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  1. #1

    Do you fellow Rogues think we ever get a damage buff?

    Hey guys, I was wondering, if you ever think we are going to get a damage buff in the future of MoP? Currently, the only "real" PvP spec, Sub, in my oppinion is pretty unsustainable. I still use it, but I miss the days where we weren't that bad out of Shadow Dance.

    I would like to hear as well, what you guys think the Rogue class really need right now, as we are one of the weakest class in the game at the moment? What to we need to get better, Damage? CC? Survivability? Discuss!!!

  2. #2
    Rogues scale VERY well with gear, usually better than other classes. That, in addition to a few quality-of-life and minor damage buffs, will make Sub (or any of the specs, for that matter) viable again.
    Carp - Illidan-US
    I wish I wish I was a fish.
    Rogue - Warlock

  3. #3
    My damage on target is ok. My burst is bad outside of shadowsomething, but during it is good. I feel my issue is mostly target time.

  4. #4
    To be frank, our damage output, in terms of numbers, is fine. We don't need any buffs. We need a few mechanical changes and some distribution changes; auto attacks and poisons need to deal less damage, special attacks more and target swapping needs to be less punishing.. And that's pretty much it. Fix that, and we should be PvP viable once more and even better for PvE.

  5. #5
    My dps on singletarget is more than fine, my dps on alot of mobs are WAY OP. My dps on 2-3 target is horribly bad. Same goes with add swapping.
    Overall I dont complain.

    I'm satisfied with the current balance.

  6. #6
    Bloodsail Admiral ImpTaimer's Avatar
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    Rupture/Garrote/Crimson Tempest DoT should to do more damage, especially for Sub. I would love if the DoT portion of Hemo had an accumulating effect. I also wish Eviscerate refreshed Rupture like it used to. Wtf happened to that?

    Why druids get amazing passive damage and burst over Rogues is beyond me, especially when their weapons are just stat sticks.
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Incineration View Post
    To be frank, our damage output, in terms of numbers, is fine. We don't need any buffs. We need a few mechanical changes and some distribution changes; auto attacks and poisons need to deal less damage, special attacks more and target swapping needs to be less punishing.. And that's pretty much it. Fix that, and we should be PvP viable once more and even better for PvE.
    Our burst damage with all CDs running is relatively weak compared to other classes. However our sustained dps is relatively better than others. So I guess that compensates for something, altho it does make the class rather mundane.

    A damage redistribution and a mechanical rework would be nice.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by ImpTaimer View Post
    Rupture/Garrote/Crimson Tempest DoT should to do more damage, especially for Sub. I would love if the DoT portion of Hemo had an accumulating effect. I also wish Eviscerate refreshed Rupture like it used to. Wtf happened to that?

    Why druids get amazing passive damage and burst over Rogues is beyond me, especially when their weapons are just stat sticks.
    I agree that is was fun having Eviscerate refresh Rupture, but they removed the need to keep up Recuperate by putting the energy regen into SnD. It made sense to require refreshing Rupture to keep the same number of finishers used throughout the fight.

  9. #9
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nncOKX0y5lo

    Rogue damage in PvP isn't fine. People who say otherwise either hate rogues or are delusional.
    Last edited by Maelstrom51; 2012-11-26 at 11:16 PM.

  10. #10
    Damage isn't actually the real issue in PvP. It's somewhat okay on PvP, albeit somewhat a bit lowish - but we're back at our control role, all in subtlety. Real issue is the survival part though.

  11. #11
    Speaking as an Assassination rogue:

    Rupture definitely needs a damage boost. It's only purpose right now is proc'ing Venomous Wounds. It's not fun having to throw up a pathetic DoT just to hope that you'll get some damage ticks out of it.

    And Stealth really needs to be included back into Assassination's role. Pre-MoP, ALL rogues had a huge opener-advantage with Stealth, except combat. And that was fine, since combat rogues are more swashbucklers than an attack-from-the-shadows deal. Garrote should return to it's pre-MoP state and stack with Rupture once again, for double the Venomous Wounds. Overkill should be brought back so that we can use Vanish as an offensive cooldown, and so that we aren't extremely energy-starved at the start of a fight when we try to get Rupture and SnD up. I don't think anyone disliked the option of using Vanish to gain some damage in the middle of a fight.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by ImpTaimer View Post
    Rupture/Garrote/Crimson Tempest DoT should to do more damage, especially for Sub.
    I think the CT DoT is mostly ok. The others could be increased. Garrote could be safely be quadrupled in damage, with the only change being that you might actually press it on an occasion beyond "silence this mage". Hell, often CS is the better opener versus the mage- he blinks out and then has 6 seconds of half damage.

    I would love if the DoT portion of Hemo had an accumulating effect.
    No, I would not like to be balanced around this! This idea is bad!

    I also wish Eviscerate refreshed Rupture like it used to. Wtf happened to that?
    What happened was, they put the recuperate energy gain on slice. This would have made the rotation WAY to simple, so they removed the auto refresh. It's still a simpler (and imo much worse) rotation than it Cata, but it's not as terrible as autorefresh + slice does everything would have been. IMO go back to Cata sub- it was better for everything. More fun, more demanding in pve, better rewarded in pve, and in pvp you didn't need to set up a million things to be able to do any damage at all.

    Why druids get amazing passive damage and burst over Rogues is beyond me, especially when their weapons are just stat sticks.
    Druids don't get amazing passive damage- not like rogues at least, we are the weapon masters- but their burst is largely because they actually have talents that they can stack together for great burst, and we absolutely do not. The druid class received at least six times the developer attention that the rogue class did. I'd be shocked if all three of our specs combined even got close to the effort they put into feral. Each one of their talents does different stuff for each of their four specs. They have talents that change what they are good at in pve, and they can actually combine them in different ways. Their talents clearly are more important than ours too- comparing first tiers should shock you. Hell, a resto druid can stealth faster than you if they talent speed and glyph prowl. If you talent your stealthed movement speed it only helps you when stealthed, and you are still slower than the druid prowling.

    However- druids don't just have stat sticks any more. If you disarm a druid, his damage drops through the floor. This is a great change! You reach into the cat, and you break his dumb magic stick for several seconds, it's great!

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-27 at 05:16 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom51 View Post
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nncOKX0y5lo

    Rogue damage in PvP isn't fine. People who say otherwise either hate rogues or are delusional.
    Do you think the issue is damage, or the ability to both be controlled and peeled? When the druid was in danger, he was all PEACE DAWG. NS has a one minute cooldown and undoes like everything he does, and nothing costs any mana. Is that a rogue damage issue?

    Pretend Kidney Shot did 75% the damage that an eviscerate does, how would that fight have ended? He had the druid low several times, but was unable to seal the deal because his control has massive costs, his gap closer costs him prep, and he's unable to be threatening outside easily predicted cooldowns that the druid could save HIS cooldowns to counter.

  13. #13
    Mechagnome
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    The buff is called more gear.

    I'm all for a redistribution of damage on skills (nerf the shit out of poisons on Combat, make bleeds/poisons sky high on Assassination, remove Subtlety as a spec and come up with something that isn't just bleeding into the other roles uncertain of where it's supposed to go), also utility, rogues give basically nothing to a raid aside from the attack speed aura which mysteriously turns off sometimes. Overall damage seems passable, combat is a bit meh single target but beastly on 2-3 targets. PVP side, nerf warriors, I won't have any more complaints for pvp.
    Naftc, "Hunters are the cheapest class in game and when played right are more deadly than a train plowing through a field of bunnies covered in napalm"

  14. #14
    I assume you have never played a rogue seriously?



    I'm a bit buzzed because I got comped a drink, presumably for being the oldest dude at the college bar, but here's why you don't have damned clue what you are talking about:

    The buff is called more gear.
    As it turns out, other classes also get gear. Since this thread is about pvp, and I'm willing to assume you read something, anything in the thread, we are talking about that. No one has QQed about pve damage here, so it's pretty safe to say this is about pvp.

    The issue with rogue pvp is mobility. Gear won't fix that. Rogues are a trivial percent of representation. You know how disc priests aren't viable this season? That one spec constitutes more high rated players than all specs of rogue combined.

    Gear is not the issue. What pve gear will do for rogues is make sub viable in pve. In full pvp 483 (and eventually 491 pvp gear) rogues are still a trashbag class- full of shit no one else wants and everyone else abandoned, bloated with mechanics and constraints everyone else discarded in two thousand fucking seven.

    I'm all for a redistribution of damage on skills (nerf the shit out of poisons on Combat, make bleeds/poisons sky high on Assassination, remove Subtlety as a spec
    Combat poisons are fine. Poisons are already great for assassination, number 1 on my meter. Why is assassination the bleed spec in your mind?

    I'm particularly proud of your "remove sub as a spec" claim, because sub is the only well defined spec in the whole fucking class, and Blizzard has never deleted a spec.

    You have contributed the worst post I have ever seen on this forum, and we used to have a guy that just made personal attacks all the time around here, and this is the rogue forum, so we mostly get out of class trolls spewing hatred because they can't live through a cheap shot, as if that's our fault. GRATS!


    rogues give basically nothing to a raid aside from the attack speed aura which mysteriously turns off sometimes
    Rogues could use a raid cooldown, that is true. The attack speed buff never turns off- the UI sometimes doesn't display it. Check your character sheet and you'll see it's still active, and our 5% spell damage will be as soon as we pull!

    Overall damage seems passable, combat is a bit meh single target but beastly on 2-3 targets.
    Combat on two targets is great.

    Combat on three targets is the exact same as combat on two targets, with a third target that the rest of the raid should get to, because you sure fucking aren't.


    And warriors get nerfed in a couple hours, so we get to agree on that, at least. Yayyy warriors being almost fair! Hooray!
    Last edited by Verain; 2012-11-27 at 07:38 AM.

  15. #15
    Bloodsail Admiral Imbashiethz's Avatar
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    They need to fix sub by making rupture do damage like ferals rip and give hemo bleed back the 16% dmg buff. Also need to buff backstab damage. Vanish 2min.

    Spec fixed.

  16. #16
    Stood in the Fire zanexlol's Avatar
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    We need Verain's list of changes reverted.

    And Waylay.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Imbashiethz View Post
    They need to fix sub by making rupture do damage like ferals rip and give hemo bleed back the 16% dmg buff. Also need to buff backstab damage. Vanish 2min.

    Spec fixed.
    at least we got the 2 minute vanish in 5.1, it needs the 16% to be 20% again, and make the 50% bleed buff sub gets 60 and posibbly up the ammount of snd increase mastery gives.
    for pvp -> making recoup also able to give energy per tick BUT make it like assasinations " rupture or garrote" in that you have one or the other and snd takes prio if you have both buffs so u only get energy from one source.
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelodalix View Post
    What the fuck did you just say.

  18. #18
    All I have to say in this matter is, to play rogue WELL in PvP, and I mean 2,2k+ or something, you need to fucking OWN IT UP, not like any of those lame plate melee classes that could get by with like 3 buttons if they so desired. And even well executed a rogue isn't that good in PvP cause of LOW dmg compared to other classes, CC is decent but blind needs shorter CD (this might mess up RBG but who the hell cares anyway that shit is lame).

    And secondly, rogue in PvE.. Extremely gear dependant and bad utility. Could pull off decent dps at some fights (like cleaving with combat could be awesome).. Even a patchwerk fight might be decent as assassination, but other than that we are pretty much garbage, might as well remove us from the game and replace every rogue with a monk/feral druid. Thats all.

    edit: And yes. We do scale well with gear, but isn't that a known issue? bliz rly want rogues to be garbage until final tiers of every expansion? fuck that -.-

  19. #19
    They don't need a flat out damage buff. Rupture could use some love, and should deal significantly more damage. The changes they made actually open up the playbook more for a control role while still dealing good damage. Mobility and survival are the only things holding the class back from executing. All that passive damage means dick if you're not in melee range, and all that control is worthless with no survivability.

    I doubt we see any improvements to our survival because they said they are looking at movement. It seems they want Rogues to be the squishiest class in the game, without heals they can't survive. I mean every class has the ability to not be squishy with a collection of defensive abilities. Some were new, others were once talents given class wide, but Rogues got all that stuff taken away from them. Sure we still "have" them, but they fall short because we only get to pick one. Other classes got their favorite cake and then a nice new pie. Rogues were given a poisoned cupcake, "OMG I love cupcakes, but wait I'm still going to die..."
    Last edited by SpaceJam; 2012-11-28 at 07:22 PM.
    "Knock the world right off it's feet, and straight onto it's head."

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  20. #20
    So today i did the new daily quests and i notice a buff replaced my own buff our own Swiftblade's Cunning got replaced by a Swiftblade's Nodw/e something like that for 1h buff is unbeliveble all the ppl go there and enjoy our 10% spd buff and for us it gets replace talking about the buffs and utility the rogues provides as a small irony if u guys can see it aswell ))

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