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  1. #161
    Immortal Nindoriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    It is one being against almost the entire remains of a species, if you think about it logically it is almost a no brainer.
    If it was a sure thing that the Blood Elves would die without the Naarus powers then I can see the sense in it. If it's drain that things power or die, then I would have done the same thing. But if it's just one additional weapon, if they actually have alternatives like someone mentioned the priests were actually able to communicate with the light, if they actually have strong fighters and skilled mages, if they are not defenseless and stand a good chance, then I would say it's wrong. And there are alternative ways, like trying to communicate with the Naaru, trying to learn from the priests how they are still able to communicate with the light etc.

    But as things went down, it felt like it was just one more wicked thing the Blood Elves did.

  2. #162
    Warchief TheDangerZone's Avatar
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    My personal head-canon is that light doesn't runs on "goodness" but instead on sheer conviction and a bit self-righteousness. "Will" you might call it, it holy takes you to believe that your cause is the righteous one, truly believe it.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    Torturing an innocent being for their own ends.
    Makes you wonder though, considering it's revealed Muru allowed himself to be captured for the specific purpose he served. Can you fault the blood elves for doing what he wanted them to do?

  4. #164
    Elemental Lord Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    If it was a sure thing that the Blood Elves would die without the Naarus powers then I can see the sense in it. If it's drain that things power or die, then I would have done the same thing. But if it's just one additional weapon, if they actually have alternatives like someone mentioned the priests were actually able to communicate with the light, if they actually have strong fighters and skilled mages, if they are not defenseless and stand a good chance, then I would say it's wrong. And there are alternative ways, like trying to communicate with the Naaru, trying to learn from the priests how they are still able to communicate with the light etc.

    But as things went down, it felt like it was just one more wicked thing the Blood Elves did.
    I don't really blame them it was shady true, but given the additional information we received later on, Muru wanted to save these broken, desperate souls and the only way he saw he was able to do it was the way he did things. But maybe that is just me, I myself believe after all the cleansing of stratholme was necessary, simply because I let Malganis win once and was overrun by super Zombies^^

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-26 at 10:24 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Amonra View Post
    My personal head-canon is that light doesn't runs on "goodness" but instead on sheer conviction and a bit self-righteousness. "Will" you might call it, it holy takes you to believe that your cause is the righteous one, truly believe it.
    Though the new sunwell directly contradicts that as well every blood elf can now tap into the light even if they don't believe, though if this exposure to the light will change them in the near future remains to be seen, blizzard themselves said the blood elven society will change slowly.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Amonra View Post
    My personal head-canon is that light doesn't runs on "goodness" but instead on sheer conviction and a bit self-righteousness. "Will" you might call it, it holy takes you to believe that your cause is the righteous one, truly believe it.
    So basicaly, light is manifestation of hypocrisy.
    Last edited by Verdugo; 2012-11-26 at 09:37 PM.

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    So basicaly, light is manifestation of hypicrisy.
    It is only hypocritical if you want it to be.
    I don't see anything hypocritical about a force being powered off of "will", or what have you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grocalis View Post
    Makes you wonder though, considering it's revealed Muru allowed himself to be captured for the specific purpose he served. Can you fault the blood elves for doing what he wanted them to do?
    Just because he predicted their actions through their power lust, does not mean the power lust is not an issue.
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  7. #167
    Warchief TheDangerZone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Though the new sunwell directly contradicts that as well every blood elf can now tap into the light even if they don't believe, though if this exposure to the light will change them in the near future remains to be seen, blizzard themselves said the blood elven society will change slowly.
    To be honest, I'm not really sure how the physics of the new sunwell work. Sure we know it's a beacon of light, but does it inherently attune all blood elves to wield holy magic? Will it "imbue" them with light over time? I really don't know, but I think that if so, the sunwell then would work like a "cheat code" for using the light in lieu of more established metaphysics explanations. I don't really like this idea that much, but I can see it happening.

    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    So basicaly, light is manifestation of hypicrisy.
    Why hypocrisy? The "Greater Good" has always been a subjective idea, never an absolute; and a group's own line of justification is righteous as long as it doesn't contradicts itself, which would be required to be hypocrisy.

  8. #168
    Elemental Lord Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuffs View Post
    Just because he predicted their actions through their power lust, does not mean the power lust is not an issue.
    Velen was the one who foresaw what would happen, Muru just acted accordingly. Their power lust really isn't an issue, since at a certain point they have no interest to gather more power or to advance their territory, which is why they lived in isolation for thousands of years.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  9. #169
    Immortal Nindoriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grocalis View Post
    Makes you wonder though, considering it's revealed Muru allowed himself to be captured for the specific purpose he served. Can you fault the blood elves for doing what he wanted them to do?
    I knew that Muru sacrificed himself to reignite the Sunwell and to redeem the Blood Elves, but that he willingly let himself be tortured by them is news to me. Because that doesn't make any sense. Why would he let the Blood Elves force him to aid them, if he could've just actively aided them.

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Amonra View Post
    Why hypocrisy? The "Greater Good" has always been a subjective idea, never an absolute; and a group's own line of justification is righteous as long as it doesn't contradicts itself, which would be required to be hypocrisy.
    Well we still have mutated offsprings of cursed vikings preach light as symbol of purity...

  11. #171
    Elemental Lord Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    I knew that Muru sacrificed himself to reignite the Sunwell and to redeem the Blood Elves, but that he willingly let himself be tortured by them is news to me. Because that doesn't make any sense. Why would he let the Blood Elves force him to aid them, if he could've just actively aided them.
    It was in the dialogue between Liadrin and A'dal if I am not mistaken.

    Lady Liadrin says: I've come to realize our path was a false one. We were betrayed by the man we called our prince. In his lust for power, he sent the felblood to attack us, and spirit M'uru away to the Sunwell.
    A'dal says: Both our peoples suffered greatly at the hands of Kael'thas and his agents, Lady Liadrin. Your people were not the authors of their own fate, but they will die if they do not change.
    A'dal says: M'uru accepted his role in this long ago, knowing full well what would happen to him. Will you accept your own?
    Lady Liadrin says: I... I don't understand. You -- and M'uru -- knew all along that this would occur?
    A'dal says: It wasn't I who foretold it, but Velen of the Draenei:
    A'dal says: 'Silvery moon, washed in blood,'
    A'dal says: 'Led astray into the night, armed with sword of broken Light.'
    A'dal says: 'Broken, then betrayed by one, standing there bestride the sun.'
    A'dal says: 'At darkest hour, redemption comes, in knightly lady sworn to blood.'
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  12. #172
    Warchief TheDangerZone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    Well we still have mutated offsprings of cursed vikings preach light as symbol of purity...
    I don't see the point of this statement, why would humanity's genetics origins have to do with their beliefs?

  13. #173
    Elemental Lord Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amonra View Post
    I don't see the point of this statement, why would humanity's genetics origins have to do with their beliefs?
    I guess he wanted to point out that humans are impure? I am not quite sure myself.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    I guess he wanted to point out that humans are impure? I am not quite sure myself.
    Curse of flesh, its in the name.

  15. #175
    Elemental Lord Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    Curse of flesh, its in the name.
    Than say so and don't make it that cryptic.

    Oh well should be expected by one of Tzeentch followers, never a straight answer ;P
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  16. #176
    Immortal Nindoriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    It was in the dialogue between Liadrin and A'dal if I am not mistaken.

    Lady Liadrin says: I've come to realize our path was a false one. We were betrayed by the man we called our prince. In his lust for power, he sent the felblood to attack us, and spirit M'uru away to the Sunwell.
    A'dal says: Both our peoples suffered greatly at the hands of Kael'thas and his agents, Lady Liadrin. Your people were not the authors of their own fate, but they will die if they do not change.
    A'dal says: M'uru accepted his role in this long ago, knowing full well what would happen to him. Will you accept your own?
    Lady Liadrin says: I... I don't understand. You -- and M'uru -- knew all along that this would occur?
    A'dal says: It wasn't I who foretold it, but Velen of the Draenei:
    A'dal says: 'Silvery moon, washed in blood,'
    A'dal says: 'Led astray into the night, armed with sword of broken Light.'
    A'dal says: 'Broken, then betrayed by one, standing there bestride the sun.'
    A'dal says: 'At darkest hour, redemption comes, in knightly lady sworn to blood.'
    Then it depends on what "his role" means. If his role was to die in order to reignite the Sunwell then that makes sense. If Muru knew right from the beginning his powers were going to be drained by the people he was supposed to help anyway, why didn't he just actively help them. "Hey guys, I know you want to use my power, let's just make this all easier on everyone involved"

    In the case that Muru really willingly let himself be tortured by them, I still think what the Blood Elves did was wrong. Simply because they didn't know Muru was playing along and accepted his role in the whole thing. They still thought they were bending his will to their plans.

  17. #177
    Titan Kangodo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    How you can say that something that makes absolute sense and is totally reasonable, is stupid shit is beyond me. Some of them lived for over ten thousand years. 20 years is like yesterday to them.
    That means the battles against the Alliance are like 30 minutes ago to them.
    This does not invalidate my point.

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    I knew that Muru sacrificed himself to reignite the Sunwell and to redeem the Blood Elves, but that he willingly let himself be tortured by them is news to me. Because that doesn't make any sense. Why would he let the Blood Elves force him to aid them, if he could've just actively aided them.
    Because that wouldn't have taught them a lesson. It would have just been them thinking they got even more of a free ride because the Naaru is being all "Woo! My essence for everyone! AWWW YEAH!" and Liadrin would have never had her epiphany.

  19. #179
    Elemental Lord Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    Then it depends on what "his role" means. If his role was to die in order to reignite the Sunwell then that makes sense. If Muru knew right from the beginning his powers were going to be drained by the people he was supposed to help anyway, why didn't he just actively help them. "Hey guys, I know you want to use my power, let's just make this all easier on everyone involved"

    In the case that Muru really willingly let himself be tortured by them, I still think what the Blood Elves did was wrong. Sinply because they didn't know Muru was playing along and accepted his role in the whole thing. They still thought they were bending his will to their plans.
    Because it enhances his inspirational role of self sacrifice, it more or less blew Liadrin away as she realized even though the way he had been treated he still endured. This act of selflessness is one of the most important things for them to get back on track.
    Last edited by Combatbulter; 2012-11-26 at 10:06 PM.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  20. #180
    Warchief TheDangerZone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    Then it depends on what "his role" means. If his role was to die in order to reignite the Sunwell then that makes sense. If Muru knew right from the beginning his powers were going to be drained by the people he was supposed to help anyway, why didn't he just actively help them. "Hey guys, I know you want to use my power, let's just make this all easier on everyone involved"

    In the case that Muru really willingly let himself be tortured by them, I still think what the Blood Elves did was wrong. Simply because they didn't know Muru was playing along and accepted his role in the whole thing. They still thought they were bending his will to their plans.
    But basically you are putting under scrutiny the nature itself of prophecy and fate, and in a universe like warcraft you shouldn't do that. M'uru's fate was written and he just played the part it was assigned to him, how do we know how much sense this made to him? he was a creature millennial old, elves but mayflies to him, a ripe fruit. How do we know what he feels to be reborn as a beacon of light, eternal? maybe he will outlive the blood elves, who at the end are just soldiers for the Army of Light (theres some manipulation in her, but does it matter for the good of the universe?)

    The themes here about life and death and rebirth and eternity are just to great to be affected by what might be considered "practical" to the younger races.

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