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  1. #1

    Are Republicans Holding Tax Cuts Hostage?

    AFL-CIO is reporting while we grow more closer to the Fiscal Cliff. That's the time the government decides which programs to open and close to generate more money is on the table. It's a back and forth right now in Washington. Republicans argue for strong entitlement reform instead of raising taxes on 2 percent of the people in the United States (AKA The Richest) They want to cut into Medicaid, Medcare which are federally funded programs for poor, old and disabled. SS(Social Security) who all Americans pay into.

    They provide services such as picking a person up for a doctors apt on a bus. They cover doctor bills and RX meds. While Democrats want to to increase taxes to what they were before Bush Era Tax cuts and close loop holes and tax holes. The Republicans strongly go against raising taxes. In fact right now the senate passed a bill months ago that would allowed 98 percent of America to keep the Bush Era Tax Cuts. BUT

    It would expire for the 2 percent leading them to pay more income tax. At the end of the month of the year. In 32 days following posting of this thread. A solution HAS to be made. Both people have put something on the table or everyone goes off the cliff. Pretend for a moment(If you're not American) you are. Imagine that you're in one of these meetings. Which way would you vote?

    What would you put on the table or ask?

    It's important because it virtually will affect every person in America. Do we slash programs for the poor and needy at expense generating more money for richest Americans or do we shut off programs for them in favor of generate more money.

    http://www.aflcio.org/About/Exec-Cou...Hostage-Taking

    Article from AFL-CIO about the situation.

    Information on "Fiscal Cliff" and why it's important to reach a deal.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_fiscal_cliff

    Mini Update. Obama spoke to the American people about the Fiscal Cliff pleading with them to help. You can find the full details here.

    http://news.yahoo.com/obama-launches...-politics.html
    Last edited by FusedMass; 2012-11-29 at 01:47 AM.

  2. #2
    You know, I'm probably one of the biggest republicans I know, but something CLEARLY needs to be done, and while I'm a tad short of them affecting me, if this is the ONLY thing that is even remotely possible to get out of this financial mess we are in then it has to happen.

    This, coming from a person who can't stand what Obama has done to the country.

  3. #3
    Dreadlord larrakeyah's Avatar
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    You need strong, very strong budget cuts on almost everything: defense, welfare... etc. And you can raise taxes on the upper earners if you make strong tax cuts on the middle class. Europe has shown the US that cuts + raising taxes across all the income spectrum is a recipe for disaster.

  4. #4
    To be perfectly honest, I would extend the tax cuts, except for the rich IN EXCHANGE for a law that strictly states a person cannot, under any circumstance, receive a federal tax return of more than they paid in federal taxes. Course, no democrat would ever vote for such a heinous law, so meh.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by galluk View Post
    To be perfectly honest, I would extend the tax cuts, except for the rich IN EXCHANGE for a law that strictly states a person cannot, under any circumstance, receive a federal tax return of more than they paid in federal taxes. Course, no democrat would ever vote for such a heinous law, so meh.
    Oooh, I like that idea!

  6. #6
    I guess it's pretty clear which side of the fence you are on.

    I for one am not a big fan of progressive taxation. It should be the same across the board; no tax cuts for the rich, no tax cuts for the poor.

  7. #7
    Merely a Setback Rukentuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alturic View Post
    Oooh, I like that idea!
    Raise estate and capital gains tax rates back up to the way they were under Clinton with that bill as well then I'll be sold.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatOak View Post
    Hey, as a transabled, transethnic, non-binary, genderqueer, neo-communist, indoor-capable republican otherkin I am offended by your callous display of ignorance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cybran View Post
    Both of those links don't provide any evidence. They make unsubstantiated statements

  8. #8
    The fiscal cliff is a joke created by the media and politicians use it as a guise that they're actually working to fix something. Raising taxes on the rich would only bring in a very small fraction compared to the amount of spending increases proposed by Obama. So what's the point exactly? What they need is massive cuts across the board.

  9. #9
    Merely a Setback Rukentuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ateup View Post
    Raising taxes on the rich would only bring in a very small fraction compared to the amount of spending increases proposed by Obama. So what's the point exactly? What they need is massive cuts across the board.
    You might want to look at the FY2013 budget proposal again. Obama proposed cutting $400B from the previous deficit.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatOak View Post
    Hey, as a transabled, transethnic, non-binary, genderqueer, neo-communist, indoor-capable republican otherkin I am offended by your callous display of ignorance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cybran View Post
    Both of those links don't provide any evidence. They make unsubstantiated statements

  10. #10
    Dreadlord larrakeyah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by agash View Post
    I guess it's pretty clear which side of the fence you are on.

    I for one am not a big fan of progressive taxation. It should be the same across the board; no tax cuts for the rich, no tax cuts for the poor.
    The thing I'd do right now is to lower ALL taxes, not extending "tax cuts", tax cuts are temporary in its nature, no, lower all taxes now and for all. Implement a temporary tax raise on the richest, let's say for 6 years. If the raise is not huge it will work, if taxes on the rich are raised to the point that they become confiscatory the government won't see a dollar because the rich have the means and knowledge to evade and offshore. Common sense.

    The government needs to terminate ALL subsidies, tariffs, bailouts and political favours in general. Corporate welfare is way more damaging to the economy than personal welfare.

    Massive cuts are needed on everything: SS, defense, foreign aid...

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Rukentuts View Post
    You might want to look at the FY2013 budget proposal again. Obama proposed cutting $400B from the previous deficit.
    LOL that's a cut off the budget. Not spending. It's a trick they use and people fall for it.

  12. #12
    The Lightbringer Deadvolcanoes's Avatar
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    I dont want to see social programs get cut in order to fund an extension of the bush tax rate for the highest earners. Its basically taking money from the poor and giving it to the rich.

    Let the tax cuts expire for the top 2%, trim some money from the military, increase capital gains for those making more than $250,000, maybe increase the estate tax. Then, and only then, can we talk about cutting certain social program spending.
    It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere.

  13. #13
    Merely a Setback Rukentuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ateup View Post
    LOL that's a cut off the budget. Not spending. It's a trick they use and people fall for it.
    A budget has all the planned spending in it. You know where supplemental appropriations come from? I'll give you a hint: Congress, not Obama.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatOak View Post
    Hey, as a transabled, transethnic, non-binary, genderqueer, neo-communist, indoor-capable republican otherkin I am offended by your callous display of ignorance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cybran View Post
    Both of those links don't provide any evidence. They make unsubstantiated statements

  14. #14
    Scarab Lord Lenonis's Avatar
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    Unfortunately I think the GOP is just too entrenched in their ideology still to do what needs to be done. There are cracks appearing in the party stance, but I don't think there is enough time for the change that needs to happen to that party to happen.

    What is likely to happen, I think, is that we'll go over the fiscal bunny hill. They will then pass a bill to reduce taxes on the poor and middle class. That way the GOP can claim they didn't vote to raise taxes, and the dems will get the poor/middle class tax cuts.

    The spending cuts are a tricker situation. No one really wants to touch the military budget for some incredibly stupid reason. There is a ton of waste that can be trimmed without affecting our military effectiveness. Similar situation on social programs. There is waste and abuse that can be cut out with reforms that don't impact the overall benefits paid out to those who truly need them.

    The problem is both parties need to come together for a detailed, nuanced approach but political ideology is so blunt and crude that it will never happen.

    I don't really know how it will be resolved on the spending side. But I think my statement above is likely to be what happens on the revenue side. Might be some loopholes closed too, but we'll see.

    What I would LIKE to see is a massive effort to reform social programs to make them efficient and effective and get rid of people who abuse the system and fraud. I'd like to get the military budget streamlined so spending is focused on where it is needed and companies aren't paid to make equipment that sit unused. Of course I'd also like to see the US stop running around the middle east and do more joint efforts so we don't bear the brunt of the financial cost of these escapades.

    It's disgusting that people are trying to negotiate from a position where the biggest parts of the budget are sacred cows. The polling indicated the GOP has more to lose from inaction than the president/dems, so maybe they'll be incentivized to stop being obstructionist and actually...y'know...do their job.

  15. #15
    Dreadlord larrakeyah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lenonis View Post
    Unfortunately I think the GOP is just too entrenched in their ideology still to do what needs to be done.
    Same with democrats tbh. Both need to realise they have to cut everything.

  16. #16
    How to run a balanced budget: don't spend more than you earn, only take on debt you can responsibly afford to pay off in a reasonable amount of time, and don't make promises you can't afford to pay for.

    Why this is so complicated for the government, I'll never understand.

  17. #17
    Scarab Lord Lenonis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by larrakeyah View Post
    Same with democrats tbh. Both need to realise they have to cut everything.
    Yes. Both have their sacred cows that they are unwilling to touch -- but so far it seems the dems are more willing to compromise. Neither party is willing to go far enough to get to a middle, but the GOP is really reluctant to go even an inch.

    And really, they need to get over the ACA. It would be far more productive to propose tweaks to it rather than this constant effort to repeal it...which just isn't going to happen and is a waste of time.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-27 at 12:52 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinykong View Post
    Why this is so complicated for the government, I'll never understand.
    Because government spending has a significant affect on the economy -- and right now the economy sucks. And many politicians are too beholden to special interests (including the military-industrial complex) to take such a simple approach to things.

    Also, politicians are worried about their jobs. Many of the fixes to the economy will be unpopular because the american people as a whole don't have a good grasp of economics. They just think TAXES BAD. SPENDING BAD. GOVERNMENT BAD. And the reality is there is a lot of room in the middle to set a reasonable fiscal policy if people would get educated about the impacts.

    This whole fiscal cliff thing is a great example. A lot of people think that there is an actual fiscal disaster that will hit January 1st. Many don't realize it's a gradual change in tax rates and spending which will have an unpleasant economic impact, but it's not like the US is going broke 1/1/13.

  18. #18
    Dreadlord larrakeyah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lenonis View Post
    Yes. Both have their sacred cows that they are unwilling to touch -- but so far it seems the dems are more willing to compromise. Neither party is willing to go far enough to get to a middle, but the GOP is really reluctant to go even an inch.

    And really, they need to get over the ACA. It would be far more productive to propose tweaks to it rather than this constant effort to repeal it...which just isn't going to happen and is a waste of time.
    The ACA is a red herring. While i agree everyone should be insured, ACA won't solve the increasing insurance costs problem. You need to reform tort law to make insurance cheaper. Both parties seem silent on the issue though.

  19. #19
    No more than Democrats are holding tax hikes on the rich "hostage." It all depends on your point of view.

    It can theoretically be done either way.

    Overly simplified example using numbers from Income_tax_in_the_United_States Wikipedia page (can't post links yet) :

    $1,000,000 in income (non-dividend/cap gains)

    $250k of that is deducted for various reasons

    $750k of taxable income = $110,016.50 + 35% * $378,400 = $242,456.50 paid in income taxes.

    Increase the Rate to 39.6% and you get $259,862.90 or an increase of $17,406.40 more in taxes.

    You could instead lower the available deductions so their taxable income becomes ~$807k which at 35% tax rate would give you $260,026.50 or an increase of $17,570

    Which way is better? I don't know, but neither should be dismissed out of hand.

    To me, it seems like both sides are trying to go for a political victory (dems get to say they raised taxes on the rich, repubs get to say they didn't raise rates on the rich) rather than what will actually work. We shall see what happens...

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Rukentuts View Post
    A budget has all the planned spending in it. You know where supplemental appropriations come from? I'll give you a hint: Congress, not Obama.
    And your point is what exactly? So you're saying spending hasn't increased. And I can say the sky is green. Doesn't make it true. They can cut the budget and still increase spending. Pretty simple concept.

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