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  1. #1

    question on frost dw rotation... is this masterfrost or not?

    I read on the EJ guide that you should include DnD in your single target rotation. The reason given was that you wanted to have an UH rune on CD some of the time. I wondered if this was only for masterfrost. I prefer not to do masterfrost. Is this just for masterfrost or is this now for the formerly obliterate heavy rotation (like cata).

    If this UH rune usage thing is in the non masterfrost rotation do you think you could just explain how it goes a little bit?

  2. #2
    It is for just masterfrost I believe. But DnD will do the most damage per unholy rune if you're target is on it for 10 seconds. If not plague strike will suffice. Also, if there is more than 1 target DnD will really be better. If you don't like masterfrost, then I am very unsure about how hastefrost burns unholy runes, probably through focusing on OB.

  3. #3
    Yes this is a masterfrost rotation, which is the primary, if not only, build for DW frost due to the extra Frost Strike damage given by Threat of Thassarian. If you want to run the old haste, Oblit heavy build, you'd be much better off going 2hd for the increased Oblit damage from Might of the Frozen Wastes.

    For the 2hd, Oblit heavy build, unholy runes are used for Oblits or Plague Strike to keep up Blood Plague. For DW, you want to keep 1 unholy rune on CD so that you always activate a frost or death rune from procs for more Howling Blasts. This is done by using DnD or Oblit (when there is no KM proc as those should be used for Frost Strikes as DW).

    I hope this answers your questions.

  4. #4
    Might be worth noting you only game runes if your still running RE. With BT build you put everything on CD since your refreshing any rune as a Death rune which can be spent on HB regardless.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Kronik85 View Post
    Might be worth noting you only game runes if your still running RE. With BT build you put everything on CD since your refreshing any rune as a Death rune which can be spent on HB regardless.
    Does this apply to DW masterfrost or 2h hastefrost or both?

    What should I run for 2h?

    edit: what does gaming runes mean? I did mutliple google searches to no avail.
    Last edited by SteelBalls; 2012-11-26 at 03:36 AM.

  6. #6
    That applies to masterfrost, and I suppose 2h if you're using BT but I don't believe BT is the best 2h choice - could be wrong there.


    Gaming runes means that you want to keep 1 UH rune on CD so it's more likely to proc a frost or death rune when you use RE.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by SteelBalls View Post
    Does this apply to DW masterfrost or 2h hastefrost or both?

    What should I run for 2h?
    It's universal when using BT, maybe explaining the mechanics might clarify. The reason you game runes as RE is because refreshing an Unholy rune is sub optimal, you want to spam HB right? So you need a Death rune or a Frost rune so we stack the deck in favour of us getting one. By leaving one Unholy rune charged we remove the chance to recharge an Unholy rune with RE because RE can't refresh a rune that is already charging.

    Blood Tap is exactly the same, it won't refresh a rune that's recharging. However BT refreshes any rune as Death rune so we don't have to worry about wasting BT charges at all because it will always net you a rune you can use to HB. It's also why BT contrary to popular belief isn't hard to manage at all, you just use it and it should net you some extra DPS over RE as well as opening up a few tricks that could net you even more DPS.

    As to which option you should go with then that's up to you. BT should net you some extra DPS providing you don't waste any charges, BT could then net you a little more DPS once you start micromanaging it alongside your runes to eek out a few more procs onto UH runes. If you don't think you can do that, just cant be arsed or heaven forbid make a choice based on what you actually feel comfortable with or like to play then go with RE.

    Being dead is usually a pretty substantial DPS loss, standing in the fire or failing to do your job because your too busy focusing on BT is detrimental to your raid. Just thought I'd point this out since it often gets lost in anything related to theorycrafting.

  8. #8
    @Regen, With regard to BT being worse for 2h, please read the last two posts on this page (curious what you guys think): http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/5724315405
    Last edited by SteelBalls; 2012-11-26 at 03:46 AM.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by SteelBalls View Post
    @Regen, With regard to BT being worse for 2h, please read the last two posts on this page (curious what you guys think): http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/5724315405
    This is where you have to use your nonce as a player and apply the theorycraft alongside your own experience. BT should sim better at your gear level, ignore the BiS simcraft profile because it isn't relevant to you. So what does this mean for you? Well you mess about with BT, try some LFR or a good session on a dummy, ignore the parse data unless your fully raid buffed or the data is amazingly consistent but instead try to gauge how often you were rune locked.

    What is the purpose of BT/RE/RC? It's to help alleviate rune locking. If you haven't played a DK from 3.0 then you might not understand that the core of DK DPS is spending runes. Being a DK in WotLK was like using a machine gun, we didn't have free GCD's but when Cata came this changed and we slowed down. What you aim to do now is to get back to this.

    So the answer to which is better is going to depend on you, go with the option that makes you feel the busiest.

  10. #10
    I'm curious about how to do the masterfrost rotation optimally. It simmed about 3k dps higher than 2h frost for me. Also 2h frost simmed slightly lower than UH for me. Can anyone point me to a good guide on how to do the mop dw "masterfrost" rotation? I've searched google for something recent and could only find stuff that applies to before mop hit and thus doesnt' take into account soul reaper.

  11. #11
    http://elitistjerks.com/f72/t130617-...ld_hand_death/

    Quote Originally Posted by EJ Single Target DW Priority
    Soul Reaper when target below 35%
    Diseases
    Frost Strike if Killing Machine is procced
    Death and Decay
    Obliterate when Killing Machine is procced and both diseases are on the target and both Unholy Runes are off cooldown
    Frost Strike if RP capped
    Howling Blast if Rime procced
    Obliterate when both diseases are on the target and both Unholy Runes are off cooldown
    Frost Strike
    Howling Blast
    Horn of Winter
    Quote Originally Posted by EJ Multiple Target Priority
    Diseases
    Howling Blast if both Frost runes and/or both Death runes are up
    Death and Decay if both Unholy Runes are up
    Frost Strike if RP capped
    Obliterate if both Unholy Runes are up
    Howling Blast
    Death and Decay
    Frost Strike
    Horn of Winter

  12. #12
    DW: Don't use DnD on single target and use BT instead of RE for better dps. You can macro BT to your frost strike or whatever if you keep forgetting to actually use it, tho it's a slight dps loss versus doing it manually at correct times.

  13. #13
    This is the priority listed in simulationcraft currently:

    Code:
    actions+=/plague_leech,if=talent.plague_leech.enabled&(dot.blood_plague.remains<3|dot.frost_fever.remains<3)
    actions+=/outbreak,if=dot.frost_fever.remains<3|dot.blood_plague.remains<3
    actions+=/soul_reaper,if=target.health.pct<=35|((target.health.pct-3*(target.health.pct%target.time_to_die))<=35)
    actions+=/howling_blast,if=!dot.frost_fever.ticking
    actions+=/plague_strike,if=!dot.blood_plague.ticking
    actions+=/frost_strike,if=buff.killing_machine.react
    actions+=/howling_blast,if=buff.rime.react
    actions+=/frost_strike,if=runic_power>76
    actions+=/obliterate,if=buff.killing_machine.react|unholy=2
    actions+=/howling_blast,if=frost=2|death=2
    actions+=/obliterate,if=unholy>=1
    actions+=/howling_blast
    actions+=/blood_tap,if=talent.blood_tap.enabled
    actions+=/death_and_decay
    actions+=/horn_of_winter
    actions+=/frost_strike
    actions+=/plague_leech,if=talent.plague_leech.enabled
    actions+=/empower_rune_weapon
    (Note: I took out some lines that were for PoF/ERW with trinkets/potion, and unholy blight)

    And the following is my understanding of it:

    1. Plague Leech if there are less than 3 sec on either Blood Plague or Frost Fever. In practice this becomes a matter of keeping an eye on Blood Plague since we're constantly refreshing Frost Fever.

    2. Outbreak if it's off CD and diseases need to be refreshed.

    3. Soul Reaper sub 35%

    4. Howling Blast/Plague Strike to make sure diseases are up.

    5. Frost Strike with KM up

    6. Howling Blast with rime (freezing fog) proc

    7. Frost Strike when 76 RP or higher (to avoid capping)

    8. Obliterate IF KM procs and you don't have RP for Frost Strike OR if you have 2 unholy runes.

    9. Howling Blast if you have 2 frost or 2 death runes.

    10. Obliterate when there's atleast 1 unholy rune (not death).

    11. Blood tap. This is when you have no runes for any of the above spells (HB, Obliterate), you're under 76 RP, but you don't want to Frost Strike because you don't have a KM proc. If you've done the rotation correctly up to this point, in my experience you should be turning a used up unholy rune into a death rune.

    12. Death and Decay if you have no other options, and have that one pesky unholy rune. This rarely happens and I don't think I've run into a situation where I've had to DnD single target on a boss.

    13. Horn of Winter to get RP.

    14. Frost Strike with no KM procs.

    15. Plague Leech if you have absolutely no resources.

    16. ERW if none of the above are available, though I personally just wait a sec to get a rune and save ERW for Trinkets/Potion.

    Might seem like a lot to process but once you get on a dummy and practice a bit it gets easier.

    Basically the tl;dr is with diseases up, Frost Strike with KM is your highest priority (other than soul reaper sub 35%), and you use Obliterate to get rid of unholy runes or use a KM proc when you don't have the RP for Frost Strike. Other than that Howling Blast, use Blood Tap when you have no runes up, and Plague Leech as diseases are falling off for a free rune. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Noxia View Post
    DW: Don't use DnD on single target and use BT instead of RE for better dps. You can macro BT to your frost strike or whatever if you keep forgetting to actually use it, tho it's a slight dps loss versus doing it manually at correct times.
    DnD is the best damage/rune option to burn an unholy rune (using the saved frost rune on HB).

    And BT is only better than RE if you use it perfectly. If you use it improperly its worse. So to a person just beginning DW, RE might be better.

  15. #15
    To be more explicit, BT is only superior to RE if you micromanage it. If you would macro BT in with frost strike (as I personally absolutely would) you're better off using RE.

    Micromanaging additional keybinds like blood tap, plague leech, etc, in a raid where you can't DPS-tunnel only helps your performance if you're an amazing player who rarely makes mistakes. Those people absolutely exist, but there aren't many of them-- and I'm sufficiently self-aware to know I don't fit that description.
    Last edited by Schizoide; 2012-11-26 at 06:43 PM.

  16. #16
    I personally find DW Frost unplayable w/o BT.

  17. #17
    DW frost is easier to play with macroed BT because you don't have to leave an unholy rune up, but I don't find that level of micromanagement onerous. YMMV as always.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Lyon View Post
    This is the priority listed in simulationcraft currently:

    Code:
    actions+=/plague_leech,if=talent.plague_leech.enabled&(dot.blood_plague.remains<3|dot.frost_fever.remains<3)
    actions+=/outbreak,if=dot.frost_fever.remains<3|dot.blood_plague.remains<3
    actions+=/soul_reaper,if=target.health.pct<=35|((target.health.pct-3*(target.health.pct%target.time_to_die))<=35)
    actions+=/howling_blast,if=!dot.frost_fever.ticking
    actions+=/plague_strike,if=!dot.blood_plague.ticking
    actions+=/frost_strike,if=buff.killing_machine.react
    actions+=/howling_blast,if=buff.rime.react
    actions+=/frost_strike,if=runic_power>76
    actions+=/obliterate,if=buff.killing_machine.react|unholy=2
    actions+=/howling_blast,if=frost=2|death=2
    actions+=/obliterate,if=unholy>=1
    actions+=/howling_blast
    actions+=/blood_tap,if=talent.blood_tap.enabled
    actions+=/death_and_decay
    actions+=/horn_of_winter
    actions+=/frost_strike
    actions+=/plague_leech,if=talent.plague_leech.enabled
    actions+=/empower_rune_weapon
    (Note: I took out some lines that were for PoF/ERW with trinkets/potion, and unholy blight)

    And the following is my understanding of it:

    1. Plague Leech if there are less than 3 sec on either Blood Plague or Frost Fever. In practice this becomes a matter of keeping an eye on Blood Plague since we're constantly refreshing Frost Fever.

    2. Outbreak if it's off CD and diseases need to be refreshed.

    3. Soul Reaper sub 35%

    4. Howling Blast/Plague Strike to make sure diseases are up.

    5. Frost Strike with KM up

    6. Howling Blast with rime (freezing fog) proc

    7. Frost Strike when 76 RP or higher (to avoid capping)

    8. Obliterate IF KM procs and you don't have RP for Frost Strike OR if you have 2 unholy runes.

    9. Howling Blast if you have 2 frost or 2 death runes.

    10. Obliterate when there's atleast 1 unholy rune (not death).

    11. Blood tap. This is when you have no runes for any of the above spells (HB, Obliterate), you're under 76 RP, but you don't want to Frost Strike because you don't have a KM proc. If you've done the rotation correctly up to this point, in my experience you should be turning a used up unholy rune into a death rune.

    12. Death and Decay if you have no other options, and have that one pesky unholy rune. This rarely happens and I don't think I've run into a situation where I've had to DnD single target on a boss.

    13. Horn of Winter to get RP.

    14. Frost Strike with no KM procs.

    15. Plague Leech if you have absolutely no resources.

    16. ERW if none of the above are available, though I personally just wait a sec to get a rune and save ERW for Trinkets/Potion.

    Might seem like a lot to process but once you get on a dummy and practice a bit it gets easier.

    Basically the tl;dr is with diseases up, Frost Strike with KM is your highest priority (other than soul reaper sub 35%), and you use Obliterate to get rid of unholy runes or use a KM proc when you don't have the RP for Frost Strike. Other than that Howling Blast, use Blood Tap when you have no runes up, and Plague Leech as diseases are falling off for a free rune. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
    So does this mean the start of your rotation looks like the following?

    1. outbreak
    2. pillar of frost (use 1 frost)
    3. ghoul
    4. obliterate to use 1UH and 1 frost (since you have 2 UH runes up)
    5. HB because you have 2 death runes up
    .... haven't gone beyond this in my thinking yet but just wanna make sure I have it right... is this right so far?

    Please correct me if I'm wrong.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-26 at 08:29 PM ----------

    I looked at the top frost dps players for garajel spirit binder LFR and they were all using 2h and runic empowerment. gonna go with that I think.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Regen View Post
    DnD is the best damage/rune option to burn an unholy rune (using the saved frost rune on HB).

    And BT is only better than RE if you use it perfectly. If you use it improperly its worse. So to a person just beginning DW, RE might be better.
    Obliterate, maybe? Hopefully resulting in a rime proc as well. If all goes well those UH runes will be up as death runes after using BT. Obliterate hits for a lot even as dw once you get proper weapons, DnD doesn't scale from weapon dmg.

    The differences are minor though and if you don't want to min/max you can just play the way you enjoy/perform the best.

  20. #20
    I just don't like counting on "hopefully" deciding the end result of my damage :P

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