1. #2381
    Bloodsail Admiral Decagon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Annapolis View Post
    People will differ developmentally obviously and I'd agree with you that most 18 year olds are making decisions that are childish sometimes. But, you have to draw the line somewhere because you can't keep allowing people a way out of their actions forever. Hitting 18 should hopefully be a wake-up call to a lot of people that they will be held more accountable for their actions from then on. Even some 17 year olds can be tried in count as adults.
    Oh yeah, I completely agree. I was talking about physically, mentally, and emotionally, not legally. Still, even tried as adults, people should be given more help than punishment, because maybe then they can recover.

    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    If he was in so much panic why did he go about his day normally? Why did he show little remorse? Why did he seem to take relish in his clean kill? I mean that doesn't sound like a man in panic. It sounds like an angry man who lost control and didn't call the cops because he knew he was fucking off his head.
    That's what I'm saying, he went about his day normally because he was in a state of panic and shock, he didn't have any idea what to do, he knew people would side on the kids, and he just couldn't decide what to do, so he tried to go about his day. Just because he went about his day "normally" doesn't mean that he wasn't terrified and in extreme shock and contemplating what to do. He did lose control, as would most people, which again, is why he didn't do anything, he didn't want to be seen as the antagonist whether or not he was. Again, I don't think that that quote is necessarily completely in context, and even if it was, it was probably just an attempt to justify his actions to himself, because he likely felt terrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirRobin View Post
    Also... It was a basement, who knows how well lit or not it was. My basement has small glazed windows so its dark down there with the lights off. I sure as hell would not leave them on if I was down there trying to hide.
    I didn't even think of that.
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  2. #2382
    Titan Themius's Avatar
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    Voluntary manslaughter is the killing of a human being in which the offender had no prior intent to kill and acted during "the heat of passion
    After he shot her, changed guns (so he could continue shooting her), then dragged her, and executed her. He no longer is in "the head of passion"

  3. #2383
    I am Murloc! SirRobin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    When did he say he was afraid there were others? He said he was afraid at the time that they were armed, but made no mention of other people. Also, please point out the justification for this part?

    "The complaint says Smith then grabbed a .22 revolver he was wearing and shot Kifer several times in the chest, "more shots than I needed to," he reportedly told detectives. He then dragged her body into his workshop where he had also placed Schaeffel.

    At that point, Smith told investigators, Kifer was still gasping for breath so he put the handgun under her chin and fired a bullet into her head, describing it as "a good clean finishing shot.""

    She wasn't dead yet, so he killed her.
    As far as what he's told police? Well that's where the "shock" part comes in. It can set in quickly and last for a couple of days. He may not be remembering clearly. Let's not forget police officers tendency to, how shall we say, "lead" suspects during questioning? I don't see anything about an attorney being present during questioning. Nor how long it lasted. For an old man who has just been through a traumatic experience? I suspect there are a lot more details that will come out as he mentally recovers.
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  4. #2384
    Quote Originally Posted by Raybourne View Post
    On a side note I wonder if people who advocate this man's actions are pro-life or pro-choice. You could argue that the womb is the woman's property that a fetus is invading, giving her the right to kill it if she wants.
    Yes, because letting a man plow you is equivalent to two people making a conscious decision to invade on your property uninvited with the intent of stealing something.

  5. #2385
    Titan Themius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silhouette of Seraphim View Post
    I suppose I'd be indifferent, yes.

    It would be her own fault, she shouldn't have been there in the first place.
    So let's get this clear right now.

    Woman breaks into mans house. Man captures woman, ties her up, locks her in basement, rapes her repeatedly, then tortures her to death. You'd be like "whatever she shouldn't have broken into the house"

    Wow people like you are a real problem.

  6. #2386
    I am Murloc! SirRobin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by H3llion View Post
    Shock, to drag them downstairs and blow their brains out, HA! Assuming that's what happened. If he shot them while they were running or what not but a second shot, really come on now.
    From what I've read they were coming downstairs. Not dragged downstairs.
    Sir Robin, the Not-Quite-So-Brave-As-Sir-Lancelot.
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  7. #2387
    Bloodsail Admiral Decagon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    When did he say he was afraid there were others? He said he was afraid at the time that they were armed, but made no mention of other people. Also, please point out the justification for this part?

    "The complaint says Smith then grabbed a .22 revolver he was wearing and shot Kifer several times in the chest, "more shots than I needed to," he reportedly told detectives. He then dragged her body into his workshop where he had also placed Schaeffel.

    At that point, Smith told investigators, Kifer was still gasping for breath so he put the handgun under her chin and fired a bullet into her head, describing it as "a good clean finishing shot.""

    She wasn't dead yet, so he killed her.
    It was likely a mercy shot. We can't know for certain so it would be best if we just leave the detail out or just assume one or the other happened, not argue which happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    He killed them, went about his day normally, didn't call the cops. Seemed to lack remorse and take relish in a kill. How is this shock? Sounds more like a sociopath. Stop making excuses for a fucking savage.
    I don't think you understand what shock can do to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by H3llion View Post
    Shock, to drag them downstairs and blow their brains out, HA! Assuming that's what happened. If he shot them while they were running or what not but a second shot, really come on now.
    This is not the part we're justifying with shock. In fact, most of us are saying this is where he was wrong and should be convicted of something (something less than murder, like manslaughter).
    Quote Originally Posted by Asmekiel View Post
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  8. #2388
    Quote Originally Posted by Silhouette of Seraphim View Post
    Well, ok then.

    I suppose it's unfounded because I have not ever, nor will be, ever institutionalized. Fact. Locked.

    You're just captaining the USS Makeshitup.

    All this ill-willing towards another person who's done nothing wrong on your part though, hoping I would be locked up. I'd argue that's a touch more sociopathic than me not giving a shit two shitheads ate it breaking into some old man's home.
    Come on...you think I'm more of a sociopath than you when you don't give a shit when people are killed? "captaining the USS Makeshitup" LOL

  9. #2389
    Pandaren Monk Silhouette of Seraphim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    So let's get this clear right now.

    Woman breaks into mans house. Man captures woman, ties her up, locks her in basement, rapes her repeatedly, then tortures her to death. You'd be like "whatever she shouldn't have broken into the house"

    Wow people like you are a real problem.
    Breaking into a house can't be all free TVs.

    Can you imagine such a thing?

    Everywhere would be just lousy with shitheads.
    They can dynamite Devil Reef, but that will bring no relief, Y'ha-nthlei is deeper than they know.

  10. #2390
    The Lightbringer Uennie's Avatar
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    It was fine with me until he killed them. If he hadn't killed them they'd be hoodlums but now they're martyrs. It's a hard situation, you want to be sad for them (or empathize a little), but they were robbing a house. These teen "role models" were robbing a home, and everyone's overlooking that to turn them into some kind of heroes. Everyone involved should be ashamed. They're victims of a bad circumstance that yes admittedly they placed themselves in. Everyone's at fault here, just the old man moreso because he went berserk.

  11. #2391
    Moderator Kasierith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirRobin View Post
    As far as what he's told police? Well that's where the "shock" part comes in. It can set in quickly and last for a couple of days. He may not be remembering clearly. Let's not forget police officers tendency to, how shall we say, "lead" suspects during questioning? I don't see anything about an attorney being present during questioning. Nor how long it lasted. For an old man who has just been through a traumatic experience? I suspect there are a lot more details that will come out as he mentally recovers.
    Did either article indicate anything involving shock?
    “…the whole trouble lies here. In words, words. Each one of us has within him a whole world of things, each man of us his own special world. And how can we ever come to an understanding if I put in the words I utter the sense and value of things as I see them; while you who listen to me must inevitably translate them according to the conception of things each one of you has within himself. We think we understand each other, but we never really do.”
    XKCD is always relevant. Always.

  12. #2392
    Pandaren Monk Silhouette of Seraphim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raybourne View Post
    Come on...you think I'm more of a sociopath than you when you don't give a shit when people are killed? "captaining the USS Makeshitup" LOL
    Sure. You're actively hoping something bad happens to another person.

    I just have a casual indifference.
    They can dynamite Devil Reef, but that will bring no relief, Y'ha-nthlei is deeper than they know.

  13. #2393
    I am Murloc! SirRobin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    So let's get this clear right now.

    Woman breaks into mans house. Man captures woman, ties her up, locks her in basement, rapes her repeatedly, then tortures her to death. You'd be like "whatever she shouldn't have broken into the house"

    Wow people like you are a real problem.
    In my opinion, if he rapes her, there is no reasonable way it could be concluded that he would still be justifiably afraid for his life at that point.
    Sir Robin, the Not-Quite-So-Brave-As-Sir-Lancelot.
    Who had nearly fought the Dragon of Angnor.
    Who had almost stood up to the vicious Chicken of Bristol.
    And who had personally wet himself, at the Battle of Badon Hill.

  14. #2394
    The Unstoppable Force Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    I personally think he shouldn't of shot them even if stealing. I wouldn't use a gun but if someone has to tell them to back off and call the police. If they don't back off better give a warning shot and all that and if one really feels *justified* well...do what you must even if I disagree with it.


    Sure. You're actively hoping something bad happens to another person.

    I just have a casual indifference.
    Or apathy.
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  15. #2395
    Moderator Kasierith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirRobin View Post
    In my opinion, if he rapes her, there is no reasonable way it could be concluded that he would still be justifiably afraid for his life at that point.
    But he was in "shock."
    “…the whole trouble lies here. In words, words. Each one of us has within him a whole world of things, each man of us his own special world. And how can we ever come to an understanding if I put in the words I utter the sense and value of things as I see them; while you who listen to me must inevitably translate them according to the conception of things each one of you has within himself. We think we understand each other, but we never really do.”
    XKCD is always relevant. Always.

  16. #2396
    I am Murloc! SirRobin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    Did either article indicate anything involving shock?
    Nope. Nor any indication of a defense attorney being present. Nor any indication of how long the interrogation lasted. Quite a few unanswered questions.
    Sir Robin, the Not-Quite-So-Brave-As-Sir-Lancelot.
    Who had nearly fought the Dragon of Angnor.
    Who had almost stood up to the vicious Chicken of Bristol.
    And who had personally wet himself, at the Battle of Badon Hill.

  17. #2397
    99% of the posters defending the actions of mr smith here simply ignore how law works in cases like this.
    There is such thing as EXCESS OF SELF DEFENCE.

    Not many argue the right of defending your own family and house.
    The thing is, this man stopped being the victim after the first shot.
    If someone wants to punch you and you give him a right hand, he falls down, you hit him again while he's down, the SECOND PUNCH is where the problem lies. It's not necessary once the target is NOT A THREAT to you anymore. The defence could build up a case of how the two robbers on the floor were still a threat but i cant see this being accepted.

    He also went as far as dragging bodies, changing weapon, hiding them for a day and whatnot so he really stepped PAST that line big time.
    He's definitely guilty.

  18. #2398
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    It would have been manslaughter if he just kept shooting after she was down. It became murder when he shot, his gun jammed, so he GOT ANOTHER, dragged her over to her cousin, shot her in the head. That's not manslaughter.
    What, in my non-legal expert opinion makes it manslaughter as opposed to murder are the mitigating circumstances. Circumstances he did not create. The guy had just been involved in a shootout and adrenaline alone would have him not thinking as clearly as he should be. That being said, he still did kill someone who he didn't need to, or could be reasonably expecting to think he needed to. Once again, he moved the girl before delivering the Coup De Grace. He knew she was no longer a threat but killed her anyways.

    But it's not murder IMO due to the mitigating circumstances.
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  19. #2399
    The Lightbringer Mister K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Decagon View Post
    This is not the part we're justifying with shock.
    You are talking about the "shock" when you act without thinking, something happens you are in the shock and boom you snap and shit goes down. Right?
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  20. #2400
    Moderator Kasierith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirRobin View Post
    Nope. Nor any indication of a defense attorney being present. Nor any indication of how long the interrogation lasted. Quite a few unanswered questions.
    If you're assuming that he was denied his rights as a US citizen to be legally represented, than I'll have to call that a facetious argument. You're also basing your entire discussion on a subjective hypothetical.

    As for entering no plea... perhaps its a measure of guilt.
    “…the whole trouble lies here. In words, words. Each one of us has within him a whole world of things, each man of us his own special world. And how can we ever come to an understanding if I put in the words I utter the sense and value of things as I see them; while you who listen to me must inevitably translate them according to the conception of things each one of you has within himself. We think we understand each other, but we never really do.”
    XKCD is always relevant. Always.

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