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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Daetur View Post
    It would surprise me if she was born a troll, because evolution takes place over the course of generations, and I don't believe that the transformation of trolls into Kaldorei was an instantaneous process-- that's not how evolution works. Nor, I don't think, would she have been born a distinctly Kaldorei being from two distinctly trollish beings. My understanding is that it happened over time to a certain segment of the Dark Trolls due to their proximity to the Well.
    evolution in WoW is usually fueled by magic. and as we know, magic is perfectly capable of instantaneous transformations. just look at druids and warlocks. it wouldn't surprise me if azshara found a way to reshape herself and her fellow trolls with the power of the well, and than brainwash them to think they had always been that way.

    edit: maybe her original troll name was az'shara lol
    Last edited by checking facts; 2012-11-26 at 08:44 PM.
    Warlorcs of Draenorc made me quit. You can't have my stuff.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Frontenac View Post
    The Well of Eternity indeed granted Night Elves their immortality. Nordrassil was grown over the Second Well of Eternity to bprevent any more demonic incursions through it. It also dispelled its corrupting influence. Through Nordrassil and Nozdormu's blessing that linked them to the World Tree, the Night Elves had access to the Well's power to grant immortality once more, but without its corrupting effects. When Nordrassil was "destroyed", that link was broken, and the Night Elves became mortals.
    The Well never had any corrupting influence. Azshara's corruption and that of her Highborne were their own doing. Sargeras detected the well, saw who was in charge of its oversight, and offered them the chance to be more powerful than they ever thought, all they had to do was abandon Elune, slaughter their people and bring him into their world. Magic doesn't corrupt, power does. One thing I disagree with immensely on how the Night Elves conducted themselves banning arcane magic after the sundering. It was done out of fear.
    The night elves could have existed for 16.000 years max. This is the time the trolls beat the aqir and shortly afterwards their empires crumbled under Night elven onslaughts. Which means the night elven empire existed for roughly 6.000 years, there might have been several generations of night elves alive, when the burning legion struck.
    We can't say max at all, there is no time line. The trolls defeating the aqir means nothing, really. Trolls could easily be exaggerating and there is nothing concrete in lore. We also know the ages of elves prior to immortality, 6000 years is not several generations, just a few for Night Elves prior to immortality. For trolls, however, it's hundreds of generations. Their stories and lore, by virtue of their short life spans should be less valid than those of the Night Elves.

    Be aware, all we know is the Night Elves came blazing out of the area around the Well of Eternity and started destroying everything. It says nothing of them doing this straight after creation, for all we know, they existed by the Well of Eternity for thousands of years before that.
    They didn't start "destroying everything", they aided the Pandaren in their uprising against the Mogu. When the Zandalari came to help the Mogu, the Night Elves helped the Pandaren. When the war in Pandaria ended the Night Elves persisted, determined to end the Troll threat once and for all.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-26 at 09:13 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontenac View Post
    Indeed, the priesthood of Elune existed long before the Night Elves had discovered that they could use the Well's magic and use it against their enemies.
    There is lore that exists, not sure who wrote it, that said Night Elf high priestesses can ascend to join Elune. This is supported by these priestesses appearing to players and translating Elune's Darnassian for the player in a now removed Winterspring quest.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    We can't say max at all, there is no time line. The trolls defeating the aqir means nothing, really. Trolls could easily be exaggerating and there is nothing concrete in lore. We also know the ages of elves prior to immortality, 6000 years is not several generations, just a few for Night Elves prior to immortality. For trolls, however, it's hundreds of generations. Their stories and lore, by virtue of their short life spans should be less valid than those of the Night Elves.

    Hey I am only working with the numbers blizz gave us, we know the Trolls are the ancestors of night elves, we know the trolls defeated the Aqir 16.000 years ago and shortly afterwards night elves popped up and began beating the trolls by using their magic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    They didn't start "destroying everything", they aided the Pandaren in their uprising against the Mogu. When the Zandalari came to help the Mogu, the Night Elves helped the Pandaren. When the war in Pandaria ended the Night Elves persisted, determined to end the Troll threat once and for all.
    Can you give me a link for that my ally toon isn't 90 yet and I might have missed this piece of information.

  4. #84
    Scarab Lord Frontenac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    The Well never had any corrupting influence. Azshara's corruption and that of her Highborne were their own doing. Sargeras detected the well, saw who was in charge of its oversight, and offered them the chance to be more powerful than they ever thought, all they had to do was abandon Elune, slaughter their people and bring him into their world. Magic doesn't corrupt, power does. One thing I disagree with immensely on how the Night Elves conducted themselves banning arcane magic after the sundering. It was done out of fear.
    In the Warcraft universe, arcane magic has a corrupting effect. It is an established fact. It is highly addictive and makes people crave for ever more power. It also attracts demons, since arcane magic comes from their realm, the Twisting Nether. The Well of Eternity is the main source of arcane magic on Azeroth, so it does have a corrupting effect. Druids are not the only one to despise magic, you know. Paladins too, precisely because of the corrupting effect of arcane magic.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Frontenac View Post
    In the Warcraft universe, arcane magic has a corrupting effect. It is an established fact. It is highly addictive and makes people crave for ever more power. It also attracts demons, since arcane magic comes from their realm, the Twisting Nether. The Well of Eternity is the main source of arcane magic on Azeroth, so it does have a corrupting effect. Druids are not the only one to despise magic, you know. Paladins too, precisely because of the corrupting effect of arcane magic.
    The well of eternity was at the very same time also the source of most of the life on Azeroth, the ley lines are like blood veins for the planet, the arcane isn't actually evil it is a part of the very planet walked upon. It is a power source which can be used in different ways. The world tree drains it strength not from nature but from the second well of eternity.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Frontenac View Post
    In the Warcraft universe, arcane magic has a corrupting effect. It is an established fact. It is highly addictive and makes people crave for ever more power. It also attracts demons, since arcane magic comes from their realm, the Twisting Nether. The Well of Eternity is the main source of arcane magic on Azeroth, so it does have a corrupting effect. Druids are not the only one to despise magic, you know. Paladins too, precisely because of the corrupting effect of arcane magic.
    No, it doesn't. I'm not going to go into the nature of Arcane and Fel, it's a bit too much subject matter, but the arcane is NOT a corrupting force, the Arcane is not from the twisting nether, the arcane only makes weak souls and minds crave it and power. The arcane is wielded by the Titans and the Blue Dragonflight without corruption. The reckless use of it is what attracts demons, they detect its signature, they draw it, turn it into fel energy and that is what corrupts and mutates. Druids and Paladins fear it because they can't comprehend how it works only that it has caused problems in the past. Paladins should've realised by now even their beloved Light cannot exist without shadow, a reality of the Light and Naaru beings made of it. So it's not so cut and dry and you make it seem.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-26 at 11:34 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Can you give me a link for that my ally toon isn't 90 yet and I might have missed this piece of information.
    http://www.scrollsoflore.com/forums/...ad.php?t=22949
    "So I was actually told this lore a while ago by my good buddy Curll but told to sit on it until Pandaria was actually open in the beta. Now that its technically open, I'm gonna spill the beans ...

    ... Roughly 12,000 years ago, the current Mogu emperor dies and the Mogu engage in a civil war to determine who the next leader is. Using the chaos caused by the disarray, the Pandaren revolutionaries rise up and depose the Mogu, establishing the Pandaren Empire. In response, the Zandalari invade from the North, seeking to restore a Mogu to the throne (it is unclear which of the warring Mogu factions they supported, or even if they supported anyone before the Pandaren rose up). The Pandaren then reached out to the Night Elves, who began fighting a war against the Zandalari in the north, disrupting their supply lines and allowing the Pandaren to repel the invaders.

    However, the Night Elves continued to wage war against the Zandalari even after they were repelled from Pandaria. What relationship, if any, the Zandalari Empire that ruled over the night elves had to the Gurubashi, Amani and Drakkari empires is unknown. The Pandaren, concerned by the night elves' expansionism and increasing use of arcane magic from the well of eternity, sever ties to their former allies. I could have a bit of this wrong and it's hearsay until the exact quests that my friend got this info from are available for me to read. If its any clearer once I have the first hand source, I'll update the original posts. For anyone in the beta, I was told the questline runs through the Jade Forest, Krasarang Wilds and Kun-Lai summit, so feel free to double check."
    http://www.wowpedia.org/War_between_...e_Twin_Empires
    The night elves developed along the shores of the Well of Eternity, and so they were strengthened by its energies. Despite the trolls’ attempts to keep this new race from claiming further territories, the night elves built up a Mighty Empire that expanded rapidly across Kalimdor. Wielding fierce magics never before imagined by the trolls, the night elves soon threatened the two greatest empires on Azeroth, the Amani and Gurubashi Empires.

    The night elves systematically dismantled the troll’s defenses and supply chains. Unable to counter the elves’ destructive magics, the trolls buckled under the onslaught. The territories of the Gurubashi and Amani empires fragmented within only a few years, and the night elves' shockingly quick victory incurred the trolls' eternal hatred.[1]
    http://wow.joystiq.com/2012/09/26/kn...the-sundering/
    The last Emperor of Pandaria

    The pandaren were no stranger to the night elves. In the days before the Sundering, there were pandaren who sought out the kaldorei. Whether or not the two races were on good terms prior to Azshara's reign is unclear. However, once Azshara came into power and her Highborne began experimenting with the Well of Eternity, a small contingent of pandaren explorers traveled to the Highborne with a gift -- a box that contained all the arcane power the kaldorei would ever need.

    The box was empty, the message clear. It was a warning to the Highborne from the pandaren people, a warning that the kaldorei didn't bother to heed. During this time, a pandaren named Shaohao was crowned Emperor of Pandaria, the last Emperor Pandaria would ever see. As was his duty, he sought the council of the Waterspeaker of the Jinyu. But the vision of the Waterspeaker horrified he and the Emperor both. He saw a kingdom of sorcerers surrounding a great well, calling forth a host of demons as green fire rained from the sky as the world shattered in response.
    Snippit the first one to save space. But the hinting is the Night Elves didn't start tapping into the Well until Azshara took power, which was some 13000 years ago. Tyrande and Malfurion were not children at this time, have a few centuries under their belt. The small Night Elf empire was a vassal state to the Trolls, probably had to pay tribute, and knowing what barbarians and brutes the Trolls are it's easy to say they were tired of having to give up their wealth and possibly citizens to the trolls for sacrifice or whatever butchery the Trolls take part in. Pandaria's revolution was a perfect opportunities to flex their muscles, the Night Elves smaller empire fueled by magic and military might crushed the Trolls. I think the Pandaren's experience with the Mogu and their magic is what ultimately made them distance themselves from the Night Elves, as the Highborne's arrogance and powerlust only grew larger with the defeat the Night Elves gave the Trolls. something that should be noticed, the scrolls of lore post about this questline may be obsolete info as such a questline does not exist, at least not laying out the Night Elves lore so clearly. They are in Krasarang to find pools of Light in Tyrande's vision.
    Last edited by Justignoreme; 2012-11-26 at 11:35 PM.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    No, it doesn't. I'm not going to go into the nature of Arcane and Fel, it's a bit too much subject matter, but the arcane is NOT a corrupting force, the Arcane is not from the twisting nether, the arcane only makes weak souls and minds crave it and power. The arcane is wielded by the Titans and the Blue Dragonflight without corruption. The reckless use of it is what attracts demons, they detect its signature, they draw it, turn it into fel energy and that is what corrupts and mutates. Druids and Paladins fear it because they can't comprehend how it works only that it has caused problems in the past. Paladins should've realised by now even their beloved Light cannot exist without shadow, a reality of the Light and Naaru beings made of it. So it's not so cut and dry and you make it seem.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-26 at 11:34 PM ----------



    http://www.scrollsoflore.com/forums/...ad.php?t=22949


    http://www.wowpedia.org/War_between_...e_Twin_Empires


    http://wow.joystiq.com/2012/09/26/kn...the-sundering/


    Snippit the first one to save space. But the hinting is the Night Elves didn't start tapping into the Well until Azshara took power, which was some 13000 years ago. Tyrande and Malfurion were not children at this time, have a few centuries under their belt. The small Night Elf empire was a vassal state to the Trolls, probably had to pay tribute, and knowing what barbarians and brutes the Trolls are it's easy to say they were tired of having to give up their wealth and possibly citizens to the trolls for sacrifice or whatever butchery the Trolls take part in. Pandaria's revolution was a perfect opportunities to flex their muscles, the Night Elves smaller empire fueled by magic and military might crushed the Trolls. I think the Pandaren's experience with the Mogu and their magic is what ultimately made them distance themselves from the Night Elves, as the Highborne's arrogance and powerlust only grew larger with the defeat the Night Elves gave the Trolls. something that should be noticed, the scrolls of lore post about this questline may be obsolete info as such a questline does not exist, at least not laying out the Night Elves lore so clearly. They are in Krasarang to find pools of Light in Tyrande's vision.
    Thank you very much, that will be quite the interesting read.

  8. #88
    Scarab Lord Frontenac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    The well of eternity was at the very same time also the source of most of the life on Azeroth, the ley lines are like blood veins for the planet, the arcane isn't actually evil it is a part of the very planet walked upon. It is a power source which can be used in different ways. The world tree drains it strength not from nature but from the second well of eternity.
    The arcane corrupts anyone who uses it. Left alone, the Well's energy was the engine of evolution on Azeroth, but used by mortals, it is corrupting. It is like fire. Stand by it, it gives you warmth. Touch it and you'll get burned. The arcane was not meant to be used by mortals.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Frontenac View Post
    The arcane corrupts anyone who uses it. Left alone, the Well's energy was the engine of evolution on Azeroth, but used by mortals, it is corrupting. It is like fire. Stand by it, it gives you warmth. Touch it and you'll get burned. The arcane was not meant to be used by mortals.
    The arcane is all around the planet it is a natural part of the world, it is not corrupting. It is not Fel it is just energy.

  10. #90
    Scarab Lord Frontenac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    The arcane is all around the planet it is a natural part of the world, it is not corrupting. It is not Fel it is just energy.
    Fel magic is just a more powerful and corrupting kind of arcane magic.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Frontenac View Post
    Fel magic is just a more powerful and corrupting kind of arcane magic.
    Is there any canon source left to confirm this, that arcane is corrupting?
    Last edited by Combatbutler; 2012-11-27 at 01:57 AM.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    However, none of those are evolution. Even if pokemon falsely calls it that. Evolution is, by definition, over multiple generations. If that isn't the case, it's not evolution.
    and yet vykrul babies were humans. a vykrul gave birth to a human. insta evolution

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Is there any canon source left to confirm this, that arcane is corrupting?
    It's always been assumed that arcane can have a corrupting influence, and this has been hinted on as far back as the novels, even "The Last Guardian" touched on it. However, it's really not the arcane itself that does it, but what the arcane gives the person. It goes back to the saying, "power corrupts", those that take part in magic often do so because of the power it gives, and in turn, they look deeper and deeper into what power they can pull out of it. Fel magic is the "dark side" of the arcane, and people stumble into it because such magic often leads to the most power the fastest.

    The High Elves took this to such extremes, that magic itself was like heroine to them. Once they stopped having a super-powerful way to keep the magic saturating them, they went into horrible withdrawals. Sucking the Fel magic out of demons was the only way they could sate the hunger until the Sunwell was reignited.

    If you want a close example of what Arcane is from another medium, think "The Force". It's not good nor bad, but those that take part in it's practice, without discipline, can get lost in the darker side of it.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Frontenac View Post
    The arcane corrupts anyone who uses it. Left alone, the Well's energy was the engine of evolution on Azeroth, but used by mortals, it is corrupting. It is like fire. Stand by it, it gives you warmth. Touch it and you'll get burned. The arcane was not meant to be used by mortals.
    No, it doesn't. And so you say fire corrupts too? Lol
    Ya, Arcane is dangerous in the wrong hands, so is a gun or a sword or leadership of a group of nations *cough* Garrosh Hellscream *cough*. Why does everyone need to think its a corrupting force? Malicious intentions =/= corruption. Azshara and the Highborne were not CORRUPTED by the Arcane, they wanted more and more power. If they were corrupted by anything it was their own ambition leading them to wage war on their people, abandon Elune, and seek to bring Sargeras into the world...

    The High Elves took this to such extremes, that magic itself was like heroine to them. Once they stopped having a super-powerful way to keep the magic saturating them, they went into horrible withdrawals. Sucking the Fel magic out of demons was the only way they could sate the hunger until the Sunwell was reignited.
    Those whom were weak and without conviction did, the others refused to suck the magic out of living things and then demons to "survive" because they knew they didn't have to, hence the schism between High Elf and Blood Elf, and the reason the Quel'dorei's eyes don't glow green. It's a matter of personal willpower, self-control, and strength. Most people simply don't have it. Doesn't mean there aren't those who can control it...

    If you want a close example of what Arcane is from another medium, think "The Force". It's not good nor bad, but those that take part in it's practice, without discipline, can get lost in the darker side of it.
    One could argue the same about the Light, or Nature and Elements. Scarlet Crusade, Twilight Shamans, etc. etc.



    ---------- Post added 2012-11-27 at 07:14 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    That's actually better described as mutation, not evolution.
    Though the two are remarkably close to one another I'd say.
    In real world science, mutation drives evolution.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    And yet we're talking about game science ^^

    As I said, the two are close enough to effectively be one and that same. In regards to the Vrykul and their human baby, that is mutation. The mutation is generally a new form of being closely related to it's 'parent' but different in ways that help it survive certain things. Then, as the mutation happens more and more, it's called evolution.
    I'd say, with confidence that, trolls didn't start birthing tuskless, upright children with 5 toes and 4 digits and an opposable thumb, refined, delicate features, long eyebrows and glowing eyes.

    Humans are literally just miniature Vrykul. There was no change other than stature.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    And yet we're talking about game science ^^

    As I said, the two are close enough to effectively be one and that same. In regards to the Vrykul and their human baby, that is mutation. The mutation is generally a new form of being closely related to it's 'parent' but different in ways that help it survive certain things. Then, as the mutation happens more and more, it's called evolution.
    Mutation causes evolution. It is not, itself, evolution, just like a spark plug is not an engine on it's own.

  17. #97
    Scarab Lord Frontenac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    No, it doesn't. And so you say fire corrupts too? Lol
    Ya, Arcane is dangerous in the wrong hands, so is a gun or a sword or leadership of a group of nations *cough* Garrosh Hellscream *cough*. Why does everyone need to think its a corrupting force? Malicious intentions =/= corruption. Azshara and the Highborne were not CORRUPTED by the Arcane, they wanted more and more power. If they were corrupted by anything it was their own ambition leading them to wage war on their people, abandon Elune, and seek to bring Sargeras into the world...
    I did not say that fire corrupts. I said that it burned if you touch it, but gave warmth if you leave it be. Same with arcane magic. It was never meant to be used directly by mortals by the titans, but as a mean to help life develop on Azeroth. Arcane magic is highly addictive. People who use it want more and more power, they crave it. They become haughty and proud. Azshara wanted more and more power and was seduced by Sargeras and his fel magic, which is a more powerful and even more corrupting form of arcane magic. So yes, they were corrupted, if only moraly, by their use of arcane magic. However , we know that some of them craved so much magic that they accepted to become demons themselves (Satyrs, Illidan). Now if that's not corruption, I don't know what it is. If they simply left the Well be, like the night elven priesthood did, they would not have been so tempted to accept Sargeras's offer and would have been happy with the immortality it brought them.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-28 at 04:05 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    The last Emperor of Pandaria

    The pandaren were no stranger to the night elves. In the days before the Sundering, there were pandaren who sought out the kaldorei. Whether or not the two races were on good terms prior to Azshara's reign is unclear. However, once Azshara came into power and her Highborne began experimenting with the Well of Eternity, a small contingent of pandaren explorers traveled to the Highborne with a gift -- a box that contained all the arcane power the kaldorei would ever need.

    The box was empty, the message clear. It was a warning to the Highborne from the pandaren people, a warning that the kaldorei didn't bother to heed.
    Interesting pieace of info, thank you. What is the warning ? That the Kaldorei needed no arcane magic. Why? Because it is dangerous and corrupting.
    Last edited by Frontenac; 2012-11-28 at 03:57 AM.

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