The numbers are in:

[vinnyboombat]

Hunters exploiting burst damage is what is hurting others performance in PvE.

[ihatepeople]

Yea, you can burst at the beginning of a fight to the high heavens as BM spec, but you can't do any worthwhile sustained damage. It's just pockets of burst that carry your mediocre dps throughout the fight.

[DarkPhoenix]

Hunters exploiting burst damage is what is hurting others performance in PvE.

Lol, rubbish.

I assume you're talking about all the PVP QQ? Noone exploited anything, Blizzard made BM into a CD based spec and didn't stop and think "Hey maybe people will blow all their CDs at once to destroy someone and won't mind being subpar til their CDs come off", thats stupidity on their part not the hunter community.

[Deleted]

Well, I can only confirm bad dps as hunter in this tier, I'm the best geared raider in my guild atm (490, rest are 479-485) but I'm hardly ever on top. I toped Elegon, Feng, Spiritkings, Vizjer but I am rock bottom on Garalon, Will, Taylak, Windlord (in SV AOE spec!). Warlock 483 geared (skilled player but still, I'm not a scrub either) tops out pretty much all fights, I barely can match him on some, while on others he's 3-8k ahead.

It's sad that pure dps class is rock bottom on DPS charts. We don't have other role offspecs, we can't give you raid CD (except for hero pet), yet we still do absymal damage. MM steady shots hit for less than say chimera shot at level 70 !!! I must mash those buttons like world class madman to do average DPS while mage waltzes his way to #1 DPS again, paying no attention to rotation.

[TheTrueM4gg0t]

Wouldn't this be very easy to fix? I mean if hunters are worst everywhere, then just increase their damage by 5% or 10%, that's just changing some numbers.

they've just done so, by increasing hawk from 10% to 15% AP, nearly 5% dmgboost :-D

[skitz0129]

Not sure what you mean but I pulled the parses from Kennyloggins guild Midwinter, if you do not know he is argueably the best PVE hunter around and if not at least top 3 or 4... what I found:

Dogs: 10th
Feng: 7th but world ranked number 1 for his spec...
Garajal:7th but world ranked number 2 for his spec...
Kings: 9th
Elegon: 11th
Emp: 15th
Vizier: 1 World rank 1
Bladelord: 9th
Garalon: 15th
Windlord: 7th
Amber: 15th
Empress: 11th with world number 1 rank for his spec and the top dps did 53k more than him...

The man can play his ass off... he runs world number 1s all the time yet he can only get top place in his guild one time? This is the problem, when hunters are played to the fullest potential they lag severely behind the other dps specs... Yes he plays with some of the best players around but thats the problem... they all play at a super high level and he cant compete with them because of his class not because of lack of skill... its a hunter issue not a player issue and it needs to be addressed.

What I also noticed is his numbers are the worst of the best, what I mean is they have 7 to 8 dps that usually does 5 to 10k more then the next tier of raiders in the group. Because of his class he ranks 7th to 9th on a lot of fights but would be less than that if some of the other players were a bit more polished...

Really? Because I see Truefire in top 3/top 5 in Blood Legions DPS quite often, though I also consider him a better Hunter than Kenny.

[Paulosio]

I do ok in my raid but I guess it's probably because at the moment i'm the best geared player in the raid.... Perhaps i'm also just playing better than many of my guildies too.

The thing that annoys me most is mages. They destroy me on single target, aoe and cleave situations. I wouldn't mind it if some classes were good on 1 fight and not so good at another fight but why is it that 1 class is good at everything (mages) while another class is mediocre at 1 thing while being bad at everything else (hunters with single target being their 1 "good thing" while being bad at everything else).

[Deleted]

Not sure what you mean but I pulled the parses from Kennyloggins guild Midwinter, if you do not know he is argueably the best PVE hunter around and if not at least top 3 or 4... what I found:

Dogs: 10th
Feng: 7th but world ranked number 1 for his spec...
Garajal:7th but world ranked number 2 for his spec...
Kings: 9th
Elegon: 11th
Emp: 15th
Vizier: 1 World rank 1
Bladelord: 9th
Garalon: 15th
Windlord: 7th
Amber: 15th
Empress: 11th with world number 1 rank for his spec and the top dps did 53k more than him...

The man can play his ass off... he runs world number 1s all the time yet he can only get top place in his guild one time? This is the problem, when hunters are played to the fullest potential they lag severely behind the other dps specs... Yes he plays with some of the best players around but thats the problem... they all play at a super high level and he cant compete with them because of his class not because of lack of skill... its a hunter issue not a player issue and it needs to be addressed.

What I also noticed is his numbers are the worst of the best, what I mean is they have 7 to 8 dps that usually does 5 to 10k more then the next tier of raiders in the group. Because of his class he ranks 7th to 9th on a lot of fights but would be less than that if some of the other players were a bit more polished...

theres tons of people who are as good as "kennyloggins-midwinter" just dont have the gear to show it. being top on wol doesnt mean much as people like it to be

[Duravian]

You hunters had your reign of terror and arrows in Cata. My turn

[Tehterokkar]

You hunters had your reign of terror and arrows in Cata. My turn

When will Mage's reign of terror end then? They've been top for all of MoP so far, Cata and Wrath.

[Truefire]

Really? Because I see Truefire in top 3/top 5 in Blood Legions DPS quite often, though I also consider him a better Hunter than Kenny.

I consider Kenny and I to be very close in skill level, with him actually being slightly better than me. I currently have more gear than kenny so I do a bit more dps but I completely agree with jax. Hunters are in a terrible place right now. I can play my mage alt with 10 less ilvls and do more damage on a lot of the fights. The logs where you saw me at the top was probably very early in the tier but recently, I have not been able to keep on my hunter unless it's pure single target.

[Deleted]

not sure if you hunterbros saw this hotfix patch note, should help out a little:



http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/2...s-november-27/

pls get this pony out of this thread

Infracted

[jmacphee9]

did you post this on blizz forums?

[Konik]

I consider Kenny and I to be very close in skill level, with him actually being slightly better than me. I currently have more gear than kenny so I do a bit more dps but I completely agree with jax. Hunters are in a terrible place right now. I can play my mage alt with 10 less ilvls and do more damage on a lot of the fights. The logs where you saw me at the top was probably very early in the tier but recently, I have not been able to keep on my hunter unless it's pure single target.

thanks for this man, I pray blizz will eventually listen at least to our best hunters

[jax]

Really? Because I see Truefire in top 3/top 5 in Blood Legions DPS quite often, though I also consider him a better Hunter than Kenny.

/sigh
The point was to randomly pick a very skilled hunter and show how he can do top in the world damage but be low in a guild filled with like skilled players... not start a debate on who is the best... jesus... and we wonder why the community thinks we are all a bunch of jokes...

theres tons of people who are as good as "kennyloggins-midwinter" just dont have the gear to show it. being top on wol doesnt mean much as people like it to be

Again... see my above comment... please try and stay on topic and not make this a pissing contest... or a "my dad can beat up your dad so he is cooler" thing.

I consider Kenny and I to be very close in skill level, with him actually being slightly better than me. I currently have more gear than kenny so I do a bit more dps but I completely agree with jax. Hunters are in a terrible place right now. I can play my mage alt with 10 less ilvls and do more damage on a lot of the fights. The logs where you saw me at the top was probably very early in the tier but recently, I have not been able to keep on my hunter unless it's pure single target.

Thank you True, I appreciate you getting the masses back on course and your endorsement of the facts brings a lot of weight to my arguement! Lets hope the others get it figured out and support the posts instead of trying to derail it....

[soulcrusher]

must admit despite loving my hunter im tempted to start levelling my mage and or lock. yes we can crank out decent numbers but it seems a lot harder for a hunter to do that than a mage. this isnt helped by the ridiculously low drop rate for our weapons. weve had one bow and zero guns(25 man).

[Asgard]

Being 11th isn't the issue by itself. Consider these two possibilities :

Mage 100k
Lock 100k
Hunter 50k

OR

Mage 100k
Lock 100k
Hunter 99k

In both cases, hunter is third, but the margin is very different obsiously. In my raids, the mage is quite always ahead, true, but the margins are not so large.

[jax]

I have received many PM's asking about the deviation of the dps, or the difference from the top spot to where hunters rank in real raw numbers. I have put together the "standard deviation" numbers and they are as follows:

Hunter v/s top spec for each fight:

DPs/ Top 100/ Max/ 2months

Dogs: -160k (49%)
Feng: -25k (18%)
Garajal: -41k (27%)
Spirit Kings: -39k (30%)
Elegon: -55k (23%)
Emp: -62k (38%)
Vizier: -17k (16%)
Bladelord: -15k (15%)
Garalon: -70k (37%)
Windlord: -151k (30%)

Dps/ All Parses/ Max/ 2 months

Dogs: -164k (48%)
Feng: -24k (17%)
Garajal: -70k (27%)
Spirit Kings: -39k (31%)
Elegon: -55k (22%)
Emp: -62k (37%)
Vizier: -18k (15%)
Bladelord: -14k (14%)
Garalon: -69k (39%)
Windlord: -69k (28%)

Dps/ All Parses/ Average/ 2 months

Dogs: -70k (39%)
Feng: -10k (10%)
Garajal: -8k (10%)
Spirit Kings: -7k (9%)
Elegon: -26k (16%)
Emp: -39k (33%)
Vizier: -4k (5%)
Bladelord: -7k (9%)
Garalon: -47k (33%)
Windlord: -74k (23%)

Dps/ All Parses/ Default Measure/ 2 Months

Dogs: -79k (40%)
Feng: -11k (10%)
Garajal: -8k (10%)
Spirit Kings: -6k (9%)
Elegon: -27k (16%)
Emp: -42k (34%)
Vizier: -4k (4%)
Bladelord: -5k (9%)
Garalon: -46k (33%)
Windlord: -80k (25%)

So what does this all mean?
The way I see it is that the more skillfully your play and skilled players you play with, the worse you will do as a hunter in comparison to the other classes. The dps deviation is pretty insane at the top levels and comes down noticeable when you get to the "average and default raiders."

This does indeed make sense when you see people posting how good hunters are and they are lfr hero's or they are beating XYZ fire mage in the guild they are in...

Played by an average person hunters are still below where it should be but not by as much and the gear/skill level will allow them to beat out far lesser skilled or geared palyers, when you get equal skill and equal gear however... hunters clearly need some help.

Thoughts?


*edit to install the % of deviation*

[Deleted]

This is a very good point... It is not just what place we come in (though we have seen that is pathetic) but also by how much are we getting beat or the "standard deviation" of the dps.

Dps/ All Parses/ Default Measure/ 2 Months

Dogs: -79k
Feng: -11k
Garajal: -8k
Spirit Kings: -6k
Elegon: -27k
Emp: -42k
Vizier: -4k
Bladelord: -5k
Garalon: -46k
Windlord: -80k


Thoughts?

With 5% extra RAP in 5.1 for all hunter specs and increased mobility due to cobra shot being castable on the move and a lot of fights being heavy movement, i except that most of those bosses that you have listed above that we are 5-10k dps lower we should be closer and within margin (bolded in quote for better reference)

On those fights we are 50-80k lower that its hopeless and its a question of class mechanics (little to no cleave, etc), and no matter of buff in numbers will help us even if blizzard decides to give us massive buffs...

[jax]

With 5% extra RAP in 5.1 for all hunter specs and increased mobility due to cobra shot being castable on the move and a lot of fights being heavy movement, i except that most of those bosses that you have listed above that we are 5-10k dps lower we should be closer and within margin (bolded in quote for better reference)

I agree 100%, the problem is your using the lowest end of numbers... so the very "average" raider will see his numbers be more competitive and that is great news.
The downside is that this buff does next to nothing for those progression raiders or the very high skilled raider... a 5% increase when you are 16% to 40% behind on every fight will not get it done unfortuneatly... as said before, this is a bandaid fix to keep the masses in check.