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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTrueM4gg0t View Post
    You do know that BM and SV have a lot of their dmg that scales purely with AP?
    And it scales with AP aura
    I would guess its an easy 4% dmg increase
    i would say closer to 3% hell they could of buffed it to make hawk add 40% more AP and we would still not be equal to mages and locks.

  2. #62
    Bloodsail Admiral soulcrusher's Avatar
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    Masteries where its at. the coefficent for hunters mastery is too low. the cleanest way to improve our DPS would be to buff our mastery.

  3. #63
    I would guess its an easy 4% dmg increase
    Doing the math its about a 3% to 4% increase, which for the "average" heroic raider will bring them close on about 1/8th of the fights to the 5% deviation that BLizz says is there goal... it will still leave this level of raider well behind on multi target/cleave/target swap fights. Its a band aid to keep us quite for a bit IMO.

    The problem is a 3% to 4% increase in dps will do little for the progression raider or the elite raiders that the numbers show are a full 15% to 40% behind on every fight (even the ones where we excel the best case is a 15% gap between us and the top specs: Vizier and Lei)

    Now if there are nerfs to other classes that help the 5% bring us all more in line then by all means this will work for now... but we will have to wait for the preliminary numbers next week.

    Masteries where its at. the coefficent for hunters mastery is too low.
    This is the big mystery to me, when Mastery was introduced it was touted as the way Blizz planned on tweaking dps to get it balanced... I believe the words used were: Mastery is like a knob we can turn up or down to make small increases or decreases to balance what the numbers are showing us.

    Where has the knob turning been? If SV is behind BM by 5%... turn the knob on SV mastery up 3% and see where it puts them... its not rocket science... If BM is 15% behind a firemage on ST fights then turn the knob on Firemage mastery down 10% and see what that does. (these are supjective numbers, I have no clue what they would do, just using it as an example for simple balancing purposes.)
    Last edited by jax; 2012-11-29 at 04:59 PM.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarevoc View Post
    Patch 5.1 statistics. Well, I have no clue about PvE DPS, just thought that the graphics look cool ^^
    http://www.noxxic.com/wow/dps-rankings/realistic-dps
    My ilvl is 493, well below the test ilvl, and I do shitloads more than 79k in single target. Me thinks Simcraft is talking out of its hole.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by jax View Post
    Doing the math its about a 3% to 4% increase, which for the "average" heroic raider will bring them close on about 1/8th of the fights to the 5% deviation that BLizz says is there goal... it will still leave this level of raider well behind on multi target/cleave/target swap fights. Its a band aid to keep us quite for a bit IMO.

    The problem is a 3% to 4% increase in dps will do little for the progression raider or the elite raiders that the numbers show are a full 15% to 40% behind on every fight (even the ones where we excel the best case is a 15% gap between us and the top specs: Vizier and Lei)

    Now if there are nerfs to other classes that help the 5% bring us all more in line then by all means this will work for now... but we will have to wait for the preliminary numbers next week.



    This is the big mystery to me, when Mastery was introduced it was touted as the way Blizz planned on tweaking dps to get it balanced... I believe the words used were: Mastery is like a knob we can turn up or down to make small increases or decreases to balance what the numbers are showing us.

    Where has the knob turning been? If SV is behind BM by 5%... turn the knob on SV mastery up 3% and see where it puts them... its not rocket science... If BM is 15% behind a firemage on ST fights then turn the knob on Firemage mastery down 10% and see what that does. (these are supjective numbers, I have no clue what they would do, just using it as an example for simple balancing purposes.)
    If they turn mastery up too much, everyone has to regear around items with mastery instead of crit, regem for mastery over crit (and maybe even agil), and the effects will end up not being a 3% dps increase because you added x% to the 5k mastery you expect hunters to have, but 5% because they all of a sudden run around with 10K mastery due to stacking.

  6. #66
    Oh how i remember Firelands when i'd get an anevrism trying to roll my warlock rotation and burst cds and everything in full heroic epic gear and watched in horror as blue geared hunters out-dpsed me and everyone else on pretty much everything and all of the blizzard blue posts regarding the problem were like "meh, u just need more skill"

    Oh the irony...

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Quario View Post
    Oh how i remember Firelands when i'd get an anevrism trying to roll my warlock rotation and burst cds and everything in full heroic epic gear and watched in horror as blue geared hunters out-dpsed me and everyone else on pretty much everything and all of the blizzard blue posts regarding the problem were like "meh, u just need more skill"

    Oh the irony...
    Warlocks were doing quite well in Firelands, as far as I recall. Superior, even, for their execute on rhyolith/ragnaros/beth'tilac, and dot capabilities on alysrazor/beth/rag, and aoe for rag seeds. It was probably just an issue on your part.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by jax View Post
    The problem is a 3% to 4% increase in dps will do little for the progression raider or the elite raiders that the numbers show are a full 15% to 40% behind on every fight (even the ones where we excel the best case is a 15% gap between us and the top specs: Vizier and Lei)
    And still world firsts in top guilds in the world have hunters on 1st kills, some of them even use 2 on 25 men.

    Don't know if they made a mistake by using them or if the game is more than just dps charts. I mean normaly this kind of guilds have so much min/max going around, by using 2 hunters there's gotta be something...

  9. #69
    If they turn mastery up too much,
    Thats sort of my question I guess Draco,
    I havent seen any knob turning (I may have missed some) except back when they did a bit to Wild Quiver so many months ago. Is it that what they intended with Mastery being the "tweak" knob just isnt viable or they just totally screwed the pooch when they introduced it as the "tweak" knob?

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by knightpt View Post
    And still world firsts in top guilds in the world have hunters on 1st kills, some of them even use 2 on 25 men.

    Don't know if they made a mistake by using them or if the game is more than just dps charts. I mean normaly this kind of guilds have so much min/max going around, by using 2 hunters there's gotta be something...
    Some guilds like Method and other top guilds (as well as mid-level guilds like my own) bring players of a weak class because they are dedicated members of the raid team. Also, on some fights hunters can fill gimmick roles (ice traps on heroic will, orb duty on heroic sha of fear, etc) so they have somewhat of a reason to be there. So there is something, just not anything glamorous that you were looking for.

  11. #71
    Sorry but.... you either cannot properly read, the stats changed in the 2 days since you did it, or you attempted to mislead. We are not #11 on most of the things you linked. I went to raidbots and here are the actual results that I can see edited next to it with a "#" correct me if i'm wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by jax View Post
    Spec score/ Top 100/ Max/ 2months

    Mage: 1 #1 (5 way tie)
    Lock: 2 #1
    Rogue: 3 #1
    War: 4 #1
    Druid: 5 #6
    DK: 6 #1
    Monk: 7 #7
    Pally: 8 #8
    SPriest: 9 #9
    Sham: 10 #11
    Hunter: 11 #10

    Spec score/ All Parses/ Max/ 2 months
    Hunter: 11 #9 (shadow priests and rets below BM)

    Spec score/ All Parses/ Average/ 2 months
    Hunter: 11 #11

    Spec score/ All Parses/ Default/ 2 months
    Hunter: 11 #11

    We can clearly see no matter how you put the settings in spec score hunters are dead last so lets look at Dps:

    Dps/ Top 100/ Max/ 2 months
    Hunter: 11 #10 (ahead ofspriests)

    Dps/ All Parses/ Max/ 2 months
    Hunter: 11 #10 (ahead of spriests)

    Dps/ All Parses/ Average/ 2 months
    Hunter: 11 #9 (ahead of spriests and monks)

    Dps/ All Parses/ Default/ 2 months
    Hunter: 11 #4(!!!!) (Ahead of all but rogues, mages, and locks)

    So I think that sums it up pretty well, last year I had some people say this information wasnt enough and I should look at the individual fights, so here we go... forgive me for the length but posting this now saves time later:

    Dps/ Top 100/ Max/ 2 months

    Stone Dogs: 11th #11
    Feng:10th #10
    Garajal:11th #11
    Kings:10th #9 (ahead of monks and shaman)
    Elegon: 11th #9 (ahead of monks and shaman)
    Emp: 11th #11
    Vizier: 9th #2( only mages higher)
    Bladelord: 6th #2(only mages higher)
    Garalon: 11th #11
    Windlord: 11th #10 (beats spriests)

    Dps/ All Parses/ Max/ 2 months

    Stone Dogs: 11th #11
    Feng: 11th #10 (ahead of spriests)
    Garajal: 11th #11
    Kings: 11th #9 (ahead of shaman and monks)
    Elegon: 11th #9 (ahead of shaman and monks)
    Emp: 11th #11
    Vizier: 8th #2 (behind mages)
    Bladelord:7th #2 (behind mages)
    Garalon: 11th #11
    Windlord: 11th #10 (ahead of spriests)

    Dps/ All Parses/ Average/ 2 months

    Stone Dogs:11th #11
    Feng:10th #10 (ahead of spriests)
    Garajal: 9th #9(ahead of monks and spriests)
    Kings: 7th #7
    Elegon: 10th #10
    Emp: 11th #11
    Vizier: 5th #3 (behind mages and warlocks)
    Bladelord: 10th #9 (ahead of monks and spriests)
    Garalon: 11th #11
    Windlord: 11th #10 (ahead of spriests)

    Dps/ All Parses/ Default/ 2 months

    Stone Dogs: 11th #11
    Feng: 10th #10
    Garajal: 8th #8
    Kings: 7th #7
    Elegon: 11th #11
    Emp: 10th #10
    Vizier: 5th #3 (behind mages and locks)
    Bladelord: 10th #9 (behind monks and spriests)
    Garalon: 11th #11
    Windlord: 10th #10

    In basically every scenerio according to the WOL parses posted, I do not see hunters "near the top" on any fight whatsoever as Ghostfailure said a few weeks ago, in point of fact I see what I saw back before we got buffed at the end of FL... hunters sucking the ass end of 95% of the fights and average to low on one fight that allows the pet 100% uptime on a boss (Vizier)

    Thoughts?
    I do agree that we are much weaker than the majority of other classes across the board, but it isn't quite as bad as this post makes it out to be. Do we need a buff? Fuck yea we do. Do we need misleading posts like this to do it.... the real data isn't much better, just use that.

  12. #72
    My suspicion is that Blizzard is concerned about the ability of hunters to dps pretty much fully whilst moving.


    But... yea. Needs fixed.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    My suspicion is that Blizzard is concerned about the ability of hunters to dps pretty much fully whilst moving.


    But... yea. Needs fixed.
    Well, before we could move and only lost 10% attack power from sitting in fox. Now you don't lose any and they buffed it by 5%, the problem is that even on fights that are pure single target, we still don't do very well overall. We are bad a target swapping due to pet and non pet specs being gimped, we have very little/nonexistant cleave. Our aoe isn't really good either.

  14. #74
    Someone has to be last, yes. And if the top spread was, say, 110k at the top, and hunters pulling 107k at the bottom, there wouldn't be a big issue. But when 'locks are pulling 110k and hunters are pulling 80k...

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-29 at 09:46 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Nangz View Post
    Well, before we could move and only lost 10% attack power from sitting in fox. Now you don't lose any and they buffed it by 5%, the problem is that even on fights that are pure single target, we still don't do very well overall. We are bad a target swapping due to pet and non pet specs being gimped, we have very little/nonexistant cleave. Our aoe isn't really good either.
    The addition of Aspect of the Iron Hawk means we also lost our 15% damage reduction when moving and dpsing. Given that the high-movement phases in current content also tend to be high-damage taken (properly dodged attenuation maybe being an exception) that was a pretty brutal tradeoff.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Kurgosh View Post
    Someone has to be last, yes. And if the top spread was, say, 110k at the top, and hunters pulling 107k at the bottom, there wouldn't be a big issue. But when 'locks are pulling 110k and hunters are pulling 80k...

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-29 at 09:46 PM ----------



    The addition of Aspect of the Iron Hawk means we also lost our 15% damage reduction when moving and dpsing. Given that the high-movement phases in current content also tend to be high-damage taken (properly dodged attenuation maybe being an exception) that was a pretty brutal tradeoff.
    I'm sorry? When did this become about damage reduction? While it was annoying to switch, most of the parses we are talking for most classes are near perfect, that means the player probably didn't die ( else why would they rank?). I do like the buff, but a movement and movement-survival buff does not increase our damage that we are lacking in all types, aoe, single target, and cleave.

  16. #76
    High Overlord KennyBoi3's Avatar
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    What is the current class representation for hunter? Number of top DPSers may be turned off by the playstyle of Hunters as well.

    The 5% buff to aspects might be a great boon as well. We shall see in this patch. The best you guys can do is keep pushing your best A game to see if the 5% and mobility buffs were the necessary change.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by KennyBoi3 View Post
    What is the current class representation for hunter? Number of top DPSers may be turned off by the playstyle of Hunters as well.

    The 5% buff to aspects might be a great boon as well. We shall see in this patch. The best you guys can do is keep pushing your best A game to see if the 5% and mobility buffs were the necessary change.
    Considering how well some of the remaining hunter players like Rogerbrown, Kenny, Truefire etc did in DS, I doubt it's an issue of player skill/representation. If it was possible, someone would be keeping up - no one is .

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by ihatepeople View Post
    Some guilds like Method and other top guilds (as well as mid-level guilds like my own) bring players of a weak class because they are dedicated members of the raid team. Also, on some fights hunters can fill gimmick roles (ice traps on heroic will, orb duty on heroic sha of fear, etc) so they have somewhat of a reason to be there. So there is something, just not anything glamorous that you were looking for.

    This is bullcrap. Dedicated players from min/max top of the world guilds have alts of similar gear/skill than their "mains" and they include them if the situation or the guild justifies it. This has been said multiple times by top guilds that for some fights some players get their alts for the purpose of min/maxing on certain encounters.

    Do you think a guild that has multiple sponsors (aka money flowing) would actualy hurt their chances because they want "dedicated old players" that are stubborn to play only with their "mains" if those classes are realy realy bad and making 24 other people fail for hours and hours ?

    Not realy no.
    Last edited by knightpt; 2012-11-29 at 11:46 PM.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by knightpt View Post
    This is bullcrap. Dedicated players from min/max top of the world guilds have alts of similar gear/skill than their "mains" and they include them if the situation or the guild justifies it. This has been said multiple times by top guilds that for some fights some players get their alts for the purpose of min/maxing on certain encounters.

    Do you think a guild that has multiple sponsors (aka money flowing) would actualy hurt their chances because they want "dedicated old players" that are stubborn to play only with their "mains" if those classes are realy realy bad and making 24 other people fail for hours and hours ?

    Not realy no.
    When a guy like Truefire says that his mage alt with an ilvl more then 10 below his hunter can pull more DPS then his hunter you know hunters are in a bad place. He is the only hunter for the top US raiding guild, he kinda knows what he is doing.

    Hunters need a 30% boost just to match what mages are doing while having to do half as much "work" to do their DPS.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by knightpt View Post
    This is bullcrap. Dedicated players from min/max top of the world guilds have alts of similar gear/skill than their "mains" and they include them if the situation or the guild justifies it. This has been said multiple times by top guilds that for some fights some players get their alts for the purpose of min/maxing on certain encounters.

    Do you think a guild that has multiple sponsors (aka money flowing) would actualy hurt their chances because they want "dedicated old players" that are stubborn to play only with their "mains" if those classes are realy realy bad and making 24 other people fail for hours and hours ?

    Not realy no.
    Bullcrap you say, well then that's funny considering that Method has said in the past that they don't go by what classes are weak/strong at the moment and they bring whoever they want to because they have a dedicated group of raiders that shows up and raids. They said this after their Sinestra kill in which they brought resto shamans when at that time they were the worst healers. I'm aware that top guilds have alts ready to go for certain encounters, but it doesn't change my statement.

    And I doubt that bringing a hunter to heroic Sha hurts Method's sponsorships and/or jeopardized their world first. There are better classes to bring to heroic sha, more importantly heroic bosses period. As I said, hunters are good at soaking orbs on platforms while keeping up 100% uptime on the bowmen. That's about all they excel at on that fight, hence my "gimmick" statement. Blood Legion didn't use any hunters on their Sha kill, as a matter of fact Truefire swapped to his MAGE because it does more damage even though it's 10ilvls lower than his Top 10 world geared character/hunter.

    Are you trying to pull some phantom reason that hunters are being used in kills out of your ass? Yes, really yes.

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