most of the night elf population and burn down Ashenvale/Darkshore the legion twists them completely into fel orcs and adopts them into their army to continue their conquest of the worlds.
    Covered above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Admiral Daelin Proudmoore View Post
    Number Three: They capture Lordaeron, but are defeated after all the remaining kingdoms unite for one final stand at Stromgarde. Without the voice of Terenas to dissuade them from forcing the orcs into internment camps, all the orcs are executed. The united kingdoms march into the Dark Portal and finish off the remaining clans who are taken by surprise. They then take any resources Draenor has to offer and close the portal behind them when they are finished.
    Terenas wasn't the one who had the idea to save the Orcs; ironically it was a young King Varian Wrynn of Azeroth (Stormwind was the later name for the Southern Human Capital) who suggested that with the right supervision the Orcs may have the Bloodlust removed from them. I think it was Genn Greymane and Daelin Proudmoore who voted against this with Anasterian Sunstrider and Antonidas voting with Varian. If Terenas had voted against it, he was swayed by the youngest member of the Grand Alliance having such a level of insight and compassion, then the Orcs would likely have been executed as he, as the "Head" of the Alliance would've had the casting vote. To the point however, I do think that if Lordereon had fallen and that Stromgarde (As the Ancestral Human Capital) had withstood it's siege then I do think that even Anasterian or Antonidas may have been swayed by the potential destructive force of the Orcs. Quel'thalas was only a short distrance from Lordereon, as was Dalaran, and so they would likely have voted in protection of their realms.

    As to going to Outland, it's likely that they would end up going there to ensure that there are no remaining Orcs that could attack, but I'm not sure they would close down the portals as the Mage contingent of Dalaran and Quel'thalas would likely wish to study how this was possible and try to use any of the more arcane artifacts found throughout Draenor.

    -Another thing that would be worth mentioning is the Dragonflights. In scenario 1, would the remaining Flights have come to the aid of the Elves again against the legion? Would the Ancients have felt that they were needed once more after seeing the destruction of the Eastern Kingdoms? (Assuming that Ancients are able to go elsewhere other than Night Elven lands).
    -Further regarding the Dragonflights, without the Failure of the second War, Deathwing would never have had Grim Batol to experiment in, which would prove to be the only time that he was ever attacked by the Other Aspects. The Blackrock Orcs would've been crushed by the Dark Iron's without the Black's forces manipulating them, and as the Blackrock Orcs were only holed up inside the Mountain after the Battle for the Burning Steppes, they likely wouldn't have ever ventured into that area until a much later date.
    -The Naaru would never meet the other races, unless the Orcs were defeated and the Alliance explored Outlands to find them. Khadgar would still get to have his epic talks with a wind chime, I guess.
    -As Anasterian would likely still be in Charge, Illidan's calls to the Blood Elves would likely be ignored. When the Scourge eventually appear (As a contingent to the Orc failure) the Humans don't have Arthas training to be a Paladin (As he'll be too busy being King, if not dead outright). No other Paladin would've been allowed to have any such thoughts as they were not royalty so any possible signs of anger or remorselessness would be crushed, meaning no Lordereon ships sail to Northrend, meaning that Illidan would destroy the Lich King (Or become part of it, we'll never know if he'll be drawn to power so much). Illidan getting there would also be a point of contention, as Arthas told Illidan how to defeat the Demons (By become one himself, consuming the Skull of Gul'dan allowed him to defeat Tichondrius, without it he would've been slain). No Arthas being manipulated by Ner'zhul means no info for Illidan.
    -Trolls would die, as no Orcs land to save them.
    -Tauren might die, it would depend if they fled Mulgore. Most more than likely would die.
    -Gnomes would end up taking Gnomeregan back, as the Alliance forces would no longer need to be wary of any possible Orcish attacks (Which was why the Gnomes always declined the aid of the Alliance in retaking their city, I think?).
    -Draenei would eventually crash in Azuremyst, eventually they get along with the Night Elves as they do now.
    -Night Elves and the Draenei may eventually find out about the other Continent, eventually they might setup trade between the various Cities and themselves.

    However, the most important thing is that everyone would die in the Second Silithid War. The Night Elves barely withstood the might of the Qiraji with the Bronze Dragonflight as well as 1 Red, Blue and Green Dragon. Even with the aid of the Bronze flight and the Draenei, I doubt that they would manage to contain the Silithid and eventually Kalimdor would be overun without the Might of Kalimdor action, headed by Varok Saurfang (Orc) and various other leader, such as Leoric von Zeldig (Human), Malagav the Tactician (Tauren) and August Forgehammer (Dwarf). After taking over Kalimdor, C'thun is released and everything goes tits up.

    Not to mention the forces in the Eastern Kingdoms would've been destroyed by the forces of Ragnaros, who would've overun the Black Dragonflight for possession of Blackrock Mountain and Thaurissian in general without the bulk of the Orcs no longer being present. With no reason to go to Kalimdor, they wouldn't have the aid of the Hydraxian Waterlords and assaulting Ragnaros himself would've been impossible as he wouldn't have been summoned.

    And even if they didn't all die to either of these two catastrophes, Yogg-Saron was growing increasingly stronger and would've escaped without setting off the Algalon Failsafe (Loken would be alive, signalling all is well). The substantially weakened Scourge forces (Assuming they even are still created) fall before the strength of the Iron Dwarves.

    The Cataclysm would never have happened, as Deathwing would never have been cornered at Grim Batol and been attacked by the other Aspects, meaning he likely would've schemed to release N'zoth in a more successful fashion.

    Think that about covers it.

    TL;DR. The world would end.

    Voted Other, as I think that 2 and 3 are possible, equally so.
    Last edited by Matt0193; 2012-11-23 at 03:53 AM.
    "Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it." - Ayn Rand

  6. #6
    Night Elves wouldn't have any easy means of closing the portal to keep the orcs from pouring in, but orcs are far weaker than the demon armies they faced in War of the Ancients. Night Elves would prevail, at great cost, as they did in the past.

  7. #7
    Herald of the Titans Matt0193's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Chair
    Posts
    2,520
    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    Night Elves wouldn't have any easy means of closing the portal to keep the orcs from pouring in, but orcs are far weaker than the demon armies they faced in War of the Ancients. Night Elves would prevail, at great cost, as they did in the past.
    Likely, but the Night Elves didn't face Mannoroth alone in the War of the Ancients or Archimonda in the Third. They had an assembly of ancients and dragons aiding them as well as two armies in the Third War. Orcs are also limited in numbers, unlike the Undead who were used in the Third War and the Demons used throughout the War of the Ancients and the Third War. Again, this is assuming that the Ancients do not rise again to defend the Night Elves, and that the Dragons don't get involved again.

    I still think they'd win, but I don't think there'd be enough Night Elves to call them a civilisation ever again.
    "Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it." - Ayn Rand

  8. #8
    I'm curious, it's never mentioned as to what happened regarding the Dwarves in the second War; did the Orcs just waltz through Khaz Modan without bothering to destroy the Dwarves?
    The Orcs took over Blackrock Mountain, which was the Dark Iron's only base. But I don't think the Orcs ever actually got 'through' Khaz Modan; the combined forces of Ironforge and Stromgarde were holding them back very well plus it wasn't really feasible to move their their armies through the mountains. So instead the Orcs got into their ships and entered Lordaeron through Hillsbrad.

    The Orcs did assault Ironforge but never very successfuly.

  9. #9
    I feel the orcs with Legion support could wipe out the night elves. All the orcs would have to do is repurpose the Dark Portal and since they wiped out all the kingdoms in this scenario, they would have all the time in the world to receive Legion reinforcements. The dreadlords raised the dead and Kil'jaeden could very easily twist the orc shamans/warlocks into liches like he did with Ner'zhul's followers. The orcs had subjugated a lot of the red dragonflight so they could burn down massive parts of the forested areas. Also, unlike the two times they fought the Legion, there would be no allies like the furbolg, earthen, tauren, humans, or orcs. They also wouldn't have the support from ancients like Goldrinn, Aviana, Malorne, or the twin bears. Even if they did, all of those guys died in the first Legion assault and would most likely be felled again. Cenarius was killed by a fel-powered Grom. Imagine all the clans with full fel-power.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-23 at 07:06 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Thassarian View Post
    snip
    First Scenario: The dragonflights would not be aiding the elves. Malygos's flight was almost destroyed. Alexstrasza was still captured by the orcs. Neither Ysera nor Nozdormu intervened during the second Legion invasion which leads me to believe they wouldn't aid the elves.

    Regarding the Scourge, we couldn't be sure that they would exist in the first place. They were created strictly because Kil'jaeden wanted to subjugate Ner'zhul but also make him useful.

    Illidan would not be relevant in the third scenario where the orcs don't win against the humans. The Lich King wouldn't exist and Illidan would never be released from prison because without a Lich King, the Legion never returns to Azeroth.

    The draenei left for Azeroth after the blood elves took the majority of Tempest Keep. If the high elves (blood elves) died before/never went to Outland, the Draenei may never have landed on Azeroth.

    But yes, the orcs would have died to C'Thun, Yogg-Saron, and maybe Deathwing.

    The humans still might have the dragonflights to defeat Deathwing since he would never have gotten uber-charged. They might have even been able to take C'Thun if the dragonflights warned them off a threat across the sea and to ally with the night elves. Hell, they probably could have taken Yogg-Saron. Brann would have discovered Ulduar probably and the Alliance would mobilize their forces north. If they could defeat the Old Gods, Ragnaros would be easy.

  10. #10
    What would have happened?

    The Burning Legion would have established the foothold they were after, and, in the process, crushed the orcs as the retarded little pawns there were. The Titans would have then activated a re-Origination device, wiping out the bulk of the Burning Legion armies, and this accursed mess of a rock would have served its purpose once and for all: forcing Sergeras, alone, to face his peers in the Pantheon.

    You just wait.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Thassarian View Post
    Likely, but the Night Elves didn't face Mannoroth alone in the War of the Ancients or Archimonda in the Third. They had an assembly of ancients and dragons aiding them as well as two armies in the Third War. Orcs are also limited in numbers, unlike the Undead who were used in the Third War and the Demons used throughout the War of the Ancients and the Third War. Again, this is assuming that the Ancients do not rise again to defend the Night Elves, and that the Dragons don't get involved again.

    I still think they'd win, but I don't think there'd be enough Night Elves to call them a civilisation ever again.
    The Ancients are and always have been allies of the Night Elves, no matter how much lorespinning cdev wants to bullshit to legitmize the horde being allowed to set foot atop Hyjal. The Ancients were inspiring and a force to be reckoned with but the Night Elves did the bulk of the fighting. I don't see why people have this obsession to denigrate Night Elf lore. The Dragonflights were completely blindsided by Deathwing at a pivotal moment during the War of the Ancients and effectively removed from the fight. it was the Night Elves who won the day... Not the Ancients, not the flights, the Night Elves.
    They are the only race in the entire wow universe that can say they've defeated the Legion *twice*.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Salted Beef View Post
    What would have happened?

    The Burning Legion would have established the foothold they were after, and, in the process, crushed the orcs as the retarded little pawns there were. The Titans would have then activated a re-Origination device, wiping out the bulk of the Burning Legion armies, and this accursed mess of a rock would have served its purpose once and for all: forcing Sergeras, alone, to face his peers in the Pantheon.

    You just wait.
    Um, the orcs would have just become another demon within the army that would continue it's destruction across many worlds. The Re-Origination device only "re-originates" Azeroth, so it would have wiped out a small fraction of the Burning Legion. Not only that, the device is used to cull the old gods, not demons. If demons went around and destroyed everything, it wouldn't set off any alarms. If they unleashed an old god the titans would slam the "obliterate planet" button.

    It kind of makes you wonder what types of races some of these "demons" were, before they got completely integrated in to the Burning Legion.
    Last edited by Demox; 2012-11-23 at 09:20 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    You're up in arms about something you never had and never knew you were going to have until more recent times, now you're pissed off because it turns out you might not get it, even though nobody ever actually said you were getting it anyway?
    Turns out painting a bunch of circles on the floor is all it takes to totally trivialize an encounter designed by Blizzard's dev team. I guess it must be pretty scary when your best work is broken down and utterly defeated by trigonometry.

  13. #13
    Titan apepi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Mostly harmless
    Posts
    12,622
    I don't think Thrall would be the person who is today if he was not as slave. Hell that is how he got his name, I think he would still somewhat the person he is but not a leader. The Horde would be in a kill everyone mentality which Thrall would not like.
    Time...line? Time isn't made out of lines. It is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round. ~ Caboose

  14. #14
    A slightly different version of number 1. Doomhammer would hunt the fel users, yes, but there is no need to kill Mannoroth and such. The Legion needs summoners to call them to Azeroth and with the Horde turning anti-demon, it would be harder for that to happen...

    ... Unless humans turn themselves to warlockism.

  15. #15
    Immortal Granyala's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Arkon-III
    Posts
    7,970
    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    Night Elves wouldn't have any easy means of closing the portal to keep the orcs from pouring in, but orcs are far weaker than the demon armies they faced in War of the Ancients. Night Elves would prevail, at great cost, as they did in the past.
    No they wouldn't. If the portals cannot be closed the legion can just drown them in numbers and whittle them down.

    Azeroth would just be another one of the thousands of defiled and corrupted worlds the legion leaves in it's path.

    Ifalna Sha'yoko on Twitter and Armory - Occasionally unfaithful to WoW with my Adorable Miqo'te - (ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━ ┻

  16. #16
    The dragon flights are sorta like the GMs of Azeroth. Their purpose is to keep watch and deal with major threats, such as the legion, old gods, cataclysms or anything that threatens the world at massive scale. They are not interested in what's going with the civilizations on Azeroth and don't care if one wipes out the other. At least that's how they were supposed to be in the intentions of the Titans.

  17. #17
    Over 9000! Snowraven's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    European Union
    Posts
    9,335
    Number 2 surely. Grom would have no reason to break out of the demonic curse since it did help him win after all. So why would he?
    With the full might of the Horde together, the humans I don't think could have made a stand at all.
    And with full demon controlled orcs from start, neither wold the night elves.
    All the orcs would have been forcedto drink demon blood by the end and they'd have become part of the Legion fully.

  18. #18
    Old God Nindoriel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    10,678
    "What if" scenarios are really hard to predict. Everything could have happened. The Legion could've ruled over Azeroth or the orcs could've tried to free themselves at some point regardless. What about Thrall? Would he still have been born? What kind of person would he have been, when not raised by humans?

  19. #19
    Everyone is focusing too much on the Legion. Kil'jaeden abandoned the Horde after Draenei genocide, they left the orcs. The Shadow Council was hunted down by Doomhammer after his coup d'etat. The Horde on the Second War was already demonic-control free, not even Gul'dan was working for the Legion.

    Also, this would change the events on Draenor. Ner'zhul would most likely support Doomhammer, without the need to search for greener pastures. Grom's importance would be way smaller.
    Last edited by Tauror; 2012-11-23 at 01:38 PM.

  20. #20
    Old God Nindoriel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    10,678
    Quote Originally Posted by Tauror View Post
    Everyone is focusing too much on the Legion. Kil'jaeden abandoned the Horde after Draenei genocide, they left the orcs. The Shadow Council was hunted down by Doomhammer after his coup d'etat. The Horde on the Second War was already demonic-control free, not even Gul'dan was working for the Legion.

    Also, this would change the events on Draenor. Ner'zhul would most likely support Doomhammer, without the need to search for greener pastures. Grom's importance would be way smaller.
    No Gul'dan was not working for the Legion. He was only hunting after the Eye of Sargeras, which lost the orcs the second war.
    But the orcs were still bound to Mannoroth, because they drank his blood.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •