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  1. #1

    What do you think they need to do to fix Monks ?

    Monks in general, that means pvp, pve, and RP. Because monks are so bad they suck in rp too.
    From what i see, not many people want monks in their anything.

    I personally only play WindWalker Pve at the moment and i feel my dps compared to others is not that great, and could use some tweaks.
    Our filler jab could hit harder, the Black out kick dot should tick for a higher amount, just replace fists of fury i do not like it.
    I believe tiger strikes the 8% chance to proc passive we have should be added into our mastery along with our mastery at the same rate to add in more passive dps. Tiger Brew should stack faster, there might be an issue about that in higher gear levels though. Maybe all these ideas are over the top but, i like the monk class and want it to be better.

    As for pvp, from what little pvp videos i have seen they get trained hard. Perhaps they should take some survival skills from brew master and bring it over.

    also Fire breath for everyone , because fire breath.

  2. #2
    give each spec a cooldown to support their roles that doesnt involve getting tea stacks. tho i personally think windwalker is in a decent spot. i feel rest of the specs have a slow buildup.

  3. #3
    I see no problem as DPS, on my monk I often out-DPS people waaaay more geared than me in 5mans, both in AoE and in Single-target. Monks have really good CDs, from the 20% damage buff, to Xuen the white tiger, to the energy brew. Even Touch of Karma is a nice CD to use when there's big AoE damage incoming.

    Where I see a problem is as a tank. I love to tank, I have tanks of every class, and love all of them. Brewmasters are the first tanks I haven't really loved.

    They're too squishy, and I have no idea why. I do know that they're too cumbersome to use, I ABSOLUTELY HAVE to keep shuffle up, or I die, simple as that, and have to juggle between keeping shuffle, keeping aggro, managing CDs, keeping guard up, keeping the arp buff from tiger palm up (along with the guard buff up), pick up my healing spheres from gift of the ox, keep my energy below the cap, watching elusive brew stacks, purging stagger stacks, and pay attention to encounter mechanics. Its just way too hectic, and not fun at all.

    Some things I'd do to fix monk tanking would be: Increase the damned shuffle duration!!! or at least bake it onto more skills than blackout kick so I can actually spend my chi on other stuff. As it stands right now, I barely use breath of fire, or anything else for that matter, because blackout kick is too indispensable. Boosting shuffle duration, and/or baking it to more skills would make it more easier to build and keep up. This isn't an optional mitigation mechanic like the blood shield is for DKs, or savage defense is for druids, or shield block is for warriors, if as a monk you do not have shuffle up, YOU WILL DIE, END OF STORY. So, for something this vital to last so little, its just not right.

    Secondly, give them an bloody armor buff. I don't care if they have to nerf stagger to compensate. Monks just suffer too much damage right now, WAAAAY too much damage.

    And third, modify elusive brew to work the same way as tiger brew works for windwalkers. We depend on this thing a lot, and having it proc on crits isn't cool. Its not right that as a tank, crit is more valuable than actual mitigation stats.

    A better mastery wouldn't hurt. Also, allow bosses to be hit by dizzing haze. Even if they are immune to the snare. I don't care, just make bosses succeptible to dizzing haze, not only for the 3% chance to misfire (Which could save my life) but also to be able to place the dot on them for extra aggro.
    Last edited by Derah; 2012-11-25 at 05:31 AM.

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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Edds View Post
    give each spec a cooldown to support their roles that doesnt involve getting tea stacks. tho i personally think windwalker is in a decent spot. i feel rest of the specs have a slow buildup.
    I was going to suggest that, could be op though

  5. #5
    The Patient
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    I completely agree with the shuffle duration. 6 seconds is a bit too low. I would like to see it bumped up to 10 seconds. I can live with our armor being so low if we had some mechanic that would help us mitigate damage when stunned.

  6. #6
    Shuffle duration is fine really. It's just at the start it feels a bit clumpsy that you HAVE to keep spamming blackout kick. I often find myself sitting at 30+ seconds shuffle a couple minutes into a fight. Most fights start off low damage anyway, so there's no real need for clearing stagger, use guard, chi wave or other chi-spenders. Just stack it rather high so you have time to use chi on other stuff instead of keeping up shuffle in moments where you getting hammered imo. Absolutely love chi brew for this reason.

  7. #7
    I don't think Monks need to be fixed. They're just an average class and not absurdly OP like DKs were at launch. Monks are right in the middle of the class balance spectrum. Blizzard honestly did a fantastic job in that regard.

  8. #8
    Mechagnome the9tail's Avatar
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    Windwalker:
    Increase range of all melee attacks to 10ft.
    Remove Jab. Tiger palm now costs energy and generates Chi and Tiger power.
    Make the 30% ARP passive.
    Fire Blossom can target opponents and keep the snare. (wtf with that glyph).
    Disable is ranged by default. (melee CC is dumb unless you can stealth).
    Add a CD that remove the chi cost of all attacks, increases their damage and all attacks done during this time use the monks weapons in the animation.

    ============

    Make our final tier actually balanced, srsly why does every Monk need to use Xuen. I thought the idea is for all to have a use?

  9. #9
    High Overlord Mesima's Avatar
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    As a windwalker monk I feel completely satisfied with my dps. I'm usually out-dpsing people more geared then me in both 5-Mans and raids and if I'm not at the top I'm certainly in the top 5. I do wish our lv 90 talents were a bit more...exciting? I guess you could say. I think our healing is pretty good and I haven't the slightest clue about our tanking capabilities but from what I've seen we seem to be in a good spot there as well.

    I think the monk class is actually in a really good spot especially with how non-gear-dependent we are while producing big numbers.

  10. #10
    Get em neutered, pandas be everywhere...!!

  11. #11
    ww is fine in PvP imo. (Bg that is. Haven't tried arena) I thought it sucked at first but then I got geared. Only thing I have problems with are spriest, frost mages, and blood dks. Any melee class is np. Just a new class and we were behind on gear.

  12. #12
    Scarab Lord ViridianWRA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the9tail View Post
    Windwalker:
    Increase range of all melee attacks to 10ft.
    Remove Jab. Tiger palm now costs energy and generates Chi and Tiger power.
    Make the 30% ARP passive.
    Fire Blossom can target opponents and keep the snare. (wtf with that glyph).
    Disable is ranged by default. (melee CC is dumb unless you can stealth).
    Add a CD that remove the chi cost of all attacks, increases their damage and all attacks done during this time use the monks weapons in the animation.

    ============

    Make our final tier actually balanced, srsly why does every Monk need to use Xuen. I thought the idea is for all to have a use?
    Melee attacks are 5 yards, which is 15 feet.
    Remove Jab to put in.... Jab, except with a buff that Windwalker will essentially get for free in 5.1?
    See: That 5.1 Tiger Power buff.
    Take the "Skill" out of a "Skillshot"... It doesn't even incur a cost unless it hits.
    Warriors have tons of melee CC and they can't stealth.
    That last one sounds alright.

    Final tier is fine. I'm very fond of Rushing Jade Wind as a brewmaster, and Rushing Jade Wind is just as good as (better than?) Blackout Kick, save the cooldown, and also buffs AOE damage massively. Xuen is only 'required' because Monks lack a DPS cooldown that isn't tied to shitty, shitty brew. Chi Torpedo is kinda really terrible though. Kinda reaaaaaally terrible.

  13. #13
    All the changes that are coming in 5.1 are well on their way to making WW be able to hold its own in PvP. I would make a few other suggestions though.

    -I cannot stress enough how much we need tigerseye brew stacks to start at 10 for BGs/Arenas. Not having a DPS cooldown to be able to unleash at the start of a match is highly detrimental to our success.
    -Fire Blossom either needs to apply a slow as well, or the root needs to be bumped up to 4 seconds. It feels wasteful to use it to peel since its losing out on 2 full seconds of root you could have had with disable. Also needs to have a lower minimum range (lets say 5 yards), that 5-10 yard distance is our absolute killer weakness. We need SOMETHING to overcome it. If we roll players can simply run at us and we will end up on the exact opposite side, 5-10 yards away again.
    -Speaking of which... have roll apply a slow to the people we roll "through", that way players don't become "immune" to roll as they understand how to easily counter it.
    -Massively slowed movement speed while casting Fists of Fury. This way we aren't as latency dependent.
    -Either a dodge from agi buff, % damage reduction, or a simple armor buff is needed. Sparring doesn't really have that great of an uptime to matter as overall damage reduction. We don't have any passive damage reduction at all really, and we have very low armor values to boot. It could be said that our mobility is our answer, but we have 0 defense against roots except Tiger's Lust on a 30 second CD and takes a talent slot. Anything with a root or even anything above a 50% slow will catch us (even 50% slows will catch us now, and some classes still will even after the 10% movement speed buff).
    -LEG SWEEP NOT AVOIDABLE
    -Paralyze 8 second CC even from the front. Latency makes it mostly RNG whether you get the full duration or not. I can't count the times I have Paralyzed someone directly behind them, only to have 4 second CC because the game thought i was in front of them.
    -Let Roll/flying kick continue their durations even if we are rooted or in any other way stopped during it. Having a 30 second gap closer CD completely mitigated by someone's instant cast ability is very detrimental to us.
    -Paralyze not broken by blackout kick dot.
    Last edited by Vongimi; 2012-11-25 at 08:37 AM.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0H3-N9zoI5c Amazing video of 60+ devilsaurs raiding Undercity!


    My God, what a horrible creation. People seeing what they want? Thank God they tried to shy away from that. I know it pisses me off when I'm in an heroic raid, yet in the back of my head all I can think is 'some casual player is playing a heroic dungeon and not wiping.' -Vodkarn

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by the9tail View Post
    Windwalker:
    Increase range of all melee attacks to 10ft.
    Remove Jab. Tiger palm now costs energy and generates Chi and Tiger power.
    Make the 30% ARP passive.
    Fire Blossom can target opponents and keep the snare. (wtf with that glyph).
    Disable is ranged by default. (melee CC is dumb unless you can stealth).
    Add a CD that remove the chi cost of all attacks, increases their damage and all attacks done during this time use the monks weapons in the animation.

    ============

    Make our final tier actually balanced, srsly why does every Monk need to use Xuen. I thought the idea is for all to have a use?
    i see it really situacional, i love to use rushing jade wind in RBG because of the ammount of aoe healing i can do with chi wave + remist + SCK, while chi torpedo is good at 3v3 for a bonus healing and because xuen would break all the damn ccs, making chi torpedo "better than nothing"

    i agree with all your changes but especially with disable being a ranged slow/snare, i mean, just fucking look at shamans...

    and what we especially need, for serious, a glyph that cleans all the dots on the target we cast paralysis, for gods sake
    Last edited by bkw; 2012-11-25 at 09:24 AM.

  15. #15
    From a windwalker PVE pov...

    -fix Fists of Fury to be a real option for dps, not a 1% gain that you need a centennial alignment to benefit from. Fix the lost ticks with haste issue(I realize this might be inbound already). Make it usable while moving via a glyph that removes the stun in exchange. Or something like that.

    -Make our 2 set something that isn't the worst set bonus in wow history. Why on earth they thought a cd reduction on a move that is never used on cd was a good bonus escapes me. Unless they're just that dense. Obviously this could be fixed in relation to my first point being touched upon.

    -Give us a real cd ability. I like xuen but it seems a bit mandatory to me. This isn't a big deal though to me compared to the first 2.

    Aside from those 3 gripes I enjoy the class quite a bit.

  16. #16
    Dps have no burst (gotta be built up)

    healers have no kinda big CDs to inc healing or something during them "oh shit" moments, revival did seem good at 1st, but now its pretty weak, doesnt even heal people half their health. (150k / 400k+)

    final teir talents are kinda crap, as said everyone uses xuen... sure SPK was OP in 25man with the talent, but it was only semi ok in 10man. Shoulda been a cap to only heal max of 8 ppl or something, and healing numbers left the same.

    our set bonus's are useless, but msot class's are in all honesty.. so i dont rly know wot to say about that. Reducing mana cost of a flash heal... so useless lol, ill use a flash heal maybe <3x per fight, besides gara

  17. #17
    Herald of the Titans Nikkaszal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derah View Post
    They're too squishy, and I have no idea why. I do know that they're too cumbersome to use, I ABSOLUTELY HAVE to keep shuffle up, or I die, simple as that, and have to juggle between keeping shuffle, keeping aggro, managing CDs, keeping guard up, keeping the arp buff from tiger palm up (along with the guard buff up), pick up my healing spheres from gift of the ox, keep my energy below the cap, watching elusive brew stacks, purging stagger stacks, and pay attention to encounter mechanics. Its just way too hectic, and not fun at all.
    I'm not saying you're wrong for thinking this, but the majority of feedback I've heard about Brewmasters (including myself) label this as a benefit. Myself and others love the extremely past-paced nature of monk tanking, and the obscenely high skill cap that allows very well-played Brewmasters to shine as amazing tanks.

    Some things I'd do to fix monk tanking would be: Increase the damned shuffle duration!!! or at least bake it onto more skills than blackout kick so I can actually spend my chi on other stuff. As it stands right now, I barely use breath of fire, or anything else for that matter, because blackout kick is too indispensable. Boosting shuffle duration, and/or baking it to more skills would make it more easier to build and keep up. This isn't an optional mitigation mechanic like the blood shield is for DKs, or savage defense is for druids, or shield block is for warriors, if as a monk you do not have shuffle up, YOU WILL DIE, END OF STORY. So, for something this vital to last so little, its just not right.
    Thing is, there's not really a lot for Brewmasters to spend their Chi on anyway. You've got BoK, P Brew, lvl30 heal talents and BoF (also RJW, but it's essentially an AoE BoK that hits harder). Can't bake shuffle into P Brew or healing spells, because that'd be broken to the point of absurdity. So that leaves BoF. I wouldn't mind BoF giving shuffle, but only so AoE tanking hard-hitting trash and adds doesn't remain so horribly awkward.

    Secondly, give them an bloody armor buff. I don't care if they have to nerf stagger to compensate. Monks just suffer too much damage right now, WAAAAY too much damage.
    Even adding my Stagger damage to Damage Taken, I still take on average similar or less damage than pretty much any other tank I've ever run with (guild and LFR). Stagger is all you need to compensate for armor, provided you are effective at Purifying.

    And third, modify elusive brew to work the same way as tiger brew works for windwalkers. We depend on this thing a lot, and having it proc on crits isn't cool. Its not right that as a tank, crit is more valuable than actual mitigation stats.
    Crit giving EBrew stacks actually works better than "traditional" tank stacks of parry and dodge. Both avoidance stacks are in the same boat as crit - they're not guaranteed. Sometimes you'll get super lucky with it, sometimes you'll just eat twenty hits in a row. Where crit and EBrew take the advantage is that you basically store up avoidance until you want/need it. You choose your own avoidance streak.

    A better mastery wouldn't hurt. Also, allow bosses to be hit by dizzing haze. Even if they are immune to the snare. I don't care, just make bosses succeptible to dizzing haze, not only for the 3% chance to misfire (Which could save my life) but also to be able to place the dot on them for extra aggro.
    Even against something susceptible to burning, BoF + its DoT combined do less damage on average to a single target than a single BoK. Thus, even if bosses had DH on them, even if BoF gave shuffle, you wouldn't ever use it against a boss "for aggro" because BoK would still be more potent.

    Using BoF on AoE packs with Shuffle baked in - yes, this is what I want.
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  18. #18
    Monks are in a great position. It's not meant to be a OP hero class like DKs were. Good balanced position for all specs.

  19. #19
    Bosses being allowed to be hit by dizzing haze and therefore a unique debuff only applied by tank monks is not a good idea.
    And monk tanks being squishier than other tanks? Probably due to a bit lower HP pools, but they don't tend to take more damage. If you're analizing WoL for this, you have to keep in mind that the damage you absorb due to stagger is too added to you damage taken overall, (so you take about 45% more physical damage in WoL than in reality). An exception here are Challenge Modes, mostly because of the stuns.
    And to WW PvP: I think for really high rated Arena it's too broken to be fixed by such small changes that are coming in 5.1, especially the nerf to Chi Wave is quite a big nerf for WWs in the arena.
    For PvE: If you look at the top 100 logs for most bosses, you already see that monk is falling so far behind because of the lack of scaling, especially compared to fire mages (and some other classes). What would be needed to fix this? Completely rework the mastery, give a nice bonus for crits, let Xuen scale with your haste (the dot which is most part of his damage), fix FoF bug on losing ticks, buff 2H (it sucks that 2x 1H does more damage and we seem better balanced around that, but there are much more classes / specs that need 1H agi weapons compared to 2H, so most monks are stuck with 2H till they have some luck in their bonus rolls).

  20. #20
    Mechagnome
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derah View Post

    Secondly, give them an bloody armor buff. I don't care if they have to nerf stagger to compensate. Monks just suffer too much damage right now, WAAAAY too much damage.

    And third, modify elusive brew to work the same way as tiger brew works for windwalkers. We depend on this thing a lot, and having it proc on crits isn't cool. Its not right that as a tank, crit is more valuable than actual mitigation stats.

    .
    Brewmaster is ALL about active mitigation...You have to alternate between guard/ the dodge boost the brew to clear yoru staggered dmg...Complaining about the healing spheres is also ridiculous...since they always drop right beside you...

    Yes you need to mash buttons as a brewmaster...But if you think you die too often compared to other tanks, you're doing something wrong.

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