1. #1

    (PVE) Disc help needed

    Hi there, our guild is currently struggling to make progress with our healing core. We can't seem to find the issue so we're
    hoping that the forums would be able to.
    Any logs from NOV 14th on would be best, as that's when our healing core is together as one was on vacation.
    I'll be making an individual post in each class forum for each one, so if you have knowledge of another class feel free to help out!
    Any advice and/or opinions and are extremely appreciated. Just want our raiders to play to their full potential.

    Thank you very much for your time!!

    If having issues with the links, our guild is Insomnia on the Kel'thuzad server. And our Priest is Joex

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/guilds/206342/ Logs

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Joex/advanced Armory
    Last edited by Mbwiru; 2012-11-25 at 09:01 PM.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Mbwiru View Post
    Hi there, our guild is currently struggling to make progress with our healing core. We can't seem to find the issue so we're
    hoping that the forums would be able to.
    Any logs from NOV 14th on would be best, as that's when our healing core is together as one was on vacation.
    I'll be making an individual post in each class forum for each one, so if you have knowledge of another class feel free to help out!
    Any advice and/or opinions and are extremely appreciated. Just want our raiders to play to their full potential.

    Thank you very much for your time!!

    If having issues with the links, our guild is Insomnia on the Kel'thuzad server. And our Priest is Joex

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/guilds/206342/ Logs

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Joex/advanced Armory
    Well, First thing I noticed, is that all 3 of your healers are doing MASSIVE amounts of overhealing, wasting up to 40-50% of their healing. As far as the priest goes, Over half his prayer of healing was overhealed on most of the fights, meaning there was likely only 1 or 2 players that could be healed when he did so, I'm not sure if your raid is setup to use assigned healing based on groups. It doesnt appear so by the fact that you had all 3 healers, 1 tank and one ranged in the same group. Prayer of healing will only heal the players in the same group as the target so you ideally want to base your groups around that, and both pali's and shamans do a solid amount of self healing while they do so, so they should be in a group together.

    Another thing is he appears to have no idea how to use rapture, he used Power Word Shield once on your longest garalon attempt (this fight is incredibly easy to get procs on as there's such constant damage), and 8 times on the entire feng kill (once actually didnt proc) This ability has an internal cooldown of 12 seconds and should be used as often as possible, once the priest breaks approx 9k spirit, this actually starts returning mana rather than just being a cheap absorb. When timed with your shaman's Mana Tide Totem and an on use trinket this can make for some impressively quick mana returns.

    The shaman needs to work on uptimes, he only had Earth Shield up for about 60% of the fight most cases I looked at. And riptide/Tidalwaves was pretty low as well. Managing this and keeping 2 stacks up as much as possible greatly increases your throughput as a shaman.

    Talking to a friend the holy pali is doing quite a strange numbers as far as top heals goes but I don't know enough about pali healing to go into a lot of detail. One thing he mentioned specifically is he wasnt using his Mana cd at all.
    Last edited by Nestar; 2012-11-25 at 09:50 PM.

  3. #3
    Thanks for the reply!

    Yea we can adjust groups for sure, that makes much sense, we normally don't separate them. I'm curious, what do you mean for rapture? I don't play a priest myself
    so I don't fully understand the mechanic. How many Power word shields on average should he be having a fight? I know it depends but i guess a rough idea, you seem to know what you're doing rather well haha. Spoke to the shaman and that's an easy fix, thanks for noticing that.

    And sorry what do you mean by strange numbers? oh alright

    Thanks very much for the reply. Any extra throw-ins are appreciated to haha : P

  4. #4
    The priest does look low on Rapture gains on a few fights I looked at. I wouldn't draw conclusions from Garalon about that, as he may be trying to save PW:S for Body and Soul for the kiters, but on other fights his gains look a lot lower than I'd expect. This is a pretty minor issue, though. Overall, he looks good on output and cooldown use.

    One other weird thing I noticed is that he tends to not use Penance to stack Evangelism. He uses Evangelism/Archangel fine, but just with Smite/Holy Fire and not Penance. And he doesn't use Penance very often for healing, so it's not like he's saving it. Given that Penance is the best HPS way to stack Evangelism, it seems like he should probably be using it more often. Again, though, this is a really minor thing and overall the guy looks pretty good.

    EDIT - And in regard to Rapture, it's a disc priest mechanic that returns mana when Power Word: Shield is absorbed. When it procs it makes PW:S effectively free or, with gear, slightly mana positive. It can occur once every twelve seconds. Because it's effectively a free PW:S, it generally makes sense to try to get as many Rapture procs as possible. I don't think many players get procs every twelve seconds exactly, but procs every 20-25 seconds are doable. From the logs I looked at it looks like your priest gets them like once every 30-45 seconds, which is on the high side.
    Last edited by Maleric; 2012-11-25 at 11:38 PM.

  5. #5
    Rapture is a priest passive ability that returns 200% of the casters current spirit as mana when a power word shield is completely absorbed. This is on a 12 second cooldown. So on a perfect run with a continuous stream of incoming damage you can get them very close together. Pws without rapture is a fairly expensive heal so this should be used properly. when timed with a shaman mana tide totem. It can restore over 80k mana depending on the spirit of the two of them.
    Last edited by Nestar; 2012-11-25 at 11:44 PM.

  6. #6
    Garalon

    Drop a tank, get your pally to soak & heal tank + himself + pheramone targets. If you want to stick with two tanks, then assign someone to heal them & the pheramone targets. You should have two healers raid healing all the time (I would advise the priest & the shaman), and one healer needs to always be in range of pheramone kiter + boss cleave soakers (priest is probably the worse at this, don't assign him to it, pally is best). No point mentioning any specifics because the attempts are too short. Holy is good on this fight, especially if your group has a tendency to spread out.

    Put soakers + pheramone kiters in one group, and everyone else in the other. Everyone should stay in middle circle when not soaking/kiting, this will help his PoH hit more people. PoH range is 30 yards, you need to start organising your groups & where people stand around this, the disc should carry your healing on most boss fights in HoF.

    --

    Just some notes from your Blade Lord kill..

    - He uses Spirit Shell 4 times. It has a 1 min CD & should be used on every Unseen Strike, so he should of used it around 7 times. Even when he does use it, he uses it on max 5 targets, why even bother? He should stack it on the whole raid.
    - He uses AA twice when it has a 30 second cooldown which results in a 7.5% uptime, when it should be near 60% (used mostly on CD)
    - He stacks up Evangelism at the start then doesn't even use it on AA
    - Stop using heal & greater heal so much, you're better off using atonement for single target healing
    - He used Inner Focus 4 times when it has a 45 second cooldown. If you forget to use it that much then macro it to your PoH/GHeal at least.
    - He is in Inner Will??? Use Inner Fire

    You basically work this fight in a cycle... Unseen Strike in 20 secs, start stacking Spirit Shell with AA up. Unseen Strike over, smite/holyfire/penance on CD on the boss to stack Evangelism, keep rapture on CD. Repeat.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Mbwiru View Post
    Hi there, our guild is currently struggling to make progress with our healing core. We can't seem to find the issue so we're
    hoping that the forums would be able to.
    Any logs from NOV 14th on would be best, as that's when our healing core is together as one was on vacation.
    I'll be making an individual post in each class forum for each one, so if you have knowledge of another class feel free to help out!
    Any advice and/or opinions and are extremely appreciated. Just want our raiders to play to their full potential.

    Thank you very much for your time!!

    If having issues with the links, our guild is Insomnia on the Kel'thuzad server. And our Priest is Joex

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/guilds/206342/ Logs

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Joex/advanced Armory

    On garalon, you shuld be using spirit shell and cascade on cooldown really.

    Spirit shell on that fight is OP beyond reason and will honestly save your healers from having to heal a lot.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-26 at 10:26 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by HolyLathusDisc View Post
    On garalon, you shuld be using spirit shell and cascade on cooldown really.

    Spirit shell on that fight is OP beyond reason and will honestly save your healers from having to heal a lot.
    you also are doing 0 atonment healing, which means you arent stacking envengalism for archangel to get 25% more healing done. If anything, smite/holy fire/penance the boss only to get 5 stacks for more aoe burst, time it with spirit shell and watch the numbers fly

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-26 at 10:30 PM ----------

    on your best garalon attempt, you only got 20k mana from rapture??

    Get a rapture tracking cooldown and you should really REALLY practice using PW:S for rapture any chance you can.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-26 at 10:31 PM ----------

    you only inner focused 4 times on a 2 minute fight, with the amount you cast greater healing on your logs that spell should have had at LEAST 10-20 uses.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-26 at 10:41 PM ----------

    Here is a log from me tank healing on spirit kings 10 man normal mode, look at how much mana I got back from rapture, almost 2 full mana pools over the course of almost a 10 minute fight. If you know how to time it using addons it's an INCREDIBLE source of regen, which will probably help you the most because I can't imagine how fast you are going oom with your choice of spells.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-26 at 10:42 PM ----------

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...=12403&e=13045

    Also notice my shadow fiend, I pop my shadowfiend early in the fight so its available again later on.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-26 at 10:50 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Halaberiel View Post
    Garalon

    Drop a tank, get your pally to soak & heal tank + himself + pheramone targets. If you want to stick with two tanks, then assign someone to heal them & the pheramone targets. You should have two healers raid healing all the time (I would advise the priest & the shaman), and one healer needs to always be in range of pheramone kiter + boss cleave soakers (priest is probably the worse at this, don't assign him to it, pally is best). No point mentioning any specifics because the attempts are too short. Holy is good on this fight, especially if your group has a tendency to spread out.

    Put soakers + pheramone kiters in one group, and everyone else in the other. Everyone should stay in middle circle when not soaking/kiting, this will help his PoH hit more people. PoH range is 30 yards, you need to start organising your groups & where people stand around this, the disc should carry your healing on most boss fights in HoF.

    --

    Just some notes from your Blade Lord kill..

    - He uses Spirit Shell 4 times. It has a 1 min CD & should be used on every Unseen Strike, so he should of used it around 7 times. Even when he does use it, he uses it on max 5 targets, why even bother? He should stack it on the whole raid.
    - He uses AA twice when it has a 30 second cooldown which results in a 7.5% uptime, when it should be near 60% (used mostly on CD)
    - He stacks up Evangelism at the start then doesn't even use it on AA
    - Stop using heal & greater heal so much, you're better off using atonement for single target healing
    - He used Inner Focus 4 times when it has a 45 second cooldown. If you forget to use it that much then macro it to your PoH/GHeal at least.
    - He is in Inner Will??? Use Inner Fire

    You basically work this fight in a cycle... Unseen Strike in 20 secs, start stacking Spirit Shell with AA up. Unseen Strike over, smite/holyfire/penance on CD on the boss to stack Evangelism, keep rapture on CD. Repeat.
    Why would he rely on atonment for single target healing.

    Greater heal does the following: Bigger heal then atonment, reduces CD on inner focus, if it crits oh snap thats a big absorption shield.

    Telling someone to rely on atonment for single target healing is like, asking for CoH to only hit the people you want it to hit. It's a smart heal, you can't really choose what atonment hits unless you know FOR CERTAIN ONLY ONE PERSON IS TAKING DAMAGE. The heal will always go to the person who needs it the most, and UNTIL 5.1, only within a 15 yard range. Hardly relyable for single target healing right now. 5.1 will be a different story.

    5.2 Disc Priest Guide | Retired(Playing Aion)

  8. #8
    Your priest needs to work on utilizing Spirit Shell more. On nearly every fight there is predictable raid wide damage that a disc priest can almost completely absorb by stacking Spirit Shell on the raid before it happens. All healers, especially disc priests because of Spirit Shell, will benefit immensely by learning the damage pattern of the fights. Most fights are more or less scripted. Your healers should know exactly when they are going to have to heal things, instead of being surprised by a ton of damage every time it happens.

    Have your priest macro Spirit Shell and Archangel together. Also have him/her use Penance as an offensive spell on the boss, and use it on CD. Using Holy Fire and Penance on CD will allow you to have Archangel every time it's up. You'll see your priest do ~20k DPS just by using Penance and Holy Fire on CD.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by HolyLathusDisc View Post
    Why would he rely on atonment for single target healing.

    Greater heal does the following: Bigger heal then atonment, reduces CD on inner focus, if it crits oh snap thats a big absorption shield.

    Telling someone to rely on atonment for single target healing is like, asking for CoH to only hit the people you want it to hit. It's a smart heal, you can't really choose what atonment hits unless you know FOR CERTAIN ONLY ONE PERSON IS TAKING DAMAGE. The heal will always go to the person who needs it the most, and UNTIL 5.1, only within a 15 yard range. Hardly relyable for single target healing right now. 5.1 will be a different story.
    Greater heal doesn't damage the boss? Tank healing requirements on Blade Lord are low? Raid damage in general outside of Unseen Strike are low? Atonement healing is way more mana efficient? Do I need to go on? I don't even need to use greater heal on the HC version of this fight...

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Halaberiel View Post
    Greater heal doesn't damage the boss? Tank healing requirements on Blade Lord are low? Raid damage in general outside of Unseen Strike are low? Atonement healing is way more mana efficient? Do I need to go on? I don't even need to use greater heal on the HC version of this fight...

    You don't even know what I was saying. I was saying you can't rely 100% on atonement for single target healing. There are too many cases where the atonement heal will go to someone other then who you wanted.

    Thus you are better off relying on greater heal and for THE MOST part using atonement more for archangel.
    However. Now that 5.1 is out and there's a 40 yard range on atonement it changes the name of the game for disc a lot.

    5.2 Disc Priest Guide | Retired(Playing Aion)

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by HolyLathusDisc View Post
    You don't even know what I was saying. I was saying you can't rely 100% on atonement for single target healing. There are too many cases where the atonement heal will go to someone other then who you wanted.

    Thus you are better off relying on greater heal and for THE MOST part using atonement more for archangel.
    However. Now that 5.1 is out and there's a 40 yard range on atonement it changes the name of the game for disc a lot.
    No, you took a comment regarding a specific fight & extrapolated it to be a general statement, which it was not. There are no cases where it will go to who you do not want, because there are only two people taking damage: the Wind Step target & the tank. You will assign the other healer to the wind step target since you'll be spamming PoH half of your time.


    That being said, using atonement as your primary method of healing does work for a great deal of fights. In fact I can't even think of any fights where I use greater heal in large amounts, Stoneguard & Emps would be two examples but I'm holy on both those fights. Feng you may need to use it a few times, but atonement is often enough. Gara'jal smite is king if you're 3 healing, flash heal otherwise + PoH. Spirit Kings you won't use outside of Meng Crazed. Elegon you won't ever use. Vizier is all just AOE. Blade Lord as I mentioned before. Garalon you'll use if you're assigned to healing the tanks + pheramone targets, otherwise you will not. Wind Lord, again outside of occasional huge burst tank damage it is not required, better to just DPS - plus in P2 smite will do more healing than GHeal anyway. Amber-shaper, only on debuff target if req. Empress you need somewhat in P2 at the start, but afterwards smite is fine. You use occasionally on Sha of Fear, although most of your single target will come from atonement.

    You use atonement to heal the tank, you use PoH to heal the raid. For the most part I assign the groups & set up positioning so everyone is hit by one of those two spells at least. Sure atonement hits pets sometimes, but if the tank actually needs healing it will not.

    In many ways this change will weaken the effectiveness of atonement. Before I could rely on it to heal the tank, now I cannot. If I'm on Elegon & the add just died, I don't want atonement healing some 20% HP raid member, because I know they won't take damage till a new add spawns at the earliest. However, I do know the tank can drop HP very very fast on this fight, and if he's 25%, or even 50% he's way way higher priority healing wise. Consequentially my partner will have to be more on the ball with regards to the tanks HP, not a problem if you're with a Paladin or Shaman, more so if you're with a Druid or Monk.
    Last edited by Halaberiel; 2012-11-27 at 03:34 PM.

  12. #12
    Don't forget grace isn't applied from atonment, so if you are going to be using mainly atonment then penance should be your grace stacker on whoever you expect atonment to heal.

    And to Halaberiel, I will repeat myself.


    I was not talking about two fights specifically, I was stating that IN GENERAL you shouldn't rely on atonment for your main single target heal.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-27 at 03:39 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Halaberiel View Post
    No, you took a comment regarding a specific fight & extrapolated it to be a general statement, which it was not. There are no cases where it will go to who you do not want, because there are only two people taking damage: the Wind Step target & the tank. You will assign the other healer to the wind step target since you'll be spamming PoH half of your time.


    That being said, using atonement as your primary method of healing does work for a great deal of fights. In fact I can't even think of any fights where I use greater heal in large amounts, Stoneguard & Emps would be two examples but I'm holy on both those fights. Feng you may need to use it a few times, but atonement is often enough. Gara'jal smite is king if you're 3 healing, flash heal otherwise + PoH. Spirit Kings you won't use outside of Meng Crazed. Elegon you won't ever use. Vizier is all just AOE. Blade Lord as I mentioned before. Garalon you'll use if you're assigned to healing the tanks + pheramone targets, otherwise you will not. Wind Lord, again outside of occasional huge burst tank damage it is not required, better to just DPS - plus in P2 smite will do more healing than GHeal anyway. Amber-shaper, only on debuff target if req. Empress you need somewhat in P2 at the start, but afterwards smite is fine. You use occasionally on Sha of Fear, although most of your single target will come from atonement.

    You use atonement to heal the tank, you use PoH to heal the raid. For the most part I assign the groups & set up positioning so everyone is hit by one of those two spells at least. Sure atonement hits pets sometimes, but if the tank actually needs healing it will not.

    In many ways this change will weaken the effectiveness of atonement. Before I could rely on it to heal the tank, now I cannot. If I'm on Elegon & the add just died, I don't want atonement healing some 20% HP raid member, because I know they won't take damage till a new add spawns at the earliest. However, I do know the tank can drop HP very very fast on this fight, and if he's 25%, or even 50% he's way way higher priority healing wise. Consequentially my partner will have to be more on the ball with regards to the tanks HP, not a problem if you're with a Paladin or Shaman, more so if you're with a Druid or Monk.

    Oh my, flash healing on gara? I can't imagine why you wouldn't be binding healing esp if you are 1: In shadow realm 2: have totem debuff

    Granted I haven't done heroic so I can't say what the extra mechanic is on that fight, but I don't see it being just reason to cast flash heal over binding heal.


    I will repeat, ESP now that 5.1 is out and atonment is 40 yards, you CANNOT rely on atonment being your primary tank heal. There are TOO MANY CHANCES OF YOUR HEAL GETTING SNIPED BY AN AOE DAMAGE and your tank getting smacked hard without you being able to react to it fast enough. It's almost considered a RNG at this point.

    If thats your playstyle and it works, so be it. However I would not tell anyone that play style for a primary use.

    Greater heal = grace + big bubble crits + reduced cooldown on inner focus for even more crit awsomeness. Again, if it works for you fair enough, but I still won't agree.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-27 at 03:39 PM ----------

    I WILL however add this.

    Atonment + Surge of light = some serious OP procage.

    5.2 Disc Priest Guide | Retired(Playing Aion)

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by HolyLathusDisc View Post
    Don't forget grace isn't applied from atonment, so if you are going to be using mainly atonment then penance should be your grace stacker on whoever you expect atonment to heal.

    And to Halaberiel, I will repeat myself.


    I was not talking about two fights specifically, I was stating that IN GENERAL you shouldn't rely on atonment for your main single target heal.
    Meh I usually use penance on the boss, tank healing really isn't a big deal on most fights. If you can keep them up with atonement alone then grace is not required imo. It probably isn't a bad idea to keep it on the tank though you're right, bigger shields then too.

    I know you weren't, but you quoted me to dispute my point regarding healing on a specific fight, otherwise why would you quote me?!?! Anyway I find atonement fine for single target healing in most cases (there's your general statement!).

  14. #14
    Yea but specifically talking about the fights you were, if you are atonment healing the tanks then you need to keep grace up more then anything just because atonment wont do that for you. So weaving a penance tank > boss > tank > boss ect should keep it on the tank as well as healing the tank regardless.

    Sure grace may not feel "required" however, grace + archangel = [EDIT]55% more healing on the tank period, and one penance on the tank vs the boss every other cast isn't going to... really affect the raids DPS at all.

    5.2 Disc Priest Guide | Retired(Playing Aion)

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by HolyLathusDisc View Post
    Oh my, flash healing on gara? I can't imagine why you wouldn't be binding healing esp if you are 1: In shadow realm 2: have totem debuff

    Granted I haven't done heroic so I can't say what the extra mechanic is on that fight, but I don't see it being just reason to cast flash heal over binding heal.


    I will repeat, ESP now that 5.1 is out and atonment is 40 yards, you CANNOT rely on atonment being your primary tank heal. There are TOO MANY CHANCES OF YOUR HEAL GETTING SNIPED BY AN AOE DAMAGE and your tank getting smacked hard without you being able to react to it fast enough. It's almost considered a RNG at this point.

    If thats your playstyle and it works, so be it. However I would not tell anyone that play style for a primary use.

    Greater heal = grace + big bubble crits + reduced cooldown on inner focus for even more crit awsomeness. Again, if it works for you fair enough, but I still won't agree.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-27 at 03:39 PM ----------

    I WILL however add this.

    Atonment + Surge of light = some serious OP procage.
    Yes binding heal is good, you use it in the spirit realm till you're topped off, then flash heal the targets. Outside of the spirit realm I mostly spam PoH + Shields + flash if anyone is about to die.

    We'll have to see if my healing style changes. I can see it being problematic on Elegon because tank damage is high on that fight, but you won't stop smiting, the other healer will just have to be more on the ball. For most other fights I don't see the tank damage being high enough for it to be a huge issue. But sure if you're just healing the tanks atonement won't be reliable after 5.1. The thing is you don't really have dedicated tank healers any more on most fights. Elegon as I said requires a great deal of tank healing, as does Emps & Stoneguard, but the others? Even now you naturally switch to greater heal if there is large tank healing (outside of Elegon) because atonement is less throughput - but notice how many fights I do that on!

    Quote Originally Posted by HolyLathusDisc View Post
    Yea but specifically talking about the fights you were, if you are atonment healing the tanks then you need to keep grace up more then anything just because atonment wont do that for you. So weaving a penance tank > boss > tank > boss ect should keep it on the tank as well as healing the tank regardless.

    Sure grace may not feel "required" however, grace + archangel = [EDIT]55% more healing on the tank period, and one penance on the tank vs the boss every other cast isn't going to... really affect the raids DPS at all.
    I don't know, if atonement is keeping up the targets you need it to, with absolutely no chance of any tanks dying what-so-ever, then why would you feel the need to stack grace? What is the point? Higher healing that already mostly goes into over heal even without grace?

  16. #16
    Just remember atonment being 40 yards now, meaning if any aoe damage is happening then your atonment heal on the tank has a VERY HIGH chance of being moved to other people.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-27 at 04:06 PM ----------

    Because atonment crits still give a divine aegis bubble. 55% bigger bubble = 55% more healing and damage absorbed.

    5.2 Disc Priest Guide | Retired(Playing Aion)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •