Thread: Prot question

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  1. #1

    Paragon's Tank and how to Prot

    Now I am relatively new to mop prot. I have already successfully tanked several gold cm's with ease and have tanked heroic garajal. I love stacking haste and me and my healers prefer me using divine purpose over holy avenger.

    However I was watching the paragon kill vid of empress and in the first portion of the video its a prot pally pov.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=g1GVEa8VyaI

    I noticed he is using consecration for single target, which is good if you have the free gcd, but he isn't using avenger's shield unless he gets a grand crusader proc. This was a definite eye-raiser for me as I was under the impression that it was right behind cs and judgement in usage priority. Not only this, but he will sit on it when he does have a free gcd and wait to cast other things.

    Grand crusader obviously resets the cd of avenger's shield, so why this rotation?

    Anyone?
    Last edited by silverhatred; 2012-11-26 at 09:39 PM.

  2. #2
    One thing to remember, nobody is perfect.

    What I have noticed however from watching some paragon kill videos is that their prot paladin is doing some very questionable choices in his GCD usage and that I would certainly expect more from someone in Paragon.

    He is not even using every global even when he has spells to use. Sometimes when he has both CS and Judge of CD, he uses Judge first.+

    Pretty safe to say that he is a great player, however doing his rotation, he is kind off underperforming in this department.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2012-11-26 at 09:04 PM.

  3. #3
    Fluffy Kitten Fhi's Avatar
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    Odd indeed. AS is one of our hardest hitting abilities. Not keeping it on cooldown, other HP generators permitting, is wasting Grand Crusader procs.

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  4. #4
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    Yeah, I watched the video like 10 times when it came out and wondered at what the tank was doing. I might do a mistake or two with a GCD use a pull, but that was painful to watch. Although after him having raided for endless hours I can't blame him.

  5. #5
    Well if you didn't notice some of the "dead" gcd's he is using wog on raid members.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverhatred View Post
    Well if you didn't notice some of the "dead" gcd's he is using wog on raid members.
    WoG isn't on the GCD.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fhi View Post
    Not keeping it on cooldown, other HP generators permitting, is wasting Grand Crusader procs.
    Grand Crusader will proc even if Avenger's Shield isn't on cooldown, so it's not wasting procs if he's using it for the HP.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivin View Post
    Grand Crusader will proc even if Avenger's Shield isn't on cooldown, so it's not wasting procs if he's using it for the HP.
    Wasting the damage portion of the proc is probably what he meant.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turvakapsu View Post
    Wasting the damage portion of the proc is probably what he meant.
    Yep. That's what I meant - since it's a hard hitting ability and should be used when HP generators are on cooldown (and no GC proc).

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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by silverhatred View Post
    Well if you didn't notice some of the "dead" gcd's he is using wog on raid members.
    Actually, alot of his dead GCDs was... dead GCDs...

    As turvakapsu said, the video was really painful to watch. We are not talking about 1 or 2 errors here. Looking at his spell usage in the start I am just sitting here on every second GCD "wrong, wrong wrong".

    Though, also understandable that he might be tired. Raided for a long time etc can make one do mistakes. Though personally, I would never have used footage like that for a kill video.

    No idea how long they raided there, could be exhaustion.
    Though, looking at his plays, it does not really show the signs of exhaustion.

    Around 0:42 is my favorite part. After using the crusader strike at 0:42 he holds off a GCD. Well, okay, that is not horrible, although he uses the next GCD after waiting a full GCD on reapplying consecration even though it was almost 3 seconds left on the previous consecration. So basically he waited an entire GCD just to use a 70% damage consecration over an avenger shield.

    Looking at the video, the amount of time he reapplies consecration when it is still 2-3 seconds left on the previous one over using judge, cs or as is just mindboggling.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2012-11-26 at 09:42 PM.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Turvakapsu View Post
    WoG isn't on the GCD.
    It still takes around a gcd's worth of time to mouse over the raid member who needs it the most, even if you do it right after you cast something else unless you have the cursor over his frame already its going to take a second.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-26 at 04:35 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Actually, alot of his dead GCDs was... dead GCDs...
    I said some :P

  12. #12
    I see no reason to lose a GCD to heal someone with WoG. You can still spam your rotation, especially if you use a mouseover macro.

    Lets for the sake of the argument say you run with Word of Glory on 1, CS on 2 and Judge on 3.

    You can simply Press 2, mouseover someone, press 1, and then press 3 again without losing any uptime or retargeting from the boss.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverhatred View Post
    It still takes around a gcd's worth of time to mouse over the raid member who needs it the most, even if you do it right after you cast something else unless you have the cursor over his frame already its going to take a second.
    Any decent player will use keybinds for abilities and mouseover macros for WoG, LoH, hands etc. You shouldn't limit yourself any more than the game does. The amount of APM playing this game requires is extremely low and there's no excuse to losing even a part of a GCD because you were WoGing someone.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Turvakapsu View Post
    Any decent player will use keybinds for abilities and mouseover macros for WoG, LoH, hands etc. You shouldn't limit yourself any more than the game does. The amount of APM playing this game requires is extremely low and there's no excuse to losing even a part of a GCD because you were WoGing someone.
    So if you waste part of a gcd while healing someone who is about to die then you are bad. Please. You must feel terrible that this paladin will always be considered 100x better than you because of the guild he is in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    I see no reason to lose a GCD to heal someone with WoG. You can still spam your rotation, especially if you use a mouseover macro.

    Lets for the sake of the argument say you run with Word of Glory on 1, CS on 2 and Judge on 3.

    You can simply Press 2, mouseover someone, press 1, and then press 3 again without losing any uptime or retargeting from the boss.
    I am not saying its a reason. I am saying that it happens.

    Lets get back on topic please.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by silverhatred View Post
    So if you waste part of a gcd while healing someone who is about to die then you are bad. Please. You must feel terrible that this paladin will always be considered 100x better than you because of the guild he is in.
    A bad paladin would never even notice a heal was needed.
    Though, if you waste part of a GCD when there is no point in doing so, then you are not good either. That is a big misplay. It is not like I stop my rotation every time I have to use my divine protection just because I have to move my fingers to that hotkey.

    Also, if a paladin is better than another is a matter of opinion ( which with enough data and reasoning can be backed up ). Telling if a player is better than another simply because which guild he is in, is not a valid reasoning.

    The fact that paragons paladin is ( sorry to say ) performing his rotation horribly atleast in this kill video is a fact that cannot be disputed. Whatever the reason behind it is. Given, the rotation a tank use might not be the most important when you have a group of healers and dps that are that seasoned, however, it would of course be preferred and cannot be defended. I would have assumed that being at the cutting edge of content that their tank would atleast know his rotation good ( it is not really hard ) and be able to perform it basically with his eyes closed.

    You said in your OP that it was an eye opener for you that he used HW and Cons over AS.
    Did you not notice the numerous times he used J over CS?
    The amount of times he used Cons over J and CS ( Even though he still had 2s left on Cons basically overriding his old one )
    He sometimes spending up to 2 GCDs doing NOTHING even with CS and J off cooldown.
    His very odd and seemingly random priorities. Sometimes he had both CS HW and Cons of cooldown, sometimes he casted HW, sometimes Cons, sometimes CS.
    Watching this video basically felt like he just hit a random button in his rotation.
    This is not opinion, this is fact which is supported by the video.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-27 at 02:30 AM ----------

    Just to give an example.

    0:46 - He got judge+cs ready, he uses judge before CS.
    0:49 - After using that CS, he does NOTHING for 2 GCDs.
    0:51 - After doing nothing for 2 GCDs all his spells are off cooldown. ( The CS which was his last spell cast is even back )
    He then proceeds to use the opening Holy Wrath Consecration CS J AS
    In the order
    This is funny because in almost every other situation in his fight he has prioritised Consecration ( even when consecration was still up for 2 seconds ) over HW. Yet now when he has all his spells of CD, he uses HW above everything else.

    0:56~ - After casting that AS mentioned in the last rotation order. He proceeds to do NOTHING for an entire GCD. After that GCD all his spells is off CDs again ( well not AS ). He has 16s left on his Sacred Shield, yet after that 1 GCD down time for absolutely no reason, he proceeds to refresh his SS, even though he has both CS and J to cast and he still has 16s on SS. Also, if he was planning on refreshing it? Why not do it in that GCD that he did nothing in just before.

    1:00 When he opens after that SS he actually casts HotR, kudos, 1 correct spell usage when having multiple choices, or well, not entirely since it was still 17s left on the weakened blows. So way to early to reapply. But hey, that is just a minimal damage loss and 0 HP loss compared to the previous mistakes on almost every single global in the fight, so lets let this one slide?
    Though right after that HotR even though J is off cooldown ( and has been for a long time ) he uses HW ???????
    Well, that streak of correct spell prio did not last long. After which he uses judgement -> Cons

    I do not even care to go on really. This was just a short segment of the fight. But if you look through the fight, the entire fight is like this. A few seconds after that 1:00 mark he uses wings + HA. Watch him prioritise consecration / HW over CS / J with HA active...

    I do not really care if you are a paragon fanboy or whatever, but really no defense in this matter. As I said, this goes on through the entire fight. Please, attempt to defend his actions other that possibly exhaustion from raiding to long. I would love to hear an argument. I mean, fine if this was a guild currently working on wrapping up normal modes. Though from the top guilds in the world, you expect top performance.

    To me it feels like the OP was expecting some underground secret tactic behind his rotation. The fact is, he is blatantly just failing his rotation, hard. This is fact, deal with it.

    Now, it is harsh to judge someone from just 1 fight, especially when you have no reason what is causing the misplays. Maybe his cat was walking on his keyboard or something ( happened to me quite a few times ). Though, there is nothing more to collect from this video other than on this fight on this try he failed miserably. Wether he performs perfectly on other fights / tries, we can not tell without more data. I am giving him the benefit of the doubt. Maybe something just caused him to misplay.
    Though if someone would show me a video of just his rotation use without giving context to which guild or fight it was, just saying it was the video of the rotation from a tank and spank I would assume that it was someone from a world 10000 guild-ish. Not paragons tank.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2012-11-27 at 01:41 AM.

  16. #16
    I must say i love his UI...everything i want and have no time to set(tellmewhen particulary give me headashe). About rotation...i guess it works for them so i see nothing against, maybe there is still a reason for what he is doing To be fair, raid awarness(what happens around you) is much more important then rotation...

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverhatred View Post
    So if you waste part of a gcd while healing someone who is about to die then you are bad. Please. You must feel terrible that this paladin will always be considered 100x better than you because of the guild he is in.
    What? This makes no sense at all. Of course you will heal someone if they're about to die, but you're not going to waste GCDs because of that. Please use common sense before posting.

    (Oh and it's also entirely on-topic because we're still discussing about his ability usage.)

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-27 at 09:50 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by 30cmnobaffs View Post
    I must say i love his UI...everything i want and have no time to set(tellmewhen particulary give me headashe). About rotation...i guess it works for them so i see nothing against, maybe there is still a reason for what he is doing To be fair, raid awarness(what happens around you) is much more important then rotation...
    Something 'working for me' doesn't mean at all it is optimal. A great paladin should be able to be aware of what's happening while performing optimally. Again, he was probably tired, I'll give him that, but as Firefly33 said, there's no logic behind his rotation.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by 30cmnobaffs View Post
    About rotation...i guess it works for them so i see nothing against, maybe there is still a reason for what he is doing To be fair, raid awarness(what happens around you) is much more important then rotation...
    I guess if his reasoning is to take more damage and do less damage and do less healing. Yeah, I guess that rotation would accomplish that.

    I am rather sure I could tank most raid bosses stacking spirit with my back turned against the boss because well, my healers are great and could probably carry me through that.
    I am rather sure I could also ignore moving from most mechanics that are "do not stand in x or you will take damage".

    Does not make me do it just because it "works".

  19. #19
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    There seems to be an awful amount of hostility in this thread, a mod really should consider closing it because nothing of value will come of it.

    His rotation seems to be based around two critical engenders:
    1. Prepping for spike damage to prevent deaths: My kill of this fight is on 25 so it's a different scenario, but basically you can be hit for 800k in two swings from the boss and be decimated without SoTR up. It's extremely obvious that his main goal of his rotation is to always ensure he has the means to generate a SoTR whenever it's needed outside of his usual output. This means tripping on his CS/J's serves a purpose beyond maximising SoTR output.

    This is shown by the fact that his first 3p SoTR comes at 1:25 when he experiences a spike. The next isn't for another minute, and so on.

    2. Maximising damage output with respect to vengeance.

    https://sites.google.com/site/matlab...0-5/505_AD.png

    As is fairly typical, any decent player will adjust their rotation depending on their vengeance levels. In this case he floats around 100k vengeance because of 10 mans, in the case of 25 man you see spikes of up to 400k vengeance where the rotation changes further.

    I can't find the necessary files to run the sim at 300k, which is the normal level that 25 man would be based around. Irrespective of that, he's compromised on those general desires to meet in the middle. Can't deny there's errors, with so much shit going on and heavily monitoring your damage intake you can never maintain a flawless rotation. Maybe on HM Stone Guard.

    But I can say with certainty that this isn't the train wreck you people seem to insist it is. He's up there as one of the world's best paladins irrespective of some errors in his rotation, errors that didn't prevent him from achieving a tip top empress kill.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Choice View Post
    There seems to be an awful amount of hostility in this thread, a mod really should consider closing it because nothing of value will come of it.

    His rotation seems to be based around two critical engenders:
    1. Prepping for spike damage to prevent deaths: My kill of this fight is on 25 so it's a different scenario, but basically you can be hit for 800k in two swings from the boss and be decimated without SoTR up. It's extremely obvious that his main goal of his rotation is to always ensure he has the means to generate a SoTR whenever it's needed outside of his usual output. This means tripping on his CS/J's serves a purpose beyond maximising SoTR output.

    This is shown by the fact that his first 3p SoTR comes at 1:25 when he experiences a spike. The next isn't for another minute, and so on.

    2. Maximising damage output with respect to vengeance.

    https://sites.google.com/site/matlab...0-5/505_AD.png

    As is fairly typical, any decent player will adjust their rotation depending on their vengeance levels. In this case he floats around 100k vengeance because of 10 mans, in the case of 25 man you see spikes of up to 400k vengeance where the rotation changes further.

    I can't find the necessary files to run the sim at 300k, which is the normal level that 25 man would be based around. Irrespective of that, he's compromised on those general desires to meet in the middle. Can't deny there's errors, with so much shit going on and heavily monitoring your damage intake you can never maintain a flawless rotation. Maybe on HM Stone Guard.

    But I can say with certainty that this isn't the train wreck you people seem to insist it is. He's up there as one of the world's best paladins irrespective of some errors in his rotation, errors that didn't prevent him from achieving a tip top empress kill.
    I do understand him saving the abilities for when he needs them, but even when Consecration is (quite obviously) higher up in the damage priority than AS is, refreshing a Consecration that lasts for 3 more seconds instead of using an Avenger's Shield is not optimal. Neither is not using any GCDs.

    I haven't done the boss but so far as it seems in the 10 man scene the bosses hit so little in comparison to the 25 man bosses that saving a SotR for spike damage (apart from Discs blowing up) I don't understand, especially when you delay the abilities so much in process.

    Edit: I do not mean to be hostile in any post I ever write.
    Last edited by Turvakapsu; 2012-11-27 at 03:24 PM.

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