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  1. #1
    Stood in the Fire SaltLakeAtrocity's Avatar
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    AFF Mastery v Haste: Common Sense v Math

    Inb4 all the 'not this thread again' responses.

    If simulation-craft repeatedly produced a higher result to run with a haste-dominate build that specifically aimed for the 6637 cap than it did with a mastery-dominate build that hit the 4717 cap; would you respec for the higher breakpoint assuming the math/program's algorithm is correct, or would you trust the 'common-sense' approach that mastery yields better results than any breakpoint?
    -- We'll Dance As The Palaces Burn --

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by SaltLakeAtrocity View Post
    Inb4 all the 'not this thread again' responses.

    If simulation-craft repeatedly produced a higher result to run with a haste-dominate build that specifically aimed for the 6637 cap than it did with a mastery-dominate build that hit the 4717 cap; would you respec for the higher breakpoint assuming the math/program's algorithm is correct, or would you trust the 'common-sense' approach that mastery yields better results than any breakpoint?
    Mastery yields better results at lower gear levels. This is largely because the major haste breakpoints are unattainable without completely neglecting all other secondaries. And even then it is still very difficult to reach. At higher gear levels, typically most of your tier set, Haste becomes the better secondary up to the breakpoint you can reach. After that you should invest in Mastery again.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Twotonsteak View Post
    Mastery yields better results at lower gear levels. This is largely because the major haste breakpoints are unattainable without completely neglecting all other secondaries. And even then it is still very difficult to reach. At higher gear levels, typically most of your tier set, Haste becomes the better secondary up to the breakpoint you can reach. After that you should invest in Mastery again.
    This guy nailed it.

    IIRC you'll need to be able to maintain somewhere around 5000-6000 mastery to go for the 6637 haste threshold from which you'll (well, at least I will) go all out mastery for (I think) the rest of this tier.

  4. #4
    Stood in the Fire SaltLakeAtrocity's Avatar
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    I'm not particularily geared. Ilvl 487 equipped. http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...rhead/advanced

    Its between 4718 haste and 6608 mastery;

    and 6637 haste and 4689 mastery.

    Of course this should be noted that I'm using int gems alongside secondary stat gems due to the continuous simming of int being at or above mastery gems for me.


    The later build yields the better results, but it just seems so counter-intuitive to change my build to that when i almost quite literally so no reliable top-tiered locks using a haste-dominate build.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-24 at 10:52 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Bonkura View Post
    This guy nailed it.

    IIRC you'll need to be able to maintain somewhere around 5000-6000 mastery to go for the 6637 haste threshold from which you'll (well, at least I will) go all out mastery for (I think) the rest of this tier.
    So even though simcraft is saying otherwise, its reliable to ignore its results and go with the common-sense approach?

    I know simcraft has had its share of famous issues, just not sure if this is one of them or not.
    Last edited by SaltLakeAtrocity; 2012-11-25 at 04:03 AM.
    -- We'll Dance As The Palaces Burn --

  5. #5
    What I think speaks for the 6637 haste threshold is that you'll get right over the cap for two of your dots meaning that even though you shouldn't drop them and thus do not benefit from the extra ticks that often you'll get a longer duration on them and waste less globals on refreshing them.

    I really can't say if SimCraft is right or wrong because I haven't spent any effort in optimizing its models with action lists etc. Asking me will give you the common sense answer.

    I first went for 10% haste -> mastery until I got the Elegon trinket where I switched to 6637 haste -> mastery with full mastery gems. I've been constantly ranking throughout this tier as well as playing in a world top 30 guild. Does this mean I know for sure that my gear is optimized for each encounter? Hell no.

  6. #6
    I am Murloc! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    Simcrafts are mostly done with optimal gear or close to optimal gear.
    You can't make a raw egg taste good (low geared character) without cooking it (gearing up).
    At low gear level even pure intellect / other pure stats are fine to go with.
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Twotonsteak View Post
    Mastery yields better results at lower gear levels. This is largely because the major haste breakpoints are unattainable without completely neglecting all other secondaries. And even then it is still very difficult to reach. At higher gear levels, typically most of your tier set, Haste becomes the better secondary up to the breakpoint you can reach. After that you should invest in Mastery again.
    10/10 would bang.
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  8. #8
    Stood in the Fire SaltLakeAtrocity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bonkura View Post
    What I think speaks for the 6637 haste threshold is that you'll get right over the cap for two of your dots meaning that even though you shouldn't drop them and thus do not benefit from the extra ticks that often you'll get a longer duration on them and waste less globals on refreshing them.

    I really can't say if SimCraft is right or wrong because I haven't spent any effort in optimizing its models with action lists etc. Asking me will give you the common sense answer.

    I first went for 10% haste -> mastery until I got the Elegon trinket where I switched to 6637 haste -> mastery with full mastery gems. I've been constantly ranking throughout this tier as well as playing in a world top 30 guild. Does this mean I know for sure that my gear is optimized for each encounter? Hell no.
    When you went for the 6637 cap, did you have more mastery than haste at that point?

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-24 at 11:22 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    Simcrafts are mostly done with optimal gear or close to optimal gear.
    You can't make a raw egg taste good (low geared character) without cooking it (gearing up).
    At low gear level even pure intellect / other pure stats are fine to go with.
    I'm not sure what you mean. I uploaded my armory profile before running each sim, and ran it with my own gear.
    -- We'll Dance As The Palaces Burn --

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by SaltLakeAtrocity View Post
    Inb4 all the 'not this thread again' responses.

    If simulation-craft repeatedly produced a higher result to run with a haste-dominate build that specifically aimed for the 6637 cap than it did with a mastery-dominate build that hit the 4717 cap; would you respec for the higher breakpoint assuming the math/program's algorithm is correct, or would you trust the 'common-sense' approach that mastery yields better results than any breakpoint?
    What is "common sense" about mastery yeilding better results than any breakpoint? There is nothing common sense about that. Because the two stats are so close together that it all depends on your gear. And simming is pointless without using reforge plots for mastery and haste. Because it will show you how much dps you will get from reforging haste>mastery and vice versa.
    Perfect example of why "community" forums are poisonous to the health of a development team. These developers are wasting hundreds of hours trying to stem the tide of incessant bitchery that would never, ever abate so long as these entitled, unfortunate human beings don't get their way.

  10. #10
    Stood in the Fire SaltLakeAtrocity's Avatar
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    I was using reforge plots, up to 500. It was a giant spike upwards for the 6637 breakpoint followed by a descending slope.
    -- We'll Dance As The Palaces Burn --

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by SaltLakeAtrocity View Post
    I was using reforge plots, up to 500. It was a giant spike upwards for the 6637 breakpoint followed by a descending slope.
    Well there you go. If it's a significant increase toward the 6k threshold, then it's going to be worth hitting it for you. And all sims are doing is showing you what your spec/gear/abilities are capable of. So if using one way will get you 100k dps on your sim, and the other will get you 101k, you want to go for the higher number. Because even with all of the mistakes, rng, etc, you still want something that has the potential to be higher.
    Last edited by Last Starfighter; 2012-11-25 at 04:51 AM.
    Perfect example of why "community" forums are poisonous to the health of a development team. These developers are wasting hundreds of hours trying to stem the tide of incessant bitchery that would never, ever abate so long as these entitled, unfortunate human beings don't get their way.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by SaltLakeAtrocity View Post
    When you went for the 6637 cap, did you have more mastery than haste at that point?[COLOR="red"]
    I don't have more mastery than haste now and that was 10 item levels ago (around 485). I think I was close to 6000 mastery but I also didn't have crit on a single item. I also went for 3740 hit only.

  13. #13
    You obsess way too much over secondary stats - you've started multiple threads asking questions about haste values and what not. The difference on any reforge plot is on the order of +/- 500 DPS - looking at your logs you have bigger fish to fry than the optimal stat reforges for Patchwerk/Light Movement single target fights, which don't exist in this tier.

  14. #14
    I understand that Mastery is.. easier as a stat and does not have thresholds like haste but what really makes me wonder is why are top locks gemming expertise and mastery?

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...erdisha/simple

    For example?

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Zelol View Post
    I understand that Mastery is.. easier as a stat and does not have thresholds like haste but what really makes me wonder is why are top locks gemming expertise and mastery?

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...erdisha/simple

    For example?
    I only have a Warlock as an alt and am not familiar with the math behind the mastery vs haste issue, but could it be that the Corruption haste point is much more important for Nightfall procs? In a tier with a LOT of multidotting and short burn phases (heavy demand for shard), it might make sense that the 4717 haste mark is only as special as it is because it's Corruption, making it much more important than the UA or Agony cap. It is also tied to AoE via a Burn/Seed, making it even that more important. I don't think that the logic works that UA + Agony tick > Corruption tick (since it's about the same rating to reach each one) when you use Corruption for a lot more than simple single-target damage.

  16. #16
    Obtaining the corruption breakpoint is gold on elegon or WoE. Besides that, on pure Single target fight (yeah you read "Blade Master" right) mastery is pure gold. All the point invested in haste to gain one corruption tick every 30s or so are wasted.

    Edit : a bit extreme here, but my message is that Simcraft result must always be put in context.
    Last edited by Shauni; 2012-11-26 at 10:37 AM.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Zelol View Post
    I understand that Mastery is.. easier as a stat and does not have thresholds like haste but what really makes me wonder is why are top locks gemming expertise and mastery?

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...erdisha/simple

    For example?
    I don't judge his abilities as a player, theorycrafter or anything, but Just saying that hes gear is not perfect either. Hes gem in his belt says otherwise (160 hit/160 stam), and besides haste being better on multidot fights, he might either have simmed or believe that mastery is much better for him after 4717 breakpoint.
    Main: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...l%C3%A8/simple
    Old Main: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Needle/simple
    LFR Hero/Alt: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...astasya/simple
    Quote Originally Posted by Zefie View Post
    Everyone who does not miss Vanilla has no heart. Whoever wishes it back has no brain.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Faylo View Post
    I don't judge his abilities as a player, theorycrafter or anything, but Just saying that hes gear is not perfect either. Hes gem in his belt says otherwise (160 hit/160 stam), and besides haste being better on multidot fights, he might either have simmed or believe that mastery is much better for him after 4717 breakpoint.
    Just a quick note, I'm pretty sure that gem is an armory bug, as Hit and Stam are both blue gem stats, and don't exist on the same gem at all.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by SaltLakeAtrocity View Post
    Inb4 all the 'not this thread again' responses.

    If simulation-craft repeatedly produced a higher result to run with a haste-dominate build that specifically aimed for the 6637 cap than it did with a mastery-dominate build that hit the 4717 cap; would you respec for the higher breakpoint assuming the math/program's algorithm is correct, or would you trust the 'common-sense' approach that mastery yields better results than any breakpoint?
    Why is Mastery common sense?

    I mean. Mechanically, I'd say Haste would be 'common sense' as it means you get more ticks, and more ticks means more potential for overlapping said ticks with MG especially where movement is concerned which would impact on the effects of Mastery because of the limitation on MG uptime. But yeah, Mathematically demonstrated model/simulation when it becomes questionable is as good as you're going to get because you can't sit for the necessary amount of time in game testing to iron out all the RNG and other variables.
    Last edited by Jessicka; 2012-11-26 at 11:38 AM.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    Just a quick note, I'm pretty sure that gem is an armory bug, as Hit and Stam are both blue gem stats, and don't exist on the same gem at all.
    http://www.wowhead.com/item=76655

    Quite sure its not intended - Kinda like you said, and most likely a mistake from Blizzard Nothing major, tho.
    Main: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...l%C3%A8/simple
    Old Main: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Needle/simple
    LFR Hero/Alt: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...astasya/simple
    Quote Originally Posted by Zefie View Post
    Everyone who does not miss Vanilla has no heart. Whoever wishes it back has no brain.

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