Was Azshara Born... A Troll?

[Combatbulter]

Be aware, all we know is the Night Elves came blazing out of the area around the Well of Eternity and started destroying everything. It says nothing of them doing this straight after creation, for all we know, they existed by the Well of Eternity for thousands of years before that.

Indeed we can only speculate, but their empire still couldn't have existed for longer than 6.000 years, though it was mentioned they rose to power in a very short period of time. 5.000 years are more likely, unfortunately we have no solid dates -.-

[Frontenac]

Be aware, all we know is the Night Elves came blazing out of the area around the Well of Eternity and started destroying everything. It says nothing of them doing this straight after creation, for all we know, they existed by the Well of Eternity for thousands of years before that.

Indeed, the priesthood of Elune existed long before the Night Elves had discovered that they could use the Well's magic and use it against their enemies.

[Grocalis]

Indeed we can only speculate, but their empire still couldn't have existed for longer than 6.000 years, though it was mentioned they rose to power in a very short period of time. 5.000 years are more likely, unfortunately we have no solid dates -.-

The date issue is the largest, since the timeline itself has been rather fluid for a long time. Blizzard will change it when they feel the story fits better.

For instance, WC2 starts with the little intro "6 years have passed since the First War between orc and man", which implies six years passed since the war ended and the new one was about to begin. The newer timeline instead makes it so six years have passed since Medivh opened the portal, and only a year between the First and Second Wars.

[Combatbulter]

The date issue is the largest, since the timeline itself has been rather fluid for a long time. Blizzard will change it when they feel the story fits better.

For instance, WC2 starts with the little intro "6 years have passed since the First War between orc and man", which implies six years passed since the war ended and the new one was about to begin. The newer timeline instead makes it so six years have passed since Medivh opened the portal, and only a year between the First and Second Wars.

I hope they establish a fitting timeline with major events, sometimes it gets downright confusing.

[huth]

real life =/= wow

kil'jeaden and archimonde within life time became demons
fel orcs within a generation
fel elves within a generation
charmander into charmelion(sp) into charizard within a few hours

However, none of those are evolution. Even if pokemon falsely calls it that. Evolution is, by definition, over multiple generations. If that isn't the case, it's not evolution.

[Grocalis]

However, none of those are evolution. Even if pokemon falsely calls it that. Evolution is, by definition, over multiple generations. If that isn't the case, it's not evolution.

Depends. Technically one could call the sudden change from one race into another to be mutation, but mutation itself is mentioned as a possible driver of evolution.

We could get lost in the semantics of the whole thing, but the term "evolution" in this type of setting is not exactly a simple one. For the most part, the term is used for whenever one race is altered to become another one, either through long changes due to generations or quick changes through magic. Example, take a trip back down to Blackrock Decent, fight the second boss, and she will transform her human minions into "Evolved Twilight Zealots", basically massive dragonkin brutes.

Even if we do take it as having to occur over generations to count as "evolution", what would be call the sudden birth of humanity in the WarCraft setting? They happened over only a single generation.

[Verain]

Sure, why not.

[checking facts]

It would surprise me if she was born a troll, because evolution takes place over the course of generations, and I don't believe that the transformation of trolls into Kaldorei was an instantaneous process-- that's not how evolution works. Nor, I don't think, would she have been born a distinctly Kaldorei being from two distinctly trollish beings. My understanding is that it happened over time to a certain segment of the Dark Trolls due to their proximity to the Well.

evolution in WoW is usually fueled by magic. and as we know, magic is perfectly capable of instantaneous transformations. just look at druids and warlocks. it wouldn't surprise me if azshara found a way to reshape herself and her fellow trolls with the power of the well, and than brainwash them to think they had always been that way.

edit: maybe her original troll name was az'shara lol

[Justignoreme]

The Well of Eternity indeed granted Night Elves their immortality. Nordrassil was grown over the Second Well of Eternity to bprevent any more demonic incursions through it. It also dispelled its corrupting influence. Through Nordrassil and Nozdormu's blessing that linked them to the World Tree, the Night Elves had access to the Well's power to grant immortality once more, but without its corrupting effects. When Nordrassil was "destroyed", that link was broken, and the Night Elves became mortals.

The Well never had any corrupting influence. Azshara's corruption and that of her Highborne were their own doing. Sargeras detected the well, saw who was in charge of its oversight, and offered them the chance to be more powerful than they ever thought, all they had to do was abandon Elune, slaughter their people and bring him into their world. Magic doesn't corrupt, power does. One thing I disagree with immensely on how the Night Elves conducted themselves banning arcane magic after the sundering. It was done out of fear.

The night elves could have existed for 16.000 years max. This is the time the trolls beat the aqir and shortly afterwards their empires crumbled under Night elven onslaughts. Which means the night elven empire existed for roughly 6.000 years, there might have been several generations of night elves alive, when the burning legion struck.

We can't say max at all, there is no time line. The trolls defeating the aqir means nothing, really. Trolls could easily be exaggerating and there is nothing concrete in lore. We also know the ages of elves prior to immortality, 6000 years is not several generations, just a few for Night Elves prior to immortality. For trolls, however, it's hundreds of generations. Their stories and lore, by virtue of their short life spans should be less valid than those of the Night Elves.

Be aware, all we know is the Night Elves came blazing out of the area around the Well of Eternity and started destroying everything. It says nothing of them doing this straight after creation, for all we know, they existed by the Well of Eternity for thousands of years before that.

They didn't start "destroying everything", they aided the Pandaren in their uprising against the Mogu. When the Zandalari came to help the Mogu, the Night Elves helped the Pandaren. When the war in Pandaria ended the Night Elves persisted, determined to end the Troll threat once and for all.

---------- Post added 2012-11-26 at 09:13 PM ----------

Indeed, the priesthood of Elune existed long before the Night Elves had discovered that they could use the Well's magic and use it against their enemies.

There is lore that exists, not sure who wrote it, that said Night Elf high priestesses can ascend to join Elune. This is supported by these priestesses appearing to players and translating Elune's Darnassian for the player in a now removed Winterspring quest.

[Combatbulter]

We can't say max at all, there is no time line. The trolls defeating the aqir means nothing, really. Trolls could easily be exaggerating and there is nothing concrete in lore. We also know the ages of elves prior to immortality, 6000 years is not several generations, just a few for Night Elves prior to immortality. For trolls, however, it's hundreds of generations. Their stories and lore, by virtue of their short life spans should be less valid than those of the Night Elves.

Hey I am only working with the numbers blizz gave us, we know the Trolls are the ancestors of night elves, we know the trolls defeated the Aqir 16.000 years ago and shortly afterwards night elves popped up and began beating the trolls by using their magic.

They didn't start "destroying everything", they aided the Pandaren in their uprising against the Mogu. When the Zandalari came to help the Mogu, the Night Elves helped the Pandaren. When the war in Pandaria ended the Night Elves persisted, determined to end the Troll threat once and for all.

Can you give me a link for that my ally toon isn't 90 yet and I might have missed this piece of information.

[Frontenac]

The Well never had any corrupting influence. Azshara's corruption and that of her Highborne were their own doing. Sargeras detected the well, saw who was in charge of its oversight, and offered them the chance to be more powerful than they ever thought, all they had to do was abandon Elune, slaughter their people and bring him into their world. Magic doesn't corrupt, power does. One thing I disagree with immensely on how the Night Elves conducted themselves banning arcane magic after the sundering. It was done out of fear.

In the Warcraft universe, arcane magic has a corrupting effect. It is an established fact. It is highly addictive and makes people crave for ever more power. It also attracts demons, since arcane magic comes from their realm, the Twisting Nether. The Well of Eternity is the main source of arcane magic on Azeroth, so it does have a corrupting effect. Druids are not the only one to despise magic, you know. Paladins too, precisely because of the corrupting effect of arcane magic.

[Combatbulter]

In the Warcraft universe, arcane magic has a corrupting effect. It is an established fact. It is highly addictive and makes people crave for ever more power. It also attracts demons, since arcane magic comes from their realm, the Twisting Nether. The Well of Eternity is the main source of arcane magic on Azeroth, so it does have a corrupting effect. Druids are not the only one to despise magic, you know. Paladins too, precisely because of the corrupting effect of arcane magic.

The well of eternity was at the very same time also the source of most of the life on Azeroth, the ley lines are like blood veins for the planet, the arcane isn't actually evil it is a part of the very planet walked upon. It is a power source which can be used in different ways. The world tree drains it strength not from nature but from the second well of eternity.

[Justignoreme]

In the Warcraft universe, arcane magic has a corrupting effect. It is an established fact. It is highly addictive and makes people crave for ever more power. It also attracts demons, since arcane magic comes from their realm, the Twisting Nether. The Well of Eternity is the main source of arcane magic on Azeroth, so it does have a corrupting effect. Druids are not the only one to despise magic, you know. Paladins too, precisely because of the corrupting effect of arcane magic.

No, it doesn't. I'm not going to go into the nature of Arcane and Fel, it's a bit too much subject matter, but the arcane is NOT a corrupting force, the Arcane is not from the twisting nether, the arcane only makes weak souls and minds crave it and power. The arcane is wielded by the Titans and the Blue Dragonflight without corruption. The reckless use of it is what attracts demons, they detect its signature, they draw it, turn it into fel energy and that is what corrupts and mutates. Druids and Paladins fear it because they can't comprehend how it works only that it has caused problems in the past. Paladins should've realised by now even their beloved Light cannot exist without shadow, a reality of the Light and Naaru beings made of it. So it's not so cut and dry and you make it seem.

---------- Post added 2012-11-26 at 11:34 PM ----------

Can you give me a link for that my ally toon isn't 90 yet and I might have missed this piece of information.

http://www.scrollsoflore.com/forums/...ad.php?t=22949

"So I was actually told this lore a while ago by my good buddy Curll but told to sit on it until Pandaria was actually open in the beta. Now that its technically open, I'm gonna spill the beans ...

... Roughly 12,000 years ago, the current Mogu emperor dies and the Mogu engage in a civil war to determine who the next leader is. Using the chaos caused by the disarray, the Pandaren revolutionaries rise up and depose the Mogu, establishing the Pandaren Empire. In response, the Zandalari invade from the North, seeking to restore a Mogu to the throne (it is unclear which of the warring Mogu factions they supported, or even if they supported anyone before the Pandaren rose up). The Pandaren then reached out to the Night Elves, who began fighting a war against the Zandalari in the north, disrupting their supply lines and allowing the Pandaren to repel the invaders.

However, the Night Elves continued to wage war against the Zandalari even after they were repelled from Pandaria. What relationship, if any, the Zandalari Empire that ruled over the night elves had to the Gurubashi, Amani and Drakkari empires is unknown. The Pandaren, concerned by the night elves' expansionism and increasing use of arcane magic from the well of eternity, sever ties to their former allies. I could have a bit of this wrong and it's hearsay until the exact quests that my friend got this info from are available for me to read. If its any clearer once I have the first hand source, I'll update the original posts. For anyone in the beta, I was told the questline runs through the Jade Forest, Krasarang Wilds and Kun-Lai summit, so feel free to double check."

http://www.wowpedia.org/War_between_...e_Twin_Empires

The night elves developed along the shores of the Well of Eternity, and so they were strengthened by its energies. Despite the trolls’ attempts to keep this new race from claiming further territories, the night elves built up a Mighty Empire that expanded rapidly across Kalimdor. Wielding fierce magics never before imagined by the trolls, the night elves soon threatened the two greatest empires on Azeroth, the Amani and Gurubashi Empires.

The night elves systematically dismantled the troll’s defenses and supply chains. Unable to counter the elves’ destructive magics, the trolls buckled under the onslaught. The territories of the Gurubashi and Amani empires fragmented within only a few years, and the night elves' shockingly quick victory incurred the trolls' eternal hatred.[1]

http://wow.joystiq.com/2012/09/26/kn...the-sundering/

The last Emperor of Pandaria

The pandaren were no stranger to the night elves. In the days before the Sundering, there were pandaren who sought out the kaldorei. Whether or not the two races were on good terms prior to Azshara's reign is unclear. However, once Azshara came into power and her Highborne began experimenting with the Well of Eternity, a small contingent of pandaren explorers traveled to the Highborne with a gift -- a box that contained all the arcane power the kaldorei would ever need.

The box was empty, the message clear. It was a warning to the Highborne from the pandaren people, a warning that the kaldorei didn't bother to heed. During this time, a pandaren named Shaohao was crowned Emperor of Pandaria, the last Emperor Pandaria would ever see. As was his duty, he sought the council of the Waterspeaker of the Jinyu. But the vision of the Waterspeaker horrified he and the Emperor both. He saw a kingdom of sorcerers surrounding a great well, calling forth a host of demons as green fire rained from the sky as the world shattered in response.

Snippit the first one to save space. But the hinting is the Night Elves didn't start tapping into the Well until Azshara took power, which was some 13000 years ago. Tyrande and Malfurion were not children at this time, have a few centuries under their belt. The small Night Elf empire was a vassal state to the Trolls, probably had to pay tribute, and knowing what barbarians and brutes the Trolls are it's easy to say they were tired of having to give up their wealth and possibly citizens to the trolls for sacrifice or whatever butchery the Trolls take part in. Pandaria's revolution was a perfect opportunities to flex their muscles, the Night Elves smaller empire fueled by magic and military might crushed the Trolls. I think the Pandaren's experience with the Mogu and their magic is what ultimately made them distance themselves from the Night Elves, as the Highborne's arrogance and powerlust only grew larger with the defeat the Night Elves gave the Trolls. something that should be noticed, the scrolls of lore post about this questline may be obsolete info as such a questline does not exist, at least not laying out the Night Elves lore so clearly. They are in Krasarang to find pools of Light in Tyrande's vision.

[Combatbulter]

No, it doesn't. I'm not going to go into the nature of Arcane and Fel, it's a bit too much subject matter, but the arcane is NOT a corrupting force, the Arcane is not from the twisting nether, the arcane only makes weak souls and minds crave it and power. The arcane is wielded by the Titans and the Blue Dragonflight without corruption. The reckless use of it is what attracts demons, they detect its signature, they draw it, turn it into fel energy and that is what corrupts and mutates. Druids and Paladins fear it because they can't comprehend how it works only that it has caused problems in the past. Paladins should've realised by now even their beloved Light cannot exist without shadow, a reality of the Light and Naaru beings made of it. So it's not so cut and dry and you make it seem.

---------- Post added 2012-11-26 at 11:34 PM ----------



http://www.scrollsoflore.com/forums/...ad.php?t=22949


http://www.wowpedia.org/War_between_...e_Twin_Empires


http://wow.joystiq.com/2012/09/26/kn...the-sundering/


Snippit the first one to save space. But the hinting is the Night Elves didn't start tapping into the Well until Azshara took power, which was some 13000 years ago. Tyrande and Malfurion were not children at this time, have a few centuries under their belt. The small Night Elf empire was a vassal state to the Trolls, probably had to pay tribute, and knowing what barbarians and brutes the Trolls are it's easy to say they were tired of having to give up their wealth and possibly citizens to the trolls for sacrifice or whatever butchery the Trolls take part in. Pandaria's revolution was a perfect opportunities to flex their muscles, the Night Elves smaller empire fueled by magic and military might crushed the Trolls. I think the Pandaren's experience with the Mogu and their magic is what ultimately made them distance themselves from the Night Elves, as the Highborne's arrogance and powerlust only grew larger with the defeat the Night Elves gave the Trolls. something that should be noticed, the scrolls of lore post about this questline may be obsolete info as such a questline does not exist, at least not laying out the Night Elves lore so clearly. They are in Krasarang to find pools of Light in Tyrande's vision.

Thank you very much, that will be quite the interesting read.

[Frontenac]

The well of eternity was at the very same time also the source of most of the life on Azeroth, the ley lines are like blood veins for the planet, the arcane isn't actually evil it is a part of the very planet walked upon. It is a power source which can be used in different ways. The world tree drains it strength not from nature but from the second well of eternity.

The arcane corrupts anyone who uses it. Left alone, the Well's energy was the engine of evolution on Azeroth, but used by mortals, it is corrupting. It is like fire. Stand by it, it gives you warmth. Touch it and you'll get burned. The arcane was not meant to be used by mortals.

[Combatbulter]

The arcane corrupts anyone who uses it. Left alone, the Well's energy was the engine of evolution on Azeroth, but used by mortals, it is corrupting. It is like fire. Stand by it, it gives you warmth. Touch it and you'll get burned. The arcane was not meant to be used by mortals.

The arcane is all around the planet it is a natural part of the world, it is not corrupting. It is not Fel it is just energy.

[Frontenac]

The arcane is all around the planet it is a natural part of the world, it is not corrupting. It is not Fel it is just energy.

Fel magic is just a more powerful and corrupting kind of arcane magic.

[Combatbulter]

Fel magic is just a more powerful and corrupting kind of arcane magic.

Is there any canon source left to confirm this, that arcane is corrupting?

[GennGreymane]

However, none of those are evolution. Even if pokemon falsely calls it that. Evolution is, by definition, over multiple generations. If that isn't the case, it's not evolution.

and yet vykrul babies were humans. a vykrul gave birth to a human. insta evolution

[Grocalis]

Is there any canon source left to confirm this, that arcane is corrupting?

It's always been assumed that arcane can have a corrupting influence, and this has been hinted on as far back as the novels, even "The Last Guardian" touched on it. However, it's really not the arcane itself that does it, but what the arcane gives the person. It goes back to the saying, "power corrupts", those that take part in magic often do so because of the power it gives, and in turn, they look deeper and deeper into what power they can pull out of it. Fel magic is the "dark side" of the arcane, and people stumble into it because such magic often leads to the most power the fastest.

The High Elves took this to such extremes, that magic itself was like heroine to them. Once they stopped having a super-powerful way to keep the magic saturating them, they went into horrible withdrawals. Sucking the Fel magic out of demons was the only way they could sate the hunger until the Sunwell was reignited.

If you want a close example of what Arcane is from another medium, think "The Force". It's not good nor bad, but those that take part in it's practice, without discipline, can get lost in the darker side of it.