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  1. #1

    War against boys and Male disposability

    Hi

    I wasn't able to take part in the huge discussion about men's rights. Nor did i have any desire to join an already doomed thread that quickly attracted the most biased groups and was reduced to a "who can repeat his agenda the loudest" contest.

    I hope the mods dont mind this new and fresh thread. This one is solely about the Children. The next generation that is growing up in a very different world.



    I find this lecture very interesting and it raises a lot of concerns that even I ,a 25 year old, already encountered this trend. I was a minority in my Highschool. My class was focused on Math and we were 13 boys and 14 girls. Other classes that were focusing on History or Literature were as bad as 1:8 or even 1:10. Boys are turned off by the current educational system and take lesser and lesser part in the work force of many European, American and EVEN Middle Eastern countries like Iran. This is heralded as a huge success for women, but its victims are pushed to the side line and left to fend for themselves.

    What really shocked me is how Colleges and Universities deal with the required Sports quotas. They simply cut funding for sports teams for boys/young males. Why is this allowed to happen? Why are male problems (clearly caused by femist laws) just allowed to contiue and disable entire generations?

    This video gives a few really interesting answers.



    Honestly who would society save 10 out of 10 times? A man or a woman? I find it really difficult to believe that there is a system focused on subjectification of women in which males die at a rate 20 to 1 at the work place. The system we have had for the last 20 000 years wasn't focused on subjication but rather on survival of humans. This survival often meant that men had to "suck it up" and "man up". This concept has been around for so long yet with the dissipation of the status of being a real man the desire to be a real man is slowing dying.

    I just think it's naive to believe that killing of what makes men real men is fair and can only lead bad things.

    NOTE: Dont derail the thread to stupid nonsense like the last ones.

    The topic is clear : Do boys suffer from programs that were designed to end unfair treatment and what can we do about it?
    Last edited by Cybran; 2012-11-27 at 07:57 PM.

  2. #2
    The Lightbringer Istaril's Avatar
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    Really, avoid the sensationalist nonsense if you can, it just look stupid. Especially using words such as 'Exile'. If you have a valid point to raise you can do it without the appeal to emotion.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Istaril View Post
    Really, avoid the sensationalist nonsense if you can, it just look stupid. Especially using words such as 'Exile'. If you have a valid point to raise you can do it without the appeal to emotion.
    The topic is clear : Do boys suffer from programs that were designed to end unfair treatment and what can we do about it?

    Happy now?

  4. #4
    Nope.

    Men are only disadvantaged in two aspects of society, custodial battles and domestic violence (try reporting domestic violence as a man).

    Sports programs being cut? I was a student athlete, male programs get a lot more attention. Thanks female programs and you have football which trumps all.

    Men are expected to take up certain roles because evolution has built us that way. It's not just a cultural construct that men are better providers and women are better caregivers (though we do exaggerate the gap between the two).

    Men fight because we are better suited for it. We labor because we are better suited for it. We suckered it up because we know there are those that depend on us.

    What you observe is the playing field being leveled for both sexes. For that to happen, one most come off its high horse and the other must be uplifted.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by pacox View Post
    Nope.

    Men are only disadvantaged in two aspects of society, custodial battles and domestic violence (try reporting domestic violence as a man).

    Sports programs being cut? I was a student athlete, male programs get a lot more attention. Thanks female programs and you have football which trumps all.

    Men are expected to take up certain roles because evolution has built us that way. It's not just a cultural construct that men are better providers and women are better caregivers (though we do exaggerate the gap between the two).

    Men fight because we are better suited for it. We labor because we are better suited for it. We suckered it up because we know there are those that depend on us.

    What you observe is the playing field being leveled for both sexes. For that to happen, one most come off its high horse and the other must be uplifted.
    You forgot the sex offender label which is very easily tagged on a male with much less effort than it takes for a woman to be labeled the same, other than that you are right.
    Can you believe it? My ISP is amazing, look

    Oh yea i forgot there was a 0. in front of the 8 ... internet service in America sucks.

  6. #6
    I find it really difficult to believe that there is a system focused on subjectification of women in which males die at a rate 20 to 1 at the work place. The system we have had for the last 20 000 years wasn't focused on subjication but rather on survival of humans.
    Yes women have been subjugated for years. If you look at how long it took woment to get the right to vote, work, or even own property then you can say that women had been forced to take the submissive role. If you look at the world around you will still see in certain parts of the world women are still living lives of subjuagtion and that has nothing to do with survial and more to do with power. As for the work place death rate that is more of the fact that men tend to choose to work more hazardous than women. I am sure there is a study out there some where that list the most hazardous jobs and I am betting that they are a mostly male field.

    In the past men were the hunters because that is the job that they were most suited to do and women were the gathers because that is the job they were most suited to do. As time changed those roles no longer became so clearly defined because now women could do almost all of the same jobs as men so they became hunters as well as gathers. Men on the other hand have been held back from taking on the role as a gather due to gender expectations for the most part.

    Now on the war against boys I do not feel there is a war against boys but I do believe that some where a long the lines we have failed them in the persuit of bring girls up to be more active in math and sciences. We have also failed them by not encourging them to be more open to non-gendered roles or by "punishing" them if they don't seem manly enough. But the blame does not lay with programs made to help women. By believing that we would have to believe that it is one or the other, help girls or help boys. The fact is we can help both of them but first we must find out where the disconnect is and how we can stop it from happening.

  7. #7
    I've always been a little disturbed that men died at a 20:1 ratio in the workplace compared to women. Now, when men are laid off in droves (2008 recession caused that) women make up a larger percentage of teh workforce than men.

    The number of women dying on the job as a percentage of workplace deaths has gone up. The ABSOLUTE numbers haven't gone up, just the percentage.

    People are crying that female deaths in the workplace are going up and something must be done about it!

    Fuckin hello? Men die at 20 times the rate of women and you didn't say a goddamn thing a year ago.

  8. #8
    Does that 20:1 death ratio include military? That would skew that number even more dramatically.

    IMO women just make a much bigger stink about things than men do, thus they get more attention about their 'needs'. Once men are truly oppressed they will put up a big stink too and get their way, like they always do.

    *~To change one's life: Start immediately. Do it flamboyantly.~*

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by muchtoohigh View Post
    Does that 20:1 death ratio include military? That would skew that number even more dramatically.

    IMO women just make a much bigger stink about things than men do, thus they get more attention about their 'needs'. Once men are truly oppressed they will put up a big stink too and get their way, like they always do.
    It does not include the military. This is civilian or public servant work.

  10. #10
    Pandaren Monk Auloria's Avatar
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    Long videos. D:

    Women have very strong lobbying power, because they tend to be very outspoken about their issues compared to men. You see the same phenomenon in breast cancer awareness versus prostate cancer awareness. I think this is a tremendously important issue. We just need to recruit some women to help bang drums about it. I think this approach is a scary one for professionals, because you have this fear that you will be seen as attacking women.

    Video 1 brings up a great point about Title IX. I think we have seen a real problem historically where womens' sports teams are not given resources on par with what men's teams have access to. However, we've come around to a completely different problem. Studies show that males have a very strong preference for sports activities compared to other activities, where as women tend to be more balanced. So you have a real interest gap: you have higher of rates of men who WANT to do sports, and more moderate rates for women, so requiring that the number in both be the same is ridiculous (and breeds resentment of female athletes, I've seen).

    The argument about the higher risk-taking rates of men as an explanation for their high concentrations at the extremes of our society (in charge vs. in jail) was an interesting one. I would still argue that it's important to have a good balance of women and men in positions of power, as there are pros and cons of risky vs conservative behavior, and it's important to have strong arguments for both at each turn.


    The male disposability argument is one that I really appreciated, as it an idea that I had been slowly formulating in recent years. The instinct for protecting women does make sense, although I think it is a concept that we will slowly discard over the years, as our population is quite stable enough that from a survival standpoint, men and women have equal importance.

    The discussion about how we treat male and female babies was lost on me, as I don't have any experience in that area.

    I disagree that there is no place for feminism. There is still a huge problem of the second-class status of women in many parts of the world. There is still even in the developed world of how some people view the role of women, and how some people treat women (domestic violence, sexual crimes, etc). In the educated society however, men are listening, men care about women as equals, and the feminist must become the equalist.

  11. #11
    Legendary! darenyon's Avatar
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    NOTE: Dont derail the thread to stupid nonsense like the last ones.
    good luck with that when you start off with "men are being subjugated by feminist laws".

    someone else getting closer to your position does not automatically lower yours.

  12. #12
    Moderator Northern Goblin's Avatar
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    The education system in Britain was reformed where grades would be less focused on examinations (where studies showed males thrived) to a coursework based grade system (where studies show females outperform males). *Note these are averages, individual examples that buck a trend matter little*

    There is (whether it's founded or not) a strong complaint that teachers focus their attention more on the female students than the males, that they aren't engaged as often. This still needs credibility as to whether or not it's true, so far reports into it have backed, dismissed or been inconclusive on a case by case study. It may well be the school you attend or the tutors you have that makes all the difference.

    That said I studied at an all boys school during my time in secondary before moving to a mixed gender school, the difference in the education was staggering. I'd gone from feeling challenged to feeling bored, whether that was the curriculum or the methods involved I've never quite nailed it down. Also this is one person's anecdotal view from the system changing since "Education, Education, Education" in the late 90's.


    Male disposability goes beyond that though. Over 95% of work related deaths are male, there are still Western countries that hold a male only compulsory military draft. Men and boys make up the majority in unemployment, (6 in 10. With university graduates being 50% more likely to end up jobless as males) homelessness, school exclusion and children put into foster care. Add to that shorter life spans, the overwhelming lead in murder victim statistics, violent crime (excluding rape) statistics, the fact that while males make up 70% of the deaths that affect both genders, only 10% of people screened for cancer are male and that the ratio of male to female suicides is 3:1.


    Now resolving these issues must not and CANNOT be fixed by simply taking the programs set up to help women who need them and helping men instead.*

    But programs need to be developed alongside, equality isn't looking at a 3:1 suicide ratio and making it 2:2. It's not about looking at cancer screening and suddenly screening half your current female base and getting men screened instead. Those programs are crucial, not only for the health and wellbeing of women, but because their experience is critical to designing and running men's programs to go alongside.

    The health and wellbeing of men and boys needs to be given more reverence, and not expect men to just suck it up.



    *I put that bit as large and as obvious as possible before someone starts another terrible strawman accusing me of wanting women to suffer so males can benefit.

  13. #13
    men are asked to pee sitting down in some countries now because of feminists

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by darenyon View Post
    good luck with that when you start off with "men are being subjugated by feminist laws".

    someone else getting closer to your position does not automatically lower yours.
    Idk about laws but theres a definite discouraging of classically masculine traits out there.

  15. #15
    Legendary! darenyon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    Idk about laws but theres a definite discouraging of classically masculine traits out there.
    "classically masculine traits" such as?

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auloria View Post
    Long videos. D:

    Women have very strong lobbying power, because they tend to be very outspoken about their issues compared to men. You see the same phenomenon in breast cancer awareness versus prostate cancer awareness. I think this is a tremendously important issue. We just need to recruit some women to help bang drums about it.
    Dude, real men don't complain. You just do what needs doing. Man the fuck up. *wink*
    The nerve is called the "nerve of awareness". You cant dissect it. Its a current that runs up the center of your spine. I dont know if any of you have sat down, crossed your legs, smoked DMT, and watch what happens... but what happens to me is this big thing goes RRRRRRRRRAAAAAWWW! up my spine and flashes in my brain... well apparently thats whats going to happen if I do this stuff...

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Raidenx View Post
    men are asked to pee sitting down in some countries now because of feminists
    Id pee on any feminist who said that. Standing.

    *~To change one's life: Start immediately. Do it flamboyantly.~*

  18. #18
    Legendary! darenyon's Avatar
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    Now resolving these issues must not and CANNOT be fixed by simply taking the programs set up to help women who need them and helping men instead.* But programs need to be developed alongside, equality isn't looking at a 3:1 suicide ratio and making it 2:2. It's not about looking at cancer screening and suddenly screening half your current female base and getting men screened instead. Those programs are crucial, not only for the health and wellbeing of women, but because their experience is critical to designing and running men's programs to go alongside.
    well thats certainly a different tune.

  19. #19
    The Insane peggleftw's Avatar
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    men complain a lot less than women.
    Too cool for a signature

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Raidenx View Post
    men are asked to pee sitting down in some countries now because of feminists
    That's the most stupid thing ever.

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