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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Auloria View Post
    I'm kind of on the fence about what he should be charged with.
    First degree murder.

    You could argue that the first shots would have been lethal, and those were legitimate.

    What happens when you murder a dying man?
    You get charged with murder. Whether or not they were dying, you are supposed to call an ambulance and file a police report. Not to execute them and then hide the body.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by obdigore View Post
    I don't have a problem with him defending his home, but I do have a problem with him shooting the one in the face after he already shot him and he fell down the stairs. Seems like at that point the kid is no longer a threat and he should have called police.

    I believe the police are in the right to charge him because he went too far. At that point he was no longer defending his home but attacking, as the kid was no longer a threat to him.
    Pretty much how I feel. That, and the fact he stashed the bodies instead of immediately calling the police. He went way too far and the police were right to charge him.

  3. #43
    Fluffy Kitten Tribunal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by obdigore View Post
    I would imagine the filed criminal complaint by the police is supported by their ballistics unit.
    Quite likely, but still not mentioned one way or the other despite heavy reference to police documents in other areas. I'm mostly sad at how terrible the article is, that should be taken as the main framework for my comments/small bit of devil's advocating (which again, is regardless of one's own personal position).

  4. #44
    Warchief IRunSoFarAway's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by obdigore View Post
    He claimed he thought they did, which was enough for him to shoot them until they were down, but not to 'finish them', the way the castle laws are written. And First-Degree is pre-meditated. So unless you can prove he knew they were coming and he set a trap, second degree (which is what he is being charged with) is the way to go :P
    Yes, whoever doesn't understand what the different degrees mean and then says someone should get first-degree this or that, please educate yourself.

    He was right to shoot them for breaking into is house, though I'm not sure why he didn't call police as soon as the two were dead, it seems strange that you would kill people who broke into your house, and then wait till the next morning to tell a neighbor to call the police.

    After reading what he said, he seems like a troubled person, but if someone broke in to my house, I would've done anything I could to protect myself, just because someone is on the ground, it doesn't mean they can't reach for their weapon and use it. They only figured out the two were unarmed after the police search, for all he knew, they could have had a weapon.
    Waaaaah this guy was mean to me! Waaaaaaaaah!

    I'm mean because you're stupid.

  5. #45
    Just a side note...either the family has adoption or the paper's got their facts wrong. The male victim apparently has a black and a white sister, via the photos given.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Auloria View Post
    That doesn't address my question. Obviously a rational person would do that and avoid any charges.
    That does address your question. You don't 'finish them' after you incapacitate them. Once they are no longer a threat to you, you have no right to use force against them. Castle Doctrine and related laws are all based on defending yourself with reasonable force. Once someone is leaving or unable to harm you, you no longer have the right to harm them, even if they are still in your house. If he shot the girl a couple times and she is down and can't move, you call the police, you don't drag her to the side then put your pistol under her chin and finish her.

  7. #47
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    it seems (and im just basing this off what i read) this guy probably could have gotten away with this had he not shot the kid in the face and then shot the girl several times and then again under the chin. i dont condone people killing other people, as it somewhat appears to have happened here, but at the same time i fully agree with a persons right to defend themselves up to and including using deadly force.

    im an avid gun enthusiast, and gun owner. i live in a state that allows us to openly carry and in my town of about 35k we have a pretty low crime rate, robberies are virtually unheard of here in my little town. it could be because most people here arent retards, or it could be because they know theres a good chance the people they want to rob have a gun.

    if i heard someone break into my house i would very clearly state that i was armed and that i would shoot whomever was present if they didnt leave if they were dumb enough to stick around and find out and made threatening gestures you can be sure theyd get shot. if they were smart enough to leave or surrender id simply call the cops and have them arrested, which is what the man should have done after he shot the boy. if the boy was no longer a threat he simply should have called the cops and waited. as for the girl? i probably wouldnt have shot her unless i seen she was armed (which is appeared she wasnt). id have told her to sit her ass on the stairs and wait for the cops, if she however made a threatening move towards me i would have shot her. definately wouldnt have shot her several times in the chest and wouldnt have shot her under the chin either.

    tldr - seems like the guy was a bit excessive with his shooting

  8. #48
    I think the thing that makes my stomache churn out of the article is the emphesis on them being popular kids. This is why the media is going down in my books.
    I play many games. WoW, Rift, D3, PoE, SC2 I will not criticize your game choice if you don't mine.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Shop Ebay View Post
    I'm surprised this hasn't turned into another gun control argument thread yet.
    Meh, this situation is too blurry to encourage a gun control debate. On one hand he was entitled to defend his home, on the other hand his reaction was grossly exagerated and can be considered murder.

    But I guess when talking about "Old man McCowski" who is a grumpy old man who lives alone in a house, you gotta expect he's not right in the head.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Gandrake View Post
    Two teens got into an old man's basement, they got dead. That's pretty much all you can take away from this story, anything else is pure speculation. Nothing more.
    *Read story of man describing how he murdered two teenagers.
    *Pretends it's just speculation.
    *Acts morally superior than everone else who realises he confessed to murder.

  11. #51
    Moderator Kasierith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nekrosislol View Post
    I think the thing that makes my stomache churn out of the article is the emphesis on them being popular kids. This is why the media is going down in my books.
    I couldn't care less about their "popularity" or the sensational pictures they put up. They could have been straight A students or meth heads for all I care. His actions clearly indicate that of a psychopath, and second degree murder is too kind for him.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by IRunSoFarAway View Post
    Yes, whoever doesn't understand what the different degrees mean and then says someone should get first-degree this or that, please educate yourself.

    He was right to shoot them for breaking into is house, though I'm not sure why he didn't call police as soon as the two were dead, it seems strange that you would kill people who broke into your house, and then wait till the next morning to tell a neighbor to call the police.

    After reading what he said, he seems like a troubled person, but if someone broke in to my house, I would've done anything I could to protect myself, just because someone is on the ground, it doesn't mean they can't reach for their weapon and use it. They only figured out the two were unarmed after the police search, for all he knew, they could have had a weapon.
    So when the girl was dragged to the guy and he placed the gun under her chin and blown her brains out, she was a threat during the dragging?

    he aggravating factors of first degree murder are a specific intent to kill, premeditation, and deliberation. In addition, murder committed by acts such as strangulation, poisoning, or lying in wait are also treated as first degree murder
    Unusual methods of execution, such as using poison or torture, are also considered to be first degree murder
    perhaps it's you who needs educating on first degree murder. Would you call dragging a dying woman you've shot over to another person you just killed and then blowing her brains out while she can't fight an "unusual method of execution"
    Last edited by Themius; 2012-11-27 at 07:21 AM.

  13. #53
    Pandaren Monk Auloria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gandrake View Post
    There is nothing you can do about it, and there never will be. All you do is sit there, get mad about it, and tell everyone who disagrees with anything you have to say, that they're a moron.

    And they probably are. But what does it accomplish? Nothing.

    Huge waste of time, nothing to be gained.
    Why do you assume we all live on our couches? I'm pretty active in my community, and I've come around on a couple issues because of internet discussions here and elsewhere.

  14. #54

    What really gets me though, is why people give a fuck.
    Bad things happen, and happen often, yes, but that doesn't mean I just stop having any sliver of compassion because of that fact.
    You now stand before the Countess.
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  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by obdigore View Post
    Fixed for accuracy. :P
    I'll bite. He wasnt committing crimes when he was shot, unlike these two idiots.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by dokilar View Post
    i dont condone people killing other people, as it somewhat appears to have happened here, but at the same time i fully agree with a persons right to defend themselves up to and including using deadly force.
    I love how all the pro-gun/pro-castle doctrine people here are all whitewashing the murders.

    It's excplictly two murders. There is no "somewhat appears" anywhere.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    So when the girl was dragged to the guy and he placed the gun under her chin and blown her brains out, she was a threat during the dragging?
    Its a thin line. He probably could have gotten away with shooting the first kid in the face after he fell down the stairs, depending on the situation, like if the kid was reaching into his coat or something. The dragging after numerous rifle and pistol shots to her body, then putting a gun under her chin and killing her is straight murder.

  18. #58
    Good, just a shame he didn't call it in after.

  19. #59
    Pandaren Monk Zogarth's Avatar
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    They were just robbers, no reason to shoot them... i dunno if it is just me because i am danish, but he should not be allowed to shoot them unless he threatened himself or someone else.

  20. #60
    Moderator Kasierith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by semaphore View Post
    I love how all the pro-gun/pro-castle doctrine people here are all whitewashing the murders.

    It's excplictly two murders. There is no "somewhat appears" anywhere.
    In all fairness, most people who prattle on about castle doctrine don't understand the limitations put on it. The second they're not a threat to your life, castle doctrine doesn't apply.

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