Whats with all the controversy over World First?

[Socialhealer]

But the funniest is... Paragon themselves never accepted 10 man format. I remember Al'akir. Some other guild scored a World First 10 man kill. Paragon killed him in 25 some 2 days later, it was their last boss in Tier 11... But they shouted to the whole internetz that their was the World First IN 25 MAN. Like saying that 25 man is the format that matters, and kind of ignoring the feat from the other guild.

that was because ANYONE who played wow and did al'akir heroic knows 10man was so so so much easier than 25 heroic, due to the room, 10mans had all the room in the world while 25mans had none and the damage was much worse.

paragons kill actually involved 17 manning phase 1 while 8 stayed out, so 25man was so much harder they couldnt even use 1/3rd of their raid.

any person who follows wow world firsts knows why 25man was seen as the true world first for al'akir since its difficulty was was beyond that of 10man.

personally my guild couldnt get past 40% of al'akir 25 hc, 10man hc we kill him in 20 tries 1 night.....25 man had to wait till we had firelands heroic gear.

[Kuruption]

Paragon got WF 10 man.

Method got WF 25 man.

That's how I see it anyway.

[Eadoin]

I find amuzing how much people are reluctant in accepting the World First by Paragon, because it was in 10 man.

But the funniest is... Paragon themselves never accepted 10 man format. I remember Al'akir. Some other guild scored a World First 10 man kill. Paragon killed him in 25 some 2 days later, it was their last boss in Tier 11... But they shouted to the whole internetz that their was the World First IN 25 MAN. Like saying that 25 man is the format that matters, and kind of ignoring the feat from the other guild.

I guess now their past is coming back to bite their arses. If 10 man didn't matter back then in Al'akir, then why does your current accomplishment in the Sha of Fear World First matters now? It only matters when it is Paragon now?

I actually think that's why I don't take their 10 man progression seriously to be honest. If it was another 10 man guild (even if it was another 25-failed-guild-turned-10s) it'd be different, but for how long Paragon ignored 10 mans (thank you for the Al'akir example, I had forgotten that one), called them easier, said they weren't "real" raiding I just can't take them seriously anymore.

[Deleted]

Their are now THREE world first ranks,

World First Kill: Paragon got this on Sha of Fear, plain and simple.
World First 10 man Kill: Paragon also got this one (obviously)
World First 25 man Kill: Method scored this on Sha of Fear.

This is the proper way to list rankings for future tiers.

No, there are just two:
World First 10 man Kill: Paragon got this one.
World First 25 man Kill: Method scored this on Sha of Fear.

10 and 25m are different leagues. 10m is easier by definition, since you can improve any 25m group by benching the 15 weakest players, and doing 10m instead.

It's like comparing 250 and 500cc motorcross: They each have their own ranking. A combined ranking would be meaningless, since any 250cc bike can be improved by upgrading the engine to 500cc.

[Socialhealer]

I actually think that's why I don't take their 10 man progression seriously to be honest. If it was another 10 man guild (even if it was another 25-failed-guild-turned-10s) it'd be different, but for how long Paragon ignored 10 mans (thank you for the Al'akir example, I had forgotten that one), called them easier, said they weren't "real" raiding I just can't take them seriously anymore.

well thanks to your armory i can see you killed al'akir later than i had 6/7 firelands heroic, so really u didnt know shit about the al'akir fight.

so im afraid i "just can't take you seriously anymore"

[Tojara]

Everyone is an internet lawyer trying to redefine what the word first means and in what context. All of these people have zero legal background, have a self interest in maintaining their opinion and they like everybody else in said 'discussion' aren't going to change their opinion.

In my world "first" really just means first. So overall the first guild to kill something is overall first. Then you can break it down into individual brackets of different raid sizes and give firsts out for those as well. It's okay to do that because they are mutually exclusive.

So it looks like this.

World first: Paragon
World first 10: Paragon
World first 25: Method

I really don't see how people can argue anything different. Those are clear facts and you can personally choose what you feel is more of an accomplishment. Pretty simple to me.

[Kanadei]

It's like comparing 250 and 500cc motorcross: They each have their own ranking. A combined ranking would be meaningless, since any 250cc bike can be improved by upgrading the engine to 500cc.

Well no. It's like saying 250cc and 500cc compete on the same track but 250cc has a race earlier in the day.

Which completed the circuit first? Regardless of skill or difficulty, it was obviously 250cc.

If you want to talk about relative difficulty go right ahead, but Sha of Fear hit the ground first in Paragon's raid so I would call that the world first down of Sha of Fear.

[Deleted]

Everyone is an internet lawyer trying to redefine what the word first means and in what context. All of these people have zero legal background, have a self interest in maintaining their opinion and they like everybody else in said 'discussion' aren't going to change their opinion.

WTF does a legal background have to do with raiding?

The simple fact is any 25m guild can improve its wowprogress-ranking by benching its weakest 15 players, and doing 10m instead. And any of the top 10m guilds can recruit enough players to fill a 25m roster, but its ranking would suffer.

So some guilds do it the easy way with 10m, others the hard one with 25m. Given two equal pools of players, the 10m group will always defeat the 25m one. Ergo the comparisson is meaningless.

[Kanadei]

I think people are getting sidetracked onto the usual 10 vs 25 rubbish.

We aren't here to debate which is harder or which takes more skill. We all know Paragon downed Sha of Fear first in the world. That gives them the world first.

Obviously Method downed it first in 25 man, that is an equally impressive achievement.

There is no point saying "we downed Will first in the world on normal" "omfg but heroic is the harder difficulty, that should be the REAL world first".

Frankly, that's retarded.

[Deleted]

Well no. It's like saying 250cc and 500cc compete on the same track but 250cc has a race earlier in the day.

You don't understand the analogy.

250cc and 500cc are racing simultaneously on the same track.
Can a 250cc rider defeat a 500cc one? Sure, if his skill is far superior. And it is impressive if he does.
What does it mean if a 500cc rider defeats a 250cc one? Nothing, the difference between bikes makes the comparisson meaningless.

So we have a 250cc and a 500cc ranking, and no combined one, unless a 250cc rider is leading.

250cc is 25m, 500cc is 10m.

If you want to talk about relative difficulty

No, I'm talking about relative skill: Take any 25m group, remove the 15 weakest players, and the group's average skill goes up.

Therefore given equal encounter difficulty and equal pools of players, a 10m group will defeat a 25m one.

[Kanadei]

I may have slightly misinterpreted your analogy, but you openly ignored mine.

I don't care which was harder. I don't care which took more skill. Sha of Fear died first in heroic in Paragon's raid. That is what makes it literally the world first.

If you want to talk about which is more deserving, which is harder, which takes more skill, who is a better bff irl, go ahead.

World first is pretty damn clear from where I'm sitting.

[Deleted]

What many people fail to understand is this:
Sha of fear 10 man and Sha of fear 25 man is NOT the same boss.

Sha of fear 10 is one boss - and the guild that kills it firtts has world first on that boss

Sha of fear 25 is another, diffrent, boss and the guild that kill that has world first on that boss.

If those 2 bosses was the same boss it mechanics would be extactly the same, the damage he does would be the same and his health would be the same.
This is not the case, so it is not the same boss.

Does the boss Paragon fight have the same healthpool as the boss Vodka fight?
Does the boss Paragon fight have the same damageoutput as the boss Vodka fight?
Does the boss Paragon fight fear, stun, mindcontrol, debuff the same amount of people as the boss Vodka fight?
No, no, no.
So it cant be the same boss.

Does the boss Method fight have the same healthpool as the boss Vodka fight?
Does the boss Method fight have the same damageoutput as the boss Vodka fight?
Does the boss Method fight fear, stun, mindcontrol, debuff the same amount of people as the boss Vodka fight?
Yes, yes, yes.
So it is the same boss.

This means Paragon is not in the same competition as Method, Blood Legion and so on.

Or as some one said, its not the same race.
Paragon is in a race to reach March first with 10 people
BL, Vodka and Method is in a race to reach Venus first with 25 people.
Not the same race at all as the challanges in these to races are not the same.

[Deleted]

We aren't here to debate which is harder or which takes more skill.

Yes, we are. What's the point of a world first, if it's not about difficulty or skill?

These top guilds compete against eachother on skill and effort. Their goal is to be better than the competition.

Would you accept a GM's kill on the first day, using kill-commands, as world first? No? Why not? Because it has nothing to do with skill and effort.

---------- Post added 2012-11-27 at 01:43 AM ----------

World first is pretty damn clear from where I'm sitting.

World first was undoubtedly a Blizzard GM/developer/beta-team using the kill-command.

[OneSent]

It's controversial because Blizzard decided it was a good idea to slice and dice their raid model into several different versions and now noone knows what the hell to consider a true World First.

That and the community nowadays consists of mostly competitive rank-1 "esports are the shit, you mad bro?" Call of Duty players who love the drama that comes with the World First race.

[Deleted]

What many people fail to understand is this:
Sha of fear 10 man and Sha of fear 25 man is NOT the same boss.

Sha of fear 10 is one boss - and the guild that kills it firtts has world first on that boss

Sha of fear 25 is another, diffrent, boss and the guild that kill that has world first on that boss.

But, but, but...

They have the same name, don't they?

And they have the same graphics?

So they must be the same boss! What does it matter if one has 2-3 times more health and damage output than the other?

</sarcasm>

[Kanadei]

Sha of fear 10 man and Sha of fear 25 man is NOT the same boss.

Um, yes it is.

Same name. Same mechanics. Same instance. Same drops.

It is a different difficulty, yes, but that doesn't change whether or not it's the same boss. That is a ridiculous assumption generated solely to give credence to your argument (assumedly on the spot).

If I asked who downed Sha of Fear first - it would be whoever killed it first in normal with any group size.

If I asked who downed Sha of Fear first on heroic it would be Paragon.

If I asked who downed Sha of Fear first on 25 man heroic it would be Method.

Not sure which part of that is so hard to understand, but I'm sure if you ticket and ask blizzard if Sha of Fear in 25 and Sha of Fear in 10 are the same boss they will tell you yes, that is why the drops, name and model are IDENTICAL.

... and then probably laugh at such a retarded question.

---------- Post added 2012-11-27 at 11:52 AM ----------

Would you accept a GM's kill on the first day, using kill-commands, as world first?

I would if it was the first kill in the world on the live servers yes. Since that is what the words "world" and "first" mean when used in conjunction.

[Aqua]

the funny thing to me is sites like wowprogress or guildox that will actually downrank a guild like Blood Legion (despite them getting world first Empress) because the Europeans downed it "Faster"

That said, in my mind, 10=25 as far as progression. Congratulations to DREAM Paragon for world first Sha. Good luck on Elite Protectors, the last remaining "Challenge" in this tier of raiding

It's not so much as downgrading as in the only way to rank... The points gained from the Empress are STILL there they've just lost some when the Terrace final boss became the most relevant fight (weather that's 2 weeks of glory, or 4 months), that's how it goes. Otherwise what's the point of ranking at all if from the time the first kill is achieved the points you get don't degrade? Do you rank them on fanciest clothing in the raid? People care, so it exists. And it's the only fairly workable system that has been created thus far.

And truthfully, I don't think 10 and 25man are even comparable either, so arguing over it's 'status' really isn't in my interests. It was an overall world first by Paragon, and Method quickly snapped up the 25man world first. Good on both of them, I certainly couldn't manage that. But this thread is NOT to argue semantics like that. I've raided in both, they're not the same, but a world first is still a world first. Opinions going to opinion.

[Deleted]

Um, yes it is.

Same name. Same mechanics. Same instance. Same drops.

It is a different difficulty, yes, but that doesn't change whether or not it's the same boss. That is a ridiculous assumption generated solely to give credence to your argument (assumedly on the spot).

If I asked who downed Sha of Fear first - it would be whoever killed it first in normal with any group size.

If I asked who downed Sha of Fear first on heroic it would be Paragon.

If I asked who downed Sha of Fear first on 25 man heroic it would be Method.

Not sure which part of that is so hard to understand, but I'm sure if you ticket and ask blizzard if Sha of Fear in 25 and Sha of Fear in 10 are the same boss they will tell you yes, that is why the drops, name and model are IDENTICAL.

... and then probably laugh at such a retarded question.

---------- Post added 2012-11-27 at 11:52 AM ----------



I would if it was the first kill in the world on the live servers yes. Since that is what the words "world" and "first" mean when used in conjunction.

Nope you are wrong. Sorry.

[Mormolyce]

If you look at the progression of 25m versus 10m guilds at the top of the ladder, the overwhelming majority of 25m guilds pretty conclusively proves that a complete HM clear on 10m is actually HARDER.

What a lot of people forget is there's a huge difference between a guild like Paragon/Method/etc doing 10m vs. 25m and your average raiding guild doing them. The biggest challenge for a 25m guild is getting 25 players who all play on the level (and just as important, commit the same - extreme - amount of time to the game) of the 10 players in an equivalent 10m guild. Plus all the management of that many people. So for a normal guild, 10m is intrinsically easier. But if you ARE a world first guild then you basically have your pick of the best/most committed raiders on your realm, in your zone or even in the world. So the roster integrity issue is basically taken care of, it's a whole different ball game for these guilds.

But the thing to remember is, these guys in world first guilds will do ANYTHING to win. Literally anything. And it's not just Paragon, Method and Vodka, there are a lot of other super pro guilds breaking their back trying to beat them. Do you really think that if 10m was easier there wouldn't be a significant number of those hardcore guilds swapping to 10m to beat all the 25m raiders to the world first kills? Not just this tier either, wouldn't they have done that in every tier of Cataclysm too? But no, it's always the same group of 25m guilds at the top.

I think the evidence is incontrovertible, individual bosses may be harder or easier on 10m versus 25m but when all factors are considered ultimately it is easier to get a world first full heroic clear on 25m. The only guild that can do it on 10m is Paragon, according to wowprogress the next highest 10m guild is ranked 17th!

[Kanadei]

Nope you are wrong. Sorry.

You fascinate me. Do you have a newsletter I can subscribe to so I can obtain more of these researched and well thought-out opinions?
Er.. i mean, facts?