[Fire] 5.1 Combustion

[Serene]

Lol'd. Yes it is, this change just brought Fire down a bit to be on par with everyone else. It was needed.

If by 'on par with everyone else' you mean un-competitive compared to other pure-dps classes then yes, I agree.
There is a reason why Mages, Warlocks, Rogues and Hunters will almost always do well on the dps meters; because if they don't they don't bring a great deal to the raid utility-wise (and by utility I DON'T mean portals/healthstones/cc, I mean raid CDs) and therefore other classes become preferential. Pure DPS classes are there TO DPS; if a spec is un-competitive with other pure DPS classes it's not viable for top-tier progression and raiding.

Whilst people may not necessarily be at the top tier of raiding and progression, they still might want to optimise their play and aid their guild, and thus will roll whatever spec performs the best; which currently ISN'T Fire.
Yes, a nerf was indeed needed to bring us back into line with other classes; but one of this magnitutde? No.

[AjayxD]

Actually, what you fail to understand is that 'balance' between specs should mean that everyone can do roughly the same damage regardless of what they choose to play (as a damage spec ofc) assuming the fight isint to harsh on the mechanics.

http://simulationcraft.org/510/Raid_T14H.html

To use that link as an example, in an ideal situation as that is ofc based on a patchwerk encounter (assuming simcraft was actually 100% accurate which it isint), the 'balanced' specs would be anything between 110 - 120k dps, anything outside of that is for the most part overtuned and does need nerfing down to that level. The problem with fire was that it was actually doing better according to Wol / Raidbot and so needed toning down, for the most part i agree the nerf was very abrupt and dirty, did it bring fire down to a reasonable level, yes. Do i believe arcane / affliction / frost need to be brought down, yes. You guys just got bitch slapped first,

[mrgreenthump]

Actually, what you fail to understand is that 'balance' between specs should mean that everyone can do roughly the same damage regardless of what they choose to play (as a damage spec ofc) assuming the fight isint to harsh on the mechanics.

http://simulationcraft.org/510/Raid_T14H.html

To use that link as an example, in an ideal situation as that is ofc based on a patchwerk encounter (assuming simcraft was actually 100% accurate which it isint), the 'balanced' specs would be anything between 110 - 120k dps, anything outside of that is for the most part overtuned and does need nerfing down to that level. The problem with fire was that it was actually doing better according to Wol / Raidbot and so needed toning down, for the most part i agree the nerf was very abrupt and dirty, did it bring fire down to a reasonable level, yes. Do i believe arcane / affliction / frost need to be brought down, yes. You guys just got bitch slapped first,

Go play arcane and say that after few raids, just do it.. Just shows in a single line over there that you have no clue abt how the specs are atm.. arcane dps is in no way op, sure on a patchwerk fight now arcane will pull ahead of people, but hell just make some research and you'll find out that arcane is a broken spec atm. Frost while simming incredibly aswell aint showing as top dps on anything either, so ye gg for you I guess..

[AjayxD]

Go play arcane and say that after few raids, just do it.. Just shows in a single line over there that you have no clue abt how the specs are atm.. arcane dps is in no way op, sure on a patchwerk fight now arcane will pull ahead of people, but hell just make some research and you'll find out that arcane is a broken spec atm. Frost while simming incredibly aswell aint showing as top dps on anything either, so ye gg for you I guess..

And this time, take a trip back, read the post then come back when you realise that i said 'if' these numbers were accurate, which they are not then to maintain balance you would have to tone back the top specs, i am not saying arcane is in anyway op, read what im writing and stop taking it in whatever context you feel best suits you.

Fire used to be waaaaaay ahead, it got nerfed now to the middle of the pack (somewhere around destro dps) which is fine, your not first, your not last. If none of the specs were overtuned then no one would have a problem with the fire nerf, although i can understand its very hard to accept a nerf that big even though every monkey knew fire was insanely strong and going to get nerfed.

[Serene]

Actually, what you fail to understand is that 'balance' between specs should mean that everyone can do roughly the same damage regardless of what they choose to play (as a damage spec ofc) assuming the fight isint to harsh on the mechanics.

http://simulationcraft.org/510/Raid_T14H.html

To use that link as an example, in an ideal situation as that is ofc based on a patchwerk encounter (assuming simcraft was actually 100% accurate which it isint), the 'balanced' specs would be anything between 110 - 120k dps, anything outside of that is for the most part overtuned and does need nerfing down to that level. The problem with fire was that it was actually doing better according to Wol / Raidbot and so needed toning down, for the most part i agree the nerf was very abrupt and dirty, did it bring fire down to a reasonable level, yes. Do i believe arcane / affliction / frost need to be brought down, yes. You guys just got bitch slapped first,

If your theory was correct and all classes did exactly the same dps on all encounters then the raid would have 0 melee, 1 Mage, 1 Warlock and then loads of Shadowpriests, Boomkins and Ele Shamans as the DPS makeup. Why? They simply offer more to the raid and make it easier. All the relevant caster buffs are covered, you get healthstones/battle resses, the ENTIRE point of having slightly unbalanced DPS is so that there is a reason to bring pure dps classes/melee classes. If healer hybrid classes did more dps than pure dps there would be no reason to bring pure dps other than for buffs, it's as simple as that.
There's a reason why people always cry about Rogue/Warlock/Mage DPS every single raid of every single expansion, and more often that not it's because they're doing more dps than the respective class/spec combo complaining as they are a hybrid class.

I agree Fire needed a nerf to bring it back into line with OTHER pure DPS specs, the same goes for Hunters with their Serpent Sting hotfix. Luckily for Mages, Frost and Arcane are both still viable; if they weren't and you were raiding 25man there'd be little/no need to bring a mage. That is something you need to grasp; having raid cooldowns on hybrid classes is what makes up for their slack in DPS.

[AjayxD]

Your logic is stuck in the past but w/e im not gna waste my time convincing you because that logic only works for the players trying for world first guilds and possibly down to top 200

[Serene]

Your logic is stuck in the past but w/e im not gna waste my time convincing you because that logic only works for the players trying for world first guilds and possibly down to top 200

If it were true every single guild would do it just because it would be easier to clear raids with; it doesn't only apply to "World First Guilds". The only reason you're 'not going to waste your time' trying to convince me is because my logic makes more sense than yours (not to say that your point of view isn't wrong; I WISH that all specs did the same damage and all had an equal share in raid CDs etc, but that's just not going to happen).

[mrgreenthump]

Your logic is stuck in the past but w/e im not gna waste my time convincing you because that logic only works for the players trying for world first guilds and possibly down to top 200

The thing is though, past that top 200 point, dps or cd's never matter, because you will out gear the content. But still If doing the exact same dps as an spriest or a ret pally for example, I would never bring a mage to a raid. And yes you are right raiding at hardcore level is the minority, but hell its the exact reason why fire mages got nerfed(the critical mass nerf) in the first place, they were just pulling silly numbers in t15 gear, which nobody has and top raiders will have first... and that would have made every progression raid stack fire mages next raid tier, The sad thing now is though, they will now stack arcane mages, and sit them on bosses that arcane wont work..

[Greywardenn]

how about everybody take a look at realistic DPS sims,......now let the QQ commence!!! Fire was on top and now it is dead last :

http://www.noxxic.com/wow/dps-rankings/realistic-dps

[Imnick]

I think they should call that "realistic" DPS sims

[Greywardenn]

Not sure if that was a failed grammar nazi post, in either case I love the sig lol.

[Imnick]

Nah, it's just that I don't trust Noxxic's sim results very much. They should probably put "realistic" in scare quotes, because I don't think they're all that realistic at all.
Fire's definitely not in a good place right now but it's also definitely not dead last.

[mrgreenthump]

Nah, it's just that I don't trust Noxxic's sim results very much. They should probably put "realistic" in scare quotes, because I don't think they're all that realistic at all.
Fire's definitely not in a good place right now but it's also definitely not dead last.

Thats cause its very hard to sim human actions, some will take ,4 sec to react to something some will take less, some take more, some move for 1 gcd, some move for 2 or 3, as fire you could allmost migitate movements in fights with few gcd's every now and then, and you would suffer no dps loss, with arcane you cant do that as easily cause everything that generates arcane charges has a cast time(aside from AE), so using arcane barrage nerfs your dps now, unless you can really plan on using it once ahead of time, and there aint many fights that let you do that atm..

[Greywardenn]

Nah, it's just that I don't trust Noxxic's sim results very much. They should probably put "realistic" in scare quotes, because I don't think they're all that realistic at all.
Fire's definitely not in a good place right now but it's also definitely not dead last.

I definitely agree with that but they are nowhere near the top or where they used to be,.....frost and arcane more than outdo fire with this new patch.

[Shmeh]

Lol'd. Yes it is, this change just brought Fire down a bit to be on par with everyone else. It was needed.

Want me to hold your hand on a walk through some math? I've already done it in another thread, I'll copy paste it in this thread if you'd like to feel like an idiot.