(Blood Elf) Revelation about Garithos and three questions

[TheWindWalker]

The biggest lore reason why the Blood Elves would not rejoin the Alliance has always centered around the actions of Garithos and those under his command. His sins have been forcibly passed down to the current Alliance from the Blood Elf perspective but I have three rather important questions:

Garithos was a Grand Marshal of Lordaeron, which is the current capital of the Forsaken and no longer within Alliance control, wouldn't that make the Lordaeron-"descended" Forsaken former members of Garithos' people?

If the Scourge had taken Garithos before his encounter with Sylvanas, wouldn't he have been Forsaken and thus a member of the Horde?

If the above questions would both be true, what justification is there beyond carrying on the same organization's name for the current Alliance to inherit Lordaeron's guilt?

[Thage]

Garithos was a Grand Marshal of Lordaeron, which is the current capital of the Forsaken and no longer within Alliance control, wouldn't that make the Lordaeron-"descended" Forsaken former members of Garithos' people?

The Forsaken offered the blood elves aid, no questions asked (at the time), and seem almost as vocal in their distaste for having been screwed over by the Alliance (from their perspective) as the blood elves. On the other hand, to my knowledge the Alliance never officially distanced itself from Garithos because it's never gotten the full story. All they know is he died when the Forsaken took Lordaeron and somewhere along the line, the blood elves defected after Kael escaped from prison in Dalaran.

If the Scourge had taken Garithos before his encounter with Sylvanas, wouldn't he have been Forsaken and thus a member of the Horde?

He was human at the time of his death. He was mind-controlled by a dreadlord and kept as a slave, and when Sylvanas broke the mind control, he allied with her to take back Capital City.

If the above questions would both be true, what justification is there beyond carrying on the same organization's name for the current Alliance to inherit Lordaeron's guilt?

See above. The Alliance never got the full story, and never officially apologized to the blood elves, or even distanced themselves from what he'd done to them, which lends tacit approval to his actions in the blood elves' eyes. Furthermore, before joining the Horde, the blood elves were in talks with both factions until Darnassian scouts and dwarven saboteurs were found in Eversong, and in Ghostlands, Sentinels held a number of choke points, landing points, and ambush points and attacked the blood elves on sight whereas the Forsaken lent an entire batallion to secure the Ghostlands and break the Scourge presence there. That's what cemented the blood elves' decision to join the Horde.

[Combatbutler]

The Forsaken offered the blood elves aid, no questions asked (at the time), and seem almost as vocal in their distaste for having been screwed over by the Alliance (from their perspective) as the blood elves. On the other hand, to my knowledge the Alliance never officially distanced itself from Garithos because it's never gotten the full story. All they know is he died when the Forsaken took Lordaeron and somewhere along the line, the blood elves defected after Kael escaped from prison in Dalaran.

He was human at the time of his death. He was mind-controlled by a dreadlord and kept as a slave, and when Sylvanas broke the mind control, he allied with her to take back Capital City.

See above. The Alliance never got the full story, and never officially apologized to the blood elves, or even distanced themselves from what he'd done to them, which lends tacit approval to his actions in the blood elves' eyes. Furthermore, before joining the Horde, the blood elves were in talks with both factions until Darnassian scouts and dwarven saboteurs were found in Eversong, and in Ghostlands, Sentinels held a number of choke points, landing points, and ambush points and attacked the blood elves on sight whereas the Forsaken lent an entire batallion to secure the Ghostlands and break the Scourge presence there. That's what cemented the blood elves' decision to join the Horde.

Callei strikes once more.

Though let my add Garithos entire background ;P


Othmar Garithos was the only son of a baron who ruled the lands bordering Quel'Thalas. After growing up in the town of Blackwood, Garithos joined Lordaeron's army as a knight during the Second War. While he was fighting to defend Quel'Thalas, a small band of orcs broke off from the main invading force and put Blackwood to the torch, killing all of its inhabitants. Othmar's family perished trying to defend the lives and homes of their subjects. Garithos blamed the elves for the loss of his home and family, believing that they had diverted troops that could have been used to defend humanity. After the war, Garithos inherited his father's title and continued his service in Lordaeron's military.

By the time of the Third War, Garithos has risen to the rank of Grand Marshal, promoted not necessarily due to his own abilities, but his father's reputation and title. He was the highest-ranking survivor of Lordaeron's military after the Scourge's rampage across Lordaeron, and he recruited what forces he could muster from both volunteers and conscripted civilians. Officials from neighboring non-human states such as Ironforge sent him aid, recognizing him as potentially the last remnant of Lordaeron's government, and certainly the strongest warlord in the area.[5] The healthiest blood elves led by Kael'thas Sunstrider, prince of the ruined Quel'Thalas, also joined his army.[6] Garithos did not enjoy having to work with the blood elves[7] or dwarves,[8] believing that the Alliance's mission should be to preserve humanity above all else[5] and that the Alliance should never have accepted the elves in the first place.

[TheWindWalker]

He was human at the time of his death. He was mind-controlled by a dreadlord and kept as a slave, and when Sylvanas broke the mind control, he allied with her to take back Capital City.

That wasn't the question. What I meant was "If he had died before Sylvanas and he had met and then been risen into the ranks of the scourge couldn't the situation have been different enough that he would have joined her dead Lordaeron veterans rather than been the Uncle Ruckus of the Undead world?"

Why they joined the Horde is rather obvious, so no arguments there. My question was entirely centered around Garithos' mythos among them.

[Thage]

That wasn't the question. What I meant was "If he had died before Sylvanas and he had met and then been risen into the ranks of the scourge couldn't the situation have been different enough that he would have joined her dead Lordaeron veterans rather than been the Uncle Ruckus of the Undead world?"

Why they joined the Horde is rather obvious, so no arguments there. My question was entirely centered around Garithos' mythos among them.

I guess that if he were in the Forsaken, it'd have made a strong argument for Lor'themar to approach the Alliance and go 'Hey guys, let's hammer-and-anvil this joker.'

[Deleted]

The funny thing about Garithos racism towards the Blood Elves is, Blood Elves (or High Elves) and even Night Elves were themselves very arrogant to what they considered the lesser races. Well, typical fantasy elves.

As for your question, I'm not really sure what you mean. Do you mean it's hypocritical of the Blood Elves to join the Horde because some of the Forsaken could possibly be somewhat related to Garithos? As in, "we won't join your human Lordaeron, but we'll go with the undead one"?

[Valenhil]

Bad writing. Kael'thas was leading the elves and then he was all "sob sob the alliance hates me" so he followed the only logical progression and joined his previously mortal enemies to get back at the alliance for the actions of a single general. That was after he joined naga and demons and thought it wasn't enough, despite the fact they want to friggin DESTROY THE WORLD, and goes insane. And all trough this, the blood elves still following him. and apparently after he's dead, Lor'themar stopped to think for a bit and reached the invitable conclusion of "THIS IS ALL THE ALLIANCE'S FAULT, HORDE 4 LYFE". What?

I'd say the writers didn't give any of the horde races, except the Trolls, good reasons to stay with Garrosh's Horde.

Trolls: Joined Thrall when their island sank. Stayed with Garrosh in respect for Thrall's Horde. Rebel against Garrosh for the same reason.
Tauren: Stayed with Thrall due to similar philosophies. Had their leader killed by the new warchief. Demonstrated extreme disapproval of Garrosh's leadership. Still follows Garrosh...because, I guess.
Forsaken: Joined the Horde...well...Why the hell did Thrall ally with them, again?
Blood Elves: Joined the horde to get back at the Alliance, completely ignoring the fact that they had a much stronger grudge against the Horde. could be justified by the new directions Thrall led the Horde to, but this is counterbalanced by the new directions Varian took the Alliance to and thrown out of the window when Garrosh takes over. This is acknowledged in that conversation between Varian and Jaina, where Varian said he was negotiating peace with the blood elves.
Goblins: Simply bullshit. They had goblins ready to be inserted in the horde whenever they ran out of good ideas. Actively fighting in a war goes completely against what every goblin cartel stands for. Proof of that is how the goblins have done absolutely nothing so far, and their leader isn't even in-game.
Pandaren: Horde history is one long ode to bloodshed. Pandarens might have joined Thrall's Horde, but not Garrosh's.

That's not even starting on the fact that apparently factions are this borg hive mind where everyone's opinion is defined by their leader's, with the one exception being the orcs. They have 2 opinions instead. Coincidentally, they had 2 leaders. Huh.

[Netherspark]

It's unlikely that either side even really knows about Garithos's actions that day.

The Alliance believe that the Blood Elves betrayed them, their only knowledge of it though comes from some of Garthos's soliders who probably themselves only knew what Garthos told them. The Blood Elves believe that the Alliance turned against them, but they only know what little Rommath told them when he returned to Silvermoon months after, which was undoubtedly spun to make the Alliance look even worse.

The remaining elves in Quel'thalas wouldn't have known anything until one day they contact the humans and an Alliance representative tells them to get lost.

Blood Elves: Joined the horde to get back at the Alliance, completely ignoring the fact that they had a much stronger grudge against the Horde.

The Blood Elves joined the horde through the Forsaken because they knew they couldn't survive on their own. They never wanted to be there but had no choice.

[Valenhil]

The Blood Elves joined the horde through the Forsaken because they knew they couldn't survive on their own. They never wanted to be there but had no choice.

Maybe they couldn't. What they could have done, though, was rejoin the alliance. But since the whole race was following crazy kael'thas at the time, they thought the alliance hated them. What isn't explained is why Lor'themar still thinks that after he takes over. They went through the both Scourge Campaign and the cataclysm until there was even mention of talks between him and Varian.
They were also apparently doing nothing but twiddling their fingers and playing hide and seek in all the years between Frozen Throne and Burning Crusade.

[Justignoreme]

The funny thing about Garithos racism towards the Blood Elves is, Blood Elves (or High Elves) and even Night Elves were themselves very arrogant to what they considered the lesser races. Well, typical fantasy elves.

What you call arrogance, the Elves call not wanting to inherit the problems and burdens of others. With the Night Elves, it came to a head in Cataclysm, they suffer as a result. They were right to be leery of such things, they are the ones paying for it with their lives with nothing to gain from the broader conflict.
As for the Blood Elves, in BC they joined the Horde for an easy ticket to Outland. Everything else was political powerplaying to legitimize it. Blood Elves wanted to get to Outland to join Kael'thas, they didn't give a crap if they were going with the Orcs or on their own, it was easier to go with the Orcs. They had loyalty issues with the Horde way before Garrosh took over, the quests in Azshara prior to Cata explained this, Blood Elves, loyal to Kael'thas, massively betrayed the Horde and slaughtered a regiment of Orcs whom were there to protect them from the Night Elves while they searched for artifacts.

The Blood Elf highers up, disregard telling you, the player, that the reason the Sentinels are in Quel'thalas was because they knew about Kael'thas' dealings with Illidan and the Naga and it was a cause for alarm. They just wrote it off as "those evil alliance night elves are picking on us for no reason!"

[TheWindWalker]

They were also apparently doing nothing but twiddling their fingers and playing hide and seek in all the years between Frozen Throne and Burning Crusade.

I've got to chime in on this bit. I'm fairly sure that the events of the Blood Elf starting zones are suppose to take place during Vanilla and culminate at the beginning of Burning Crusade. The usually wobbly timeline issues.

[Deleted]

What you call arrogance, the Elves call not wanting to inherit the problems and burdens of others. With the Night Elves, it came to a head in Cataclysm, they suffer as a result. They were right to be leery of such things, they are the ones paying for it with their lives with nothing to gain from the broader conflict.
As for the Blood Elves, in BC they joined the Horde for an easy ticket to Outland. Everything else was political powerplaying to legitimize it. Blood Elves wanted to get to Outland to join Kael'thas, they didn't give a crap if they were going with the Orcs or on their own, it was easier to go with the Orcs. They had loyalty issues with the Horde way before Garrosh took over, the quests in Azshara prior to Cata explained this, Blood Elves, loyal to Kael'thas, massively betrayed the Horde and slaughtered a regiment of Orcs whom were there to protect them from the Night Elves while they searched for artifacts.

The Blood Elf highers up, disregard telling you, the player, that the reason the Sentinels are in Quel'thalas was because they knew about Kael'thas' dealings with Illidan and the Naga and it was a cause for alarm. They just wrote it off as "those evil alliance night elves are picking on us for no reason!"

Ironically it was the Highborne, who were the most arrogant (and they're actually described that way) and who caused the most trouble.

[Valenhil]

I've got to chime in on this bit. I'm fairly sure that the events of the Blood Elf starting zones are suppose to take place during Vanilla and culminate at the beginning of Burning Crusade. The usually wobbly timeline issues.

Maybe it is, maybe it is. But there's 4 whole years between Frozen Throne and Vanilla, and then the unspecified time between vanilla and BC.

[Deleted]

I think it's something along the lines of "Garithos betrayed the Crown-Prince of Quel'thalas!" but then "Kael'thas betrayed Quel'thalas!". I don't think the acknowledgment of both these factors would encourage the Blood Elves to jump into the hands of the Alliance, regardless if they would have them. And from the Alliance perspective, I don't see why they would accept any wrong-doing of Garithos' behaviour, or even necessarily have any first-hand knowledge of it, since Lordorean is in ruins and Stormwind had nothing to do with the Third War. Maybe that might change if Dalaran is rejoining the Alliance, after all the planned execution of Kael happened under their watch.

[TheDangerZone]

I have always wondered how much Kael'thas waged over the inclusion of the Blood elves to the horde. Was it his order? Did he even cared? I always got the impression that the Silvermoon regency did all the paperwork and networking with Sylvanas by themselves, I got the impression that Kael was a non entity in this deal, trully, the silvermoon blood elves had no idea what was going beyond the dark portal beyond the "Outlad awaits" invitation.

Back to Garithos, even if it was by default, he was talking in stead of the alliance, he was the highest ranking member left in the Lordaeron, it was the only reason why the Ironforge dwarves obeyed him. With little input form the other human kindgdoms due to the destroyed infrastructures, he had free reign to reign the remnants of the alliance as he pleased. After his campaign of retaiking Lordaeron form the scorge failed, Stormwind had no other choice to take the place as head of the Alliance to mantain structure. Maybe even if Garithos had survived, even succeeded in retaking some portions, he would still have to step down to give way to a more stable goverment.

Either way, I don't think that Garithos actions per se are what "drove" the Blood elves to the horde. It is a great part, but I have always thought that there's a lot of resentment about how the rest of the alliance present "let" Garithos get away with it. Sure, he gave the orders, but everyone else followed suit knowing what was happening; in this case "there were our orders" might not pass the cut.

[Deleted]

Maybe you didn't play the game or anything, but in the last four years I remember killing tons of alliance-members and getting killed a couple of hundred times.
You say this as if it's so easy to switch sides after you've been enemies for years.

Do you really think they would forget all those times they fought against each other?

And yet the orcs killed High Elves during the second war, when they attacked Silvermoon. It didn't seem to be a problem to join the Horde.

[Deleted]

But the second war was 20 years before they joined the Horde
And even after 20 years they still aren't best friends, so you can imagine what happens with only a few years between it.

20 years are nothing for Elves.

[Verdugo]

20 years are nothing for Elves.

Here we go with stupid shit that 20 years are 20 minutes for long-lived race. They feel time same way as anyone else, they just live longer.

[Deleted]

Here we go with stupid shit that 20 years are 20 minutes for long-lived race. They feel time same way as anyone else, they just live longer.

How you can say that something that makes absolute sense and is totally reasonable, is stupid shit is beyond me. Some of them lived for over ten thousand years. 20 years is like yesterday to them. You say they feel the same way as anyone else, but if you have a lifespan like that, if your childhood was thousands of years in the past, you do not feel like everyone else. You feel differently. And you want a good example? Look at the Highborne and the Night Elves. It's been ten thousand years since the Highborne caused the Sundering and the Night Elves have just accepted them back. Some of the Night Elves, like Maiev, still can't forgive them.

But even if we disregard the fact that they're a long-lived race - look at the humans and the orcs. It's been the same 20 years for them too, they still can't stop fighting each other and they never will.

[Verdugo]

Look at the Highborne and the Night Elves. It's been ten thousand years since the Highborne caused the Sundering and the Night Elves have just accepted them back. Some of the Night Elves, like Maiev, still can't forgive them.

That has more to do with superstition and xenophobia than bullshit time theory.

The only reason why Belfs joined horde was because while Forsaken sent aid, alliance sent sabouters and spies. Who would you join.